Is Mary ONLY a Catholic doctrine?

[Orthodox Christian]

If I could interrupt the anti-Catholic feeding frenzy for just a moment, I'd like to return to the subject of this thread, which is not a ccritical analysis of Rome's doctrines, but rather a survey of the doctrines of other tradiions regarding the mother of Jesus.

Eastern Orthodox tradition teaches that Mary was born of a man and a woman who were childless into old age. Joachim (Heli) and Anna prayed to the Lord and Gabriel announced to them that they would birth an exceptional child. These traditions can be found expressly in the proto-evangelion of Saint James (non-canonical).

Scripture verifies that Mary was a virgin, betrothed to Joseph. Scripture also states explicitly that Jesus had brothers, but does not state specifically that Mary had other children. Scripture refers to brothers Jude and James as sons of Alphaeus, but these may or may not be the James and Judas of which are refrred to in Acts 1:13.

Orthodox tradition holds that Mary remained ever-Virgin. This is not biblically explicit, but biblically derived, specifically on the basis of two issues:
1. The fact that Mary is NOT referred to as the mother of Jesus' brothers
2. The fact that Jesus gave care of His mother ot John the Apostle.

Regarding her position as intercessor:
Orthodox theology teaches that the saints are alive- more alive than we- and that heaven is near, that the Church is One visible and invisible. Those who were intercessors and warriors while in the flesh are fairly and logically believed to continue to be so, and more, when freed from the cares of this world.

Regarding her bodily assumption: Orthodox do not dogmatically hold to this position. It is an ancient tradition of the Church, and like many others, is not recorded in canonical scripture. We can say with some confidence that Thomas was run through by a spear in India, and we can say with some confidence that Mary was assumed into heaven- both come down to us in oral tradition, and both have liberal scriptural precedent.

Regarding Mary as '"co-redemptrix:"
In the fullest sense, this idea is to us unthinkable and blasphemous. In a contextualized sense, one could make an argument that all saints, but especially those who really live the life of dying to self and living to the Lord, participate in the redemption of the world. One must be very careful how that is expressed, for only He accomplished that which was essential
consider Isaiah 63:3


It would be helpful if a positive statement of Marian doctrine could be stated by an Evangelical. By positive, I mean not in reaction to or refutation of Rome.

A sidebar discussion of interest would be as to whether it is good doctrine to teach that people in heaven pray for those on earth, or not, and why.

 

[Loren Michael]

Tell me how you see Jesus in these prayers:

Mary, Help of Those in Need

Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  That sounds like it should be directed to Jesus not MARY!

Morning consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and
possession.
Amen

:o :o

• Comment:
  I give my all to Jesus, not MARY! Paul talks about being a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.... NEVER to Mary! In fact, he never even mentions Mary!

The Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it
known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your
intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O
Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and
sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in
your mercy, hear and answer me.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  So MARY now hears your prayers... she is your protector, your intercessor....
  You ask MARY for mercy???
  Does MARY answer you?

Prayer to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the
flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you immensely.
Impress true love in our hearts so that we have a continuous desire for you. O
Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we are in sin. You know that
all men sin. Give us, by means of your Immaculate Heart, spiritual health. Let
us always see the goodness of your motherly heart and may we be converted by
means of the flame of your heart.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  Now you confess sins to MARY!!

Many more ....
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

:-?

thanks, gary! i'm going to trust that those prayers are the real deal. see, that's all that was being asked for. assertions backed up with evidence. i came off pretty harsh earlier. i apologize. in my defense though, it seemed like you were being kind of coy about it.

EDIT: a look at the main page seems to indicate that these prayers are just coming from one guy who thinks that mary led him to jesus. i'm not sure how that applies to the entire catholic church.

eh.

/shrug

 

[Gary]

thanks, gary! i'm going to trust that those prayers are the real deal. see, that's all that was being asked for. assertions backed up with evidence. i came off pretty harsh earlier. i apologize. in my defense though, it seemed like you were being kind of coy about it.

No problem!

Yes, these are "real" Roman Catholic prayers to Mary. I became aware of the Morning consecration to Mary when an ex-Roman Catholic joined our church. She had prayed that prayer since she was a teenager!

• My Queen, My Mother, I offer
  myself entirely to Thee.
  And to show my devotion to Thee,
  I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
  my ears, my mouth, my heart,
  my whole being without reserve.
  Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and
  possession.
  Amen

Fortunately, she has now come to true saving faith and has been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.



As I said, do a google search. It will surprise you.

Here we have the same prayer on a Catholic forum:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

Consecration to Mary
My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

.

 

[Loren Michael]

thanks, gary! i'm going to trust that those prayers are the real deal. see, that's all that was being asked for. assertions backed up with evidence. i came off pretty harsh earlier. i apologize. in my defense though, it seemed like you were being kind of coy about it.

