Is obedience a Work?

[Andrew]

Nothing was said about everyone being saved. Do you have an agenda?

If Jesus did all the work, then everyone would be saved. Clearly, we both agree that something more is necessary for salvation. And yes, I do have an agenda, which is why I started the thread. I'm not sure why you think something is wrong with that.

Jesus' shed blood on the cross is sufficent to save anybody and everybody but that is not saying it will save them.

Agreed.

[quote:2iizopbw]If you do not except the fact that His blood covers all your (personal) sins then how can it save?

It is sufficient to cover my sins if I repent and obey.

A person has to place ALL their faith, trust, confidence and hope in the work of God (Jesus) on the cross. If you don't then His blood does not cover your sins. If a person says they have faith in His work but then sit on the fence and say that perhaps it doesn't save completely and so they must do works sufficient to pay for their sins then they do not have faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.
Jesus is to get ALL the glory.

If I trust in and believe Jesus, but live a life of sin that reject his commandments for my life, then I will not be saved. If I refuse to confess my sins based on my pride and arrogance, and if I persist in this sin until death, I will not be saved.

Dead faith will not save me. Repentence inclues a change of heart and a purpose of amendment, ie. you can't be forgiven for sin if you simultaneously confess it and plan to to do it again.



Heb 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

2 Pet 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Rom 2
6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.â€a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.[/quote:2iizopbw]

Are you trying to talk yourself out of your salvation? You seem to understand that you are saved by grace, which is not earned, and that salvation is a gift that has to be accepted in order be yours. You should be assured through the Holy Spirit that you're saved. If this assurance seems to be lacking then perhaps you need to look back and check the progress; are you bearing the fruit of the Spirit more, and also, are you finding yourself NOT bearing the fruits of darkness as much as you know you once did?
I find in my walk that there are times I don't feel like I'm where I should be; that I should be better than I am. I find myself understanding that the renewal of my mind is in the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirit working His work out in me. He allows me to learn through trials, tribulations, and even through lingering sin. I find I still have to hold to God's promises and that He is my only hope. I find I need to get out of His way in my life.
Wanting to be absolutely free of sin is what I believe God's work through the Holy Spirit is all about, that is the desire God wants to see written on our hearts. Free me, Free me, Free me.
I think being obedient and trusting in God's Word to be very much the same. Of works, including my personal effort to not sin, are not God's plan, "Apart from me you can do nothing", our personal effort doesn't get us there; prayer and reading the Word and trusting in Him to finish His work in you. All in God's time dear brother.

 

[glorydaz]

Hello Chester
If I understand my NT correctly, obedience to Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation. Too many scriptures on that to quibble. Jesus' obedience to His Father was necessary if He was to be our "author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" Heb.5:8,9. Further, anything God tells us to do is NOT a work of human righteousness but a work of God, Jn.6:29 for example. I must do the believing, yet it is called "the work of God".

God bless

Belief is vital, but is faith alone sufficient for salvation?

Faith is a gift of God, but can we lose faith by hardening our hearts through sin and a rejection of God's will?

If one has faith his legs will carry him across the room, will he get up and walk?
There is real faith and false faith....people seem to continually confuse the two.

 

[Hawkins]

John 15:10

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.


Will we be saved if we persist in disobeying the commandments of Jesus?

Obedience is an act of faith, a reflection of the correct kind of faith. You have faith problem if disobey.

 

[RichardBurger]

John 15:10

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.


Will we be saved if we persist in disobeying the commandments of Jesus?

Obedience is an act of faith, a reflection of the correct kind of faith. You have faith problem if disobey.

It should be obvious that we all dis-obey by sinning in the flesh. It is our sinful nature to dis-obey. That is why Jesus' shed blood saves us today.

Because God knows we CAN"T change our sinful nature He has made a plan where He is justified in saving sinners that places their faith, Trust, confidence and hope in Jesus' (God's) work on the cross. There is no way that we can be good enough or do enough good works to save us. As I said before the only sin that condemns in this age of God's garce is the sin of unbelief that Jesus' shed blood has paid for ALL your sins, past, present, and future (John 3:16-18).

