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Is obedience a Work?

May I add another point? I like to stick with what the Bible expressly promotes. Concerning our will, I don't think God is asking us to "surrender" our will. Rather, let us reform our will to agree with His will in all things. I don't think it is possible to surrender our will without having a replacement, else we have no will left to act upon. If I retain part of it to keep living with some measure of sensibility, then I have not at all surrendered it. If I surrendered all my natural will I might face all problems with "Well, whatever is is." No. I was given an imperfect though functional will that needs to be perfected in Christ. God has not presented people to the world without a working will sufficient to direct us to get up and go get food; get some sleep or lose health; it's time to bathe, without being told; and other basic of life requiring decisions. I should take on the mind of Christ according to the Bible, which mind has been given me but not fully realized yet, which can't be finished the instant I am born again. My mind is convinced to prefer the mind of Christ as I continue to study the scriptures, hearing the reasoning of godly men led by the Spirit to "fix" my stinkin' thinkin'. I know I can't trust my own mind to fix itself, hence why God gave the Church gifts of preaching, teaching, etc. Eventually most of the time my response will more exactly reflect "What Jesus Would Do" rather than continually wondering "What Would Jesus Do?"
 
WordSwordsman said:
May I add another point? I like to stick with what the Bible expressly promotes. Concerning our will, I don't think God is asking us to "surrender" our will. Rather, let us reform our will to agree with His will in all things. I don't think it is possible to surrender our will without having a replacement, else we have no will left to act upon. If I retain part of it to keep living with some measure of sensibility, then I have not at all surrendered it. If I surrendered all my natural will I might face all problems with "Well, whatever is is." No. I was given an imperfect though functional will that needs to be perfected in Christ. God has not presented people to the world without a working will sufficient to direct us to get up and go get food; get some sleep or lose health; it's time to bathe, without being told; and other basic of life requiring decisions. I should take on the mind of Christ according to the Bible, which mind has been given me but not fully realized yet, which can't be finished the instant I am born again. My mind is convinced to prefer the mind of Christ as I continue to study the scriptures, hearing the reasoning of godly men led by the Spirit to "fix" my stinkin' thinkin'. I know I can't trust my own mind to fix itself, hence why God gave the Church gifts of preaching, teaching, etc. Eventually most of the time my response will more exactly reflect "What Jesus Would Do" rather than continually wondering "What Would Jesus Do?"

Yes, we shouldn't surrender our will to just anything.
We're to take on the mind of Christ.
Not my will but thine be done. :yes

Maybe "yield" would be the better word..."but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God".
 
WordSwordsman said:
May I add another point? I like to stick with what the Bible expressly promotes. Concerning our will, I don't think God is asking us to "surrender" our will. Rather, let us reform our will to agree with His will in all things. I don't think it is possible to surrender our will without having a replacement, else we have no will left to act upon. If I retain part of it to keep living with some measure of sensibility, then I have not at all surrendered it. If I surrendered all my natural will I might face all problems with "Well, whatever is is." No. I was given an imperfect though functional will that needs to be perfected in Christ. God has not presented people to the world without a working will sufficient to direct us to get up and go get food; get some sleep or lose health; it's time to bathe, without being told; and other basic of life requiring decisions. I should take on the mind of Christ according to the Bible, which mind has been given me but not fully realized yet, which can't be finished the instant I am born again. My mind is convinced to prefer the mind of Christ as I continue to study the scriptures, hearing the reasoning of godly men led by the Spirit to "fix" my stinkin' thinkin'. I know I can't trust my own mind to fix itself, hence why God gave the Church gifts of preaching, teaching, etc. Eventually most of the time my response will more exactly reflect "What Jesus Would Do" rather than continually wondering "What Would Jesus Do?"

I agree. God will help us transform our wills.

Here's a good passage:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
WordSwordsman said:
Eventually most of the time my response will more exactly reflect "What Jesus Would Do" rather than continually wondering "What Would Jesus Do?"

chestertonrules said:
I agree. God will help us transform our wills.

Here's a good passage:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes
 
glorydaz said:
WordSwordsman said:
Eventually most of the time my response will more exactly reflect "What Jesus Would Do" rather than continually wondering "What Would Jesus Do?"

chestertonrules said:
I agree. God will help us transform our wills.

Here's a good passage:

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes


What good is discerning God's will if we don't obey?
 
chestertonrules said:
glorydaz said:
Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes


What good is discerning God's will if we don't obey?

Why do you assume those who are born of God don't obey?
God has given us a new heart, and placed the desire to follow His voice.
His sheep follow Him. Does that mean we always obey? No.
We are His children, that's why He is faithful to chasten us when we don't obey.

