Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[Guest]

Though I have never seen God execute Justice ANYWHERE in Scripture by torturing someone

Well, I believe your right about this but if we are talking about torture in hell it is not God that is doing that, cause he doesn't send us to hell right? If hell is separation from God then whatever kind of torture physical or mental it couldn't be God doing it because we are separated from him.

Correct, very good jeff77. God does not send us to hell. We send ourselves to hell by our unbelief in who Jesus Christ is. Take a look at James 1:13-15 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,†for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. What he's saying here is that God doesn't keep you from God. The devil keeps you from God with worldly things.

 

[Guest]

Faithful to God but had since disbelieved, rejected or abandoned God = unbelievers. The title of Jude 1:3-16 is 'Judgment on False Teachers.'

 

[chessman]

I did some searching and I feel that this best explains why hell is for eternity and that what we disagree on is basically the context of the translation of the word ainion. Note that the start of the article talks about "Universalist". I am not in any way trying to say that anyone posting has said they are a Universalist. It's the rest of the article that I am talking about.

A look at the word "aionion"


Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionio.

hell is eternal
Fire is eternal
Their death is eternal.
It is an eternal punishment

It would not make sense to say "temporary death" or "temporary punishment".

That's why universalism cannot be true.

The only issue is that people think there is a scripture somewhere that say humans are tormented or tortured eternally.

But there's not.

Those passages are talking about the Devil only, clearly.

 

[Guest]

The only issue is that people think there is a scripture somewhere that say humans are tormented or tortured eternally.

But there's not.

Those passages are talking about the Devil only, clearly.

Notice the words in bold..

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Where will the devil be thrown into according to Revelation 20:10. Is hell not for humans? Notice it says disputing about the body of Moses. The devil wanted his soul.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contempt?s=t

Matthew 18:8-9 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

 

[chessman]

Notice the words in bold..

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Where will the devil be thrown into according to Revelation 20:10. Is hell not for humans? Notice it says disputing about the body of Moses. The devil wanted his soul.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contempt?s=t

Matthew 18:8-9 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

I believe every word there, even the bold ones. The difference between you and i, is that i also believe every word here, even the bold ones here:

The lake of fire is the second death .15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14-15

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well, I believe your right about this but if we are talking about torture in hell it is not God that is doing that, cause he doesn't send us to hell right? If hell is separation from God then whatever kind of torture physical or mental it couldn't be God doing it because we are separated from him.

Hi Jeff77,

Well, if you were to interpret the texts literally on this matter then yes God would be the one torturing them. Read Revelation 14, in the presence of the Lamb and his holy angels the smoke of their torment (this is done TO them) rises up forever and ever. However, I have different interpretation of the passage.

And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Re 20:15).

To your second point, let's examine your statement about God not sending anyone to hell. This word "thrown" in this passage is in the passive voice in the original language, this means that the action is not being performed on themselves, these people aren't being thrown in by themselves, but are being thrown into the lake of fire by someone else.

Who do you imagine is throwing them into the lake of fire?

 

[jeff77]

Who do you imagine is throwing them into the lake of fire?

Is it possible that is the devil that does that or one his demons?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Is it possible that is the devil that does that or one his demons?

Well, this is the context of the final judgement, which this is in v.15 and this is AFTER v.10 where it says the Devil, the false prophet and the beast were thrown into the lake of fire. So it is impossible that it is them.

Who else could it be Jeff77?

Hell is a place of JUDGEMENT, is is the presence of God in his wrath. Literally the fire that consumes is the fire that comes from him, the wrath of God. You may not want to believe this, but is most certainly what the Bible teaches. Though I do not believe the Lord will be angry forever and require his wrath to continue on forever and ever but his wrath will be poured out, his enemies will be consumed and destroyed and peace, love and righteousness will remain and reign forever will all evil done away with and defeated once and for all. Doesn't that sound hopeful and triumphant? Doesn't that sound like a good God?

That's the God I worship!

 

[jeff77]

You may not want to believe this, but is most certainly what the Bible teaches.