 

[duval]

John 6:29 still reads "this is the work of God that ye believe." Belief or faith is here said to be a work. A work of God. Yet WE must DO the believing. I can only conclude that anything God tells us to do is not our work but His.

God bless

 

[olympia]

quote: chestertonrules

John 15:10
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Will we be saved if we persist in disobeying the commandments of Jesus?chestertonrules
Christian Forum Friend

Jesus spoke these words and he was not speaking of the Law of Moses, he was speaking of the Law of God; the Law of Faith. The Law of Faith was to believe in His commandments, which was not the same as the LOM, otherwise it would still be and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The Pharisee loved the Law of Moses and believed that it was their salvation. They knew every letter of the law, but that was not the way, it was only a schoolmaster to show them the infirmity of the flesh and how it failed in the Law.

This is now the commandment of God:

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is now the work of God:

John 6:29, "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 15:5, "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

But the apostles sent letters and informed the people: Acts 15:24, "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law; to whom we gave no such commandment."

Luke 16:16, "The law (of Moses) and the prophets were until John (the Baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

John 7:24, "If a man on the sabbath day recive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

 

[Cornelius]

Yes we have to be obedient and walk in our salvation. We are walking so it is indeed work. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Many Christians argue that the Word is a lamp to their feet, but leave out that it is also a light to their path. We walk in the light , and only then are we cleansed from all unrighteousness.It does not happen when we stand in the light. 1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Our walk is shorthand for "how we live our life" and if we life our lives according to what we understand in the Word , we are "walking in the light "

 

[RichardBurger]

John 6:29 still reads "this is the work of God that ye believe." Belief or faith is here said to be a work. A work of God. Yet WE must DO the believing. I can only conclude that anything God tells us to do is not our work but His.

God bless

I agree that you can call faith a work. But that work is not a physical work that is performed physically. It is a work of the heart (spirit).

 

[RichardBurger]

What I find offensive is the constant talk about good works as if the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of good works and that if you don’t do all those good works (not sinning) and are not obedient you are not a Christian. Below is a true story that happened to me and I have found that it happens often since I continue to talk to some that have the same idea as the man below.

A tragic story:

When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.

It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.

I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.

I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.

I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.

It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.

Matt 23:11-13
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
(NKJ)

If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.

But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.

Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.

 

[duval]

I have not said anything in this thread about "good works". I shall maintain, however, any work God asks us to do whether physical or otherwise is not a human work, Jn.6:29. It is agreed I trust that anything we do Him must be done from the heart.

God bless

 

[Cornelius]

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:

Your story certainly proves this verse to be correct. People do not understand the blood covering correctly and what its purpose is.

When we take our first steps as Christians, we do in fact leave a lot of sin behind us , that we repented of and we stopped. I stopped cheating on my taxes, stopped smoking, stopped lying, stopped swearing etc. But stopping those sins, did not mean I was now done with sin and those sins were not the only sins that I was going to overcome in my life. God still had other sins, that He later showed me, that I needed to overcome.

Here is a picture : In front of you is a row of boxes. You cannot see inside them. Each box has a sin inside that you are unaware of.Those sins are covered (by the blood) You cannot see them, and so you are not responsible for them .........yet,

Now God leads us forward in life and we open the next box. Inside we see a sin and now for the first time, we see it in our lives. For instance: We have only just learned that God hates gossiping and we say " Oh, but I do gossip and now I see its wrong" Now the sin is out in the open and we must now overcome it, just like we overcame those first ones in the beginning : We repent. We change our minds, we agree with God that it is wrong and ask Him for His help to overcome it. (We cannot overcome by ourselves)

And so it goes on. When a sin is KNOWN as a sin, it is sin. (not before) Jas 4:17 To him therefore that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (So to him that "knoweth not" it is not reckoned as sin. This is a Biblical fact and is definitely God's grace ! )

So we do indeed walk in the light (light means knowledge) so we can say" If we walk in the knowledge we have , ..then the blood cleanses us from all sin. Even when some boxes have not been opened yet (but they will be opened as soon as God wants us to overcome something else , as we grow into maturity.)