No problem!

Yes, these are "real" Roman Catholic prayers to Mary. I became aware of the Morning consecration to Mary when an ex-Roman Catholic joined our church. She had prayed that prayer since she was a teenager!

• My Queen, My Mother, I offer
  myself entirely to Thee.
  And to show my devotion to Thee,
  I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
  my ears, my mouth, my heart,
  my whole being without reserve.
  Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and
  possession.
  Amen

Fortunately, she has now come to true saving faith and has been born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit.



As I said, do a google search. It will surprise you.

Here we have the same prayer on a Catholic forum:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm

Consecration to Mary
My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.

.

fair enough. i concede the point, and withdraw myself from this argument. carry on.

 

[TruthHunter]

Tell me how you see Jesus in these prayers:

Mary, Help of Those in Need

Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  That sounds like it should be directed to Jesus not MARY!

Interesting that you think we can only ask Jesus to do those things. Are not ALL christians to Help the needy, strengthen the weak, comfort, Pray for each other, assit our clergy and ministers when possible, We intecede for each other whenever we do these things, I pray that anyone who may walk into your Church in need will find protection, just as one may pray to Mary asking to give protection to those who flee to her. Jesus tells us to be perfect as his Father is perfect which means we all have an obligation to do these things. Anytime a prayer to Mary is prayed properly, then Jesus is automatically in our hearts and remembered. A devotion to Mary exist because she said yes to God, to give birth to and Raise the Messiah. One can not seperate Christ from Mary when one thinks of Mary to do so is to fall into the snares of the Devil.

Morning consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to Thee.
And to show my devotion to Thee,
I offer Thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard me as Thy property and
possession.
Amen

:o :o

• Comment:
  I give my all to Jesus, not MARY! Paul talks about being a slave to our Lord Jesus Christ.... NEVER to Mary! In fact, he never even mentions Mary!

Intersting thought here. This prayer still does not take ones eyes off of Jesus. Have you ever thought about giving yourself entirely to more than one person? Does somebody give more of there love to their spouse than their children? how about among their children. Would they be willing to die for one child and yet not another child? In this way we give our selves ENTIRELY to many people, our love, body, devotion, and life. However again re-stating from the above response. Anytime a prayer to Mary is prayed properly, then Jesus is automatically in our hearts and remembered. A devotion to Mary exist because she said yes to God, to give birth to and Raise the Messiah. One can not seperate Christ from Mary when one thinks of Mary. to removed Christ is to fall into the snares of the Devil.

The Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it
known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your
intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O
Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and
sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in
your mercy, hear and answer me.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  So MARY now hears your prayers... she is your protector, your intercessor....
  You ask MARY for mercy???
  Does MARY answer you?

You mean you think MARY can't hear prayers? God grants many gifts to the Saints in Heaven. Not only is Mary my protector and intercessor (see above responses) she is also my Mother. We ask Mercy from many people even in everyday life. Are we called upon By Christ's words in the Bible to show mercy to those around us? And yes Mary has answered me. Anytime a prayer to Mary is prayed properly, then Jesus is automatically in our hearts and remembered. A devotion to Mary exist because she said yes to God, to give birth to and Raise the Messiah. One can not seperate Christ from Mary when one thinks of Mary. To removed Christ is to fall into the snares of the Devil.

Prayer to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us. Let the
flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you immensely.
Impress true love in our hearts so that we have a continuous desire for you. O
Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we are in sin. You know that
all men sin. Give us, by means of your Immaculate Heart, spiritual health. Let
us always see the goodness of your motherly heart and may we be converted by
means of the flame of your heart.
Amen.

:o :o

• Comment:
  Now you confess sins to MARY!!

Best to take this one line by line

O Immaculate Heart of Mary, full of goodness, show your love towards us.

We should show love to everybody no promblem here

Let the
flame of your heart, O Mary, descend on all people. We love you immensely.

We do love our Mother, And I hope the flame of Mary's heart does descend upon us, becuase then we love Christ even more.

Impress true love in our hearts so that we have a continuous desire for you.

What is True Love? True Love is God. To show somebody True Love is to Show them God. To show somebody God is to Show them Jesus. If we know Jesus, and know God then it is natural to want to love each other more.

O
Mary, gentle and humble of heart, remember us when we are in sin. You know that
all men sin.

I hope everybody remember us when we sin. It is not a hidden secret that everybody sins. When we remember somebody who has sinned what do we do? We pray that they become closer to Jesus to see the error of their ways. Mary point and directs to Jesus, it doesn't stop at her it stops at God.

Give us, by means of your Immaculate Heart, spiritual health. Let
us always see the goodness of your motherly heart and may we be converted by
means of the flame of your heart.
Amen.