Only His children can discern His voice in the first place.
Not everyone who claims to be a child of God is. :crazy

I'm continually amazed at the lack of faith in members of the body.
There is so much judgmentalism going on around here...who dares lay a charge against the elect of God?
Romans 8:33 said:
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

I have never in my life seen so many people so worried about other people's obedience.
We can't even carry on a conversation without someone assuming someone isn't obeying. :confused
 
glorydaz said:
[
What good is discerning God's will if we don't obey?

Why do you assume those who are born of God don't obey?
God has given us a new heart, and placed the desire to follow His voice.
His sheep follow Him. Does that mean we always obey? No.
We are His children, that's why He is faithful to chasten us when we don't obey.

[/quote]


Obedience is an act of will. It requires us to make a decision every day of our lives.

Will I follow God today? Will I cooperate with his grace?


If you begin down the path of disobedience you can lose your faith, and without faith we cannot be saved.
 
The New Covenant is in fact quite new, not composed of the old ways patched together in some better order. From the Law of Sin (Old Mosaic Covenant) we learned obedience was something required, else suffer some punishment, and of course lose some blessing. The Law of Life and liberty in Christ doesn't carry that old burdensome attitude of demanded obedience. Rather, once liberated from slavery to sin, born again into the righteousness of God in Christ. we are supposed to be driven by love instead of fear. The love we are filled with upon salvation of our spirit makes it possible to be such a new creature that obedience just happens.

Have you ever met an immigrant American citizen that seems to love the USA more than native-born folks? We just love a retired couple moved here from communist nation, a former scientist/inventor "coming out" among us after a long time learning English. They delight in everything, even loving traffic lights. When they gladly stop they smile and wave at traffic, and will always offer a ride when thy see a neighbor walking. They never speed, always let traffic in ahead of them. They always smile. Most of their garden produce gets bundled up and placed on neighbor's porches even for those of us with our own gardens. They volunteer for community work, and are said to be extremely generous in every way. They absolutely love this nation and town. I believe they are the kind of people nobody needs to tell what is legal or not. I am not saying they don't sin. I can't imagine them willing to sin on purpose, though. They practice too much love to fall into law breaking. In a small way they are exhibiting the kind of pleasant lifestyle God is looking for in Christians, even though they won't yet divulge their standing with Jesus. I'm not saying God would be pleased for people to just live right to be saved. I am saying a Christian ought to be found to just live that way by default because of love in them. It's like when I put a new motor in a work truck I expected it to perform like new, not burning oil. Sure enough, it runs like a new truck.

Even so, the Lord is not requiring His disciples to live a certain minimum holy life or be found wanting, losing our salvation, having to get some new sin washed again and again. Reading the Bible washes us daily as we are soiled just living around. His is not a sin consciousness way, but an abundant living way, a righteousness-thinking way. Being found obeying the commandments of Christ ought to become more and more "natural", taking on a quick resistance to anything hinting of sin. God wants His children to stop being held back by memories of past failures, present weaknesses, and fear of sinning in the future. As liberated citizens of Heaven we are set to serve with joy. Such obedience will not add a bit to our salvation, nor preserve it. It is simply our reasonable service to God. Jesus is the one preserving our salvation, and all we need do is accept that by faith. You are Christian? You believed and still believe. You repented, were baptized. Your past, present and future sin was washed once forever in His blood, and there will be no second and third and fourth treatments with His blood. The first time was sufficient. It was sprinkled at the altar, that one time falling upon you by faith. Once taken from the altar (the cross of Christ) it was taken to and remains in Heaven in the basin before God. It was so effective a third of your total being was saved forever and redeemed at that time, that is your spirit was saved and made free. Now let it be joined by a soul made new by the mind of Christ, and present your body a holy sacrifice out of sheer joy and appreciation and love for Jesus. The redemption of your soul and body is near. Live free.
 
WordSwordsman said:
The New Covenant is in fact quite new, not composed of the old ways patched together in some better order. From the Law of Sin (Old Mosaic Covenant) we learned obedience was something required, else suffer some punishment, and of course lose some blessing. The Law of Life and liberty in Christ doesn't carry that old burdensome attitude of demanded obedience. Rather, once liberated from slavery to sin, born again into the righteousness of God in Christ. we are supposed to be driven by love instead of fear. The love we are filled with upon salvation of our spirit makes it possible to be such a new creature that obedience just happens.

Have you ever met an immigrant American citizen that seems to love the USA more than native-born folks? We just love a retired couple moved here from communist nation, a former scientist/inventor "coming out" among us after a long time learning English. They delight in everything, even loving traffic lights. When they gladly stop they smile and wave at traffic, and will always offer a ride when thy see a neighbor walking. They never speed, always let traffic in ahead of them. They always smile. Most of their garden produce gets bundled up and placed on neighbor's porches even for those of us with our own gardens. They volunteer for community work, and are said to be extremely generous in every way. They absolutely love this nation and town. I believe they are the kind of people nobody needs to tell what is legal or not. I am not saying they don't sin. I can't imagine them willing to sin on purpose, though. They practice too much love to fall into law breaking. In a small way they are exhibiting the kind of pleasant lifestyle God is looking for in Christians, even though they won't yet divulge their standing with Jesus. I'm not saying God would be pleased for people to just live right to be saved. I am saying a Christian ought to be found to just live that way by default because of love in them. It's like when I put a new motor in a work truck I expected it to perform like new, not burning oil. Sure enough, it runs like a new truck.