A young Christian has many more "boxes" before him/her than a more mature one. The longer we walk, the more responsibility we have . Here Jesus confirms this when He says that those who did not know they were doing wrong, suffer less consequences than those who knew what was right to do, Luk 12:47 And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
Luk 12:48 but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

 

[Andrew]

What I find offensive is the constant talk about good works as if the gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of good works and that if you don’t do all those good works (not sinning) and are not obedient you are not a Christian. Below is a true story that happened to me and I have found that it happens often since I continue to talk to some that have the same idea as the man below.

A tragic story:

When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.

It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.

I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.

I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.

I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.

It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.

Matt 23:11-13
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
(NKJ)

If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.

But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.

Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.

Very sad story and a tragedy because it is true and it does happen. I also feel for you brother as I'm sure you had huge pangs of "not doing enough, I should have done more" emotions. It is true as our Lord said, "They make them twice the sons of hell as they are." (paraphrased).

 

[glorydaz]

Beaten with many stripes does not mean one will lose his salvation.
It means he will be chastened when he disobeys.

Our Father chastens his children, he doesn't disown them.
Obedience isn't a "work", it's a surrender of our will to the Lord.
As we surrender our will, we will manifest the work of the Spirit...(fruit).

Those who reject Jesus do not recieve His words...they will be judged in the last day...those are the unbelievers. All men sin and come short of the glory of God. If anyone thinks his own righteousness will save him, he will be sadly mistaken.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[duval]

Hi Glorydaz

And may I add Lk.17:7-10, especialliy vs. 10

God bless

 

[chestertonrules]

Beaten with many stripes does not mean one will lose his salvation.
It means he will be chastened when he disobeys.

.

[/quote]


ie. Have a more difficult purgatory.

 

[Cornelius]

ie. Have a more difficult purgatory.

No it simply means that while on this earth, if you know what is the right thing to do and you do no do it, you bring yourself under a curse again. God uses the curse to chastise those He loves .Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Some with less stripes than others. Those who are ignorant will be receiving a chastisement as well, just not as heavy as those who are not ignorant. Chastisement is the "rod and the staff" that the Shepherd uses to get the rebellious sheep into line. Its should be a comfort to us.Psa 23:4 ...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

 

[Cornelius]

When bad things keep on happening to Christians and it seems to repeat and repeat, then they should ask God what the reason is. Why is the curse back in my life? What am I doing that is out of Your will? Show me my heart and my ways and where I am wrong. Reveal THY way to me and allow me to walk in it.

Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

 

[chestertonrules]

ie. Have a more difficult purgatory.

No it simply means that while on this earth, if you know what is the right thing to do and you do no do it, you bring yourself under a curse again. God uses the curse to chastise those He loves .Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye sweethearts, and not sons.

Some with less stripes than others. Those who are ignorant will be receiving a chastisement as well, just not as heavy as those who are not ignorant. Chastisement is the "rod and the staff" that the Shepherd uses to get the rebellious sheep into line. Its should be a comfort to us.Psa 23:4 ...thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The passage in Luke 12 is about waiting for Jesus to return. The judgment.

Your interpretation doesn't fit. Try reading it again.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Glorydaz

And may I add Lk.17:7-10, especialliy vs. 10

God bless

Thank you...that was exactly the verse I was looking for but couldn't find.
It's but our duty....

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[glorydaz]

Beaten with many stripes does not mean one will lose his salvation.
It means he will be chastened when he disobeys.

.

ie. Have a more difficult purgatory.

Have a more difficult life here on earth.

I'm sure we've all experienced the many things that go wrong when we walk in disobedience.