The Flame and Love of Mary's heart is there because of her love for her son, She goes to Jesus for us and with us, and loves him as such. For Mary to give to us conversion is to show us Jesus more perfectly.


We should confess that we are sinners to everybody.

Many more ....
http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

And I could go throught them all showing you how I see Christ in them because, Anytime a prayer to Mary is prayed properly, then Jesus is automatically in our hearts and remembered. A devotion to Mary exist because she said yes to God, to give birth to and Raise the Messiah. One can not seperate Christ from Mary when one thinks of Mary to do so is to fall into the snares of the Devil

:-?

 

[Vic C.]

You mean you think MARY can't hear prayers? God grants many gifts to the Saints in Heaven. Not only is Mary my protector and intercessor (see above responses) she is also my Mother. We ask Mercy from many people even in everyday life. Are we called upon By Christ's words in the Bible to show mercy to those around us? And yes Mary has answered me. Anytime a prayer to Mary is prayed properly, then Jesus is automatically in our hearts and remembered. A devotion to Mary exist because she said yes to God, to give birth to and Raise the Messiah. One can not seperate Christ from Mary when one thinks of Mary. To removed Christ is to fall into the snares of the Devil.

: : My poor heart aches. The Gospel is about Jesus. Always has been, always will be. There are no substitutes or additions. It is the adversary who adds distractions to the Word... and men follow like little lost sheep.

Our spirit intercedes for us through Jesus... there IS no other. Find me one verse that anyone other than Christ intercedes between us and the Father.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God....

... Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[TruthHunter]

I agree that it is indeed a terrible thing to add or subtract ANYTHING to the Wrod of God, however God's written word (the Bible) clearly states that the entirety of God's word is not within the written word, but maybe that's another thread.

Ben

 

[greyfeather]

In Jewish culture the first born son had the obligation to care for the mother if the father was not there. Joseph's absence from the scene suggests that Joseph was probably deceased although we do not know this for certain. Jesus knew that she would be left alone, without him to care for her. So he gave John that duty by saying "Woman, behold thy son!" and to John, "Behold thy mother!". Jesus knew his duty to his mother , in all that agony he loved her and thought of her , this was truly a love for a parent , plus showing the respect he had for Mary his mother. So I don't think that haveing respect for Mary is a sin , if it were not for her Jesus would not have been born. I do not pray to Mary , and there is no scripture in the Bible that tells me I should do so, but I do thank her for saying yes to God and bringing Jesus into this world.


Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.

 

[Heidi]

I think one may find prayer which do not mention Jesus specifically, however When Dealing with Mary Jesus is always in the Heart.

Ben

So why do you give Mary the credit for God's work in her? :o Do you give yourself the credit for God's work in you? It appears so. That is called the sin of pride, my friend. It is also an insult to God. Nowhere in the bible does it say that were are supposed to pray to people, dead or alive. Therefore, praying to Mary is a complete made-up gospel. It is to God to whom we give credit for every created thing, including human beings as Romans 1:1-18 tells us.

 

[TruthHunter]

You are misrepresenting what I said, however I believe you are doing it in good faith. I do not give Mary credit for God's work through her. however this is one point that when dealing with Mary praise and prayers also go on to God (it's spiritual multitasking :angel: ) Anyway, I do not take credit for God's work in my however if God gave me the spiritual gift of say healing, someone may come to me and ask me to pray for them. This would be recognizing God's tools. Actually the True Bible does give refrence to Prayers to and for the dead, that are legitamate. However since Martin Luther decided to rampage through the Bible, most Protestants are not aware of those :P .

Have a Happy Thanksgiving, I'll be working,
Ben

 

[Heidi]

You are misrepresenting what I said, however I believe you are doing it in good faith. I do not give Mary credit for God's work through her. however this is one point that when dealing with Mary praise and prayers also go on to God (it's spiritual multitasking :angel: ) Anyway, I do not take credit for God's work in my however if God gave me the spiritual gift of say healing, someone may come to me and ask me to pray for them. This would be recognizing God's tools. Actually the True Bible does give refrence to Prayers to and for the dead, that are legitamate. However since Martin Luther decided to rampage through the Bible, most Protestants are not aware of those :P .

Have a Happy Thanksgiving, I'll be working,
Ben

Oh we can always pray for people. But where does the bible say anywhere to pray to people? :o Actually, talking to the dead are occult practices. They do it all the time because they don't have God to pray to.

 

[TruthHunter]

talking to the dead, and praying are two different things. When one prays to a Saint they are not attempting to ask question, get answers to learn about the after life or any of those types of things. When someone dies in Christ yes the body dies, but the soul lives. Thus they are called the dead in Christ. The person is the Body and the spirit, but the spirit does not need the body to function. Thus our prayers on a spiritual level are very much still there. I would like to add a side post that this post particularly is my personal thoughts, and I have a hard time putting to words what I know in my heart.

Ben