Even so, the Lord is not requiring His disciples to live a certain minimum holy life or be found wanting, losing our salvation, having to get some new sin washed again and again. Reading the Bible washes us daily as we are soiled just living around. His is not a sin consciousness way, but an abundant living way, a righteousness-thinking way. Being found obeying the commandments of Christ ought to become more and more "natural", taking on a quick resistance to anything hinting of sin. God wants His children to stop being held back by memories of past failures, present weaknesses, and fear of sinning in the future. As liberated citizens of Heaven we are set to serve with joy. Such obedience will not add a bit to our salvation, nor preserve it. It is simply our reasonable service to God. Jesus is the one preserving our salvation, and all we need do is accept that by faith. You are Christian? You believed and still believe. You repented, were baptized. Your past, present and future sin was washed once forever in His blood, and there will be no second and third and fourth treatments with His blood. The first time was sufficient. It was sprinkled at the altar, that one time falling upon you by faith. Once taken from the altar (the cross of Christ) it was taken to and remains in Heaven in the basin before God. It was so effective a third of your total being was saved forever and redeemed at that time, that is your spirit was saved and made free. Now let it be joined by a soul made new by the mind of Christ, and present your body a holy sacrifice out of sheer joy and appreciation and love for Jesus. The redemption of your soul and body is near. Live free.

A truly wonderful post. I see we have a man of wisdom aboard. :amen :amen :amen
 
archangel_300 said:
chestertonrules said:
Why is one man saved and another lost if all the work was done by Jesus?

Please read Romans 9.
God chooses whom he wishes to choose for salvation.
God has mercy upon whom He wishes to have mercy upon. One of the evidences He has mercy on us is that we will be drawn to Him and will desire to come to faith in Christ. But this desire comes from the fact that God is drawing us. John 6:44


Wheel of fortune salvation? God flips coins? God has certain favourites?

This is very foreign to anything written in the bible. God resists the proud AND GIVES GRACE to the humble. He doesn't just draw names out of a celestial hat.
 
glorydaz said:
Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes

the word "obey" in conjuction with "obedience" is mentioned over 500 times in the Word, obedience is a big deal according to the Word.
the other things you mentioned "offering our bodies as living sacrifices" is being obedient if we, in fact, do just that, so we can not really even talk about our walk w/out using the word "obey".
 
DarcyLu said:
glorydaz said:
Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes

the word "obey" in conjuction with "obedience" is mentioned over 500 times in the Word, obedience is a big deal according to the Word.
the other things you mentioned "offering our bodies as living sacrifices" is being obedient if we, in fact, do just that, so we can not really even talk about our walk w/out using the word "obey".

Actually, what I was speaking of about 'presenting our bodies as living sacrifices' goes beyond obedience. The word "service" in this verse refers to sacred service...worship, as we present our bodies and willingly die to self. I realize obedience is paramount in some people's mind, but love goes beyond obedience.
Romans 12 said:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We can obey and still think too highly of ourselves. We can obey and not die to self. We desire to go beyond obedience. It's like loving your husband so much that you go out of your way to prepare a special meal...to go above and beyond the call of duty because we desire to do so out of an abundance of love.
 
glorydaz said:
DarcyLu said:
glorydaz said:
Praise His wonderful name. It becomes so much more than whether we "obey". It's being able to discern God's will in our lives and then moving on to offering our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God. Our spiritual act of worship...I love that. :yes

the word "obey" in conjuction with "obedience" is mentioned over 500 times in the Word, obedience is a big deal according to the Word.
the other things you mentioned "offering our bodies as living sacrifices" is being obedient if we, in fact, do just that, so we can not really even talk about our walk w/out using the word "obey".

Actually, what I was speaking of about 'presenting our bodies as living sacrifices' goes beyond obedience. The word "service" in this verse refers to sacred service...worship, as we present our bodies and willingly die to self. I realize obedience is paramount in some people's mind, but love goes beyond obedience.
Romans 12 said:
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
We can obey and still think too highly of ourselves. We can obey and not die to self. We desire to go beyond obedience. It's like loving your husband so much that you go out of your way to prepare a special meal...to go above and beyond the call of duty because we desire to do so out of an abundance of love.
i do see what you are saying, as sacrificing ourselves is an act of worhsip, is being obedient and also the act of love as we are to put on love is also an act of obedience even if it is going above and beyond. I guess my point is it's impossible to be a Christian without being obedient.
 
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