No, I do want to believe what the Bible teaches. To tell you the truth I never really thought about who is the one to actually cast the unbelievers into the lake of fire, I just thought that they are being thrown there because of their own actions or inactions and not God.

 

[Guest]

No, I do want to believe what the Bible teaches. To tell you the truth I never really thought about who is the one to actually cast the unbelievers into the lake of fire, I just thought that they are being thrown there because of their own actions or inactions and not God.

It's people's unbelief in who Jesus Christ is that throws them into hell. Hell is the complete absence of God. When you reach the great white judgment throne, he will say to you he never knew you. To know who Jesus and God is, is to be born of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime. Heaven is holy land. Are you able to connect the dots here. Holy Spirit/Holy Land.

So where else is there to go but hell. Heaven is the opposite place of hell. For example, you wouldn't just walk in someone's neighborhood, knock on their door and ask them if you could live with them. They would think you were crazy. To know Jesus is to be born of the Holy Spirit. Makes sense?

 

[Guest]

Notice the words in bold..

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Where will the devil be thrown into according to Revelation 20:10. Is hell not for humans? Notice it says disputing about the body of Moses. The devil wanted his soul.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contempt?s=t

Matthew 18:8-9 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

I believe every word there, even the bold ones. The difference between you and i, is that i also believe every word here, even the bold ones here:

The lake of fire is the second death[/COLOR]
.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14-15

But don't you have to still exist to feel shame and contempt?

 

[chessman]

Notice the words in bold..

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.†Where will the devil be thrown into according to Revelation 20:10. Is hell not for humans? Notice it says disputing about the body of Moses. The devil wanted his soul.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/contempt?s=t

Matthew 18:8-9 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

I believe every word there, even the bold ones. The difference between you and i, is that i also believe every word here, even the bold ones here:

The lake of fire is the second death[/COLOR]
.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14-15

But don't you have to still exist to feel shame and contempt?

But notice that even in the Daniel 12 passage, those in Heaven have everlasting life but the shame and torment is not everlasting as i read this translation. I'm mo Hebrew expert but in Greek there are definite articles in the syntax that show everlasting describes life. But if this translation is accurate they will feel shame and contempt, just not forever. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Guest]

But if this translation is accurate they will feel shame and contempt, just not forever. Seems reasonable to me.

But it doesn't say two weeks in contempt or even a month in contempt. It in fact says everlasting. Reasonable by your standards or God's?

 

[chessman]

But if this translation is accurate they will feel shame and contempt, just not forever. Seems reasonable to me.

But it doesn't say two weeks in contempt or even a month in contempt. It in fact says everlasting. Reasonable by your standards or God's?

I'm evaluating God's Word and seeing how it can clearly say 2nd death in Other places, yet say eternal pain/ torment here.

My first observation is it does not say they will feel pain/torment forever here (or anywhere else).

If this Dan 12 passage said everlasting pain/torment, then it would be clear. I'm not sure how I would get to rationally still believe in inerrancy though, unless i just ignored that conflict.

2nd observation is that many folks believe this passage is describing events prior to the final judgment. i don't know. But it does say that some, after they awake, will lead many to righteousness. Verse 3! So maybe.

But the third and best observation is that it is just not clear who will be feeling contempt/pain.

Do you have contempt for Osama Ben Laden? He's dead. Maybe that's what Daniel means.

If it were not for passages that describe their 2nd death, i'd certainly think this passage meant they did exist and feel contempt forever. But we have more dozens of passages that say they die. That's why i feel this whole issue is just not as clear as people think. I've posted Scripture here before that i take to mean that God intentionally makes their eternality in Hell grey, like He intentionally does not want us knowing the hour of His return.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

 

[Guest]

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

When he says some, he's referring to either believers or unbelievers. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[chessman]

Notice the words in bold.. Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Where will the devil be thrown into according to Revelation 20:10. Is hell not for humans? Notice it says disputing about the body of Moses. The devil wanted his soul.

Urk,
I’m back to my computer where I can study and respond a little better to the three passages that you posted claiming they teach an eternal torment for humans in Hell. I only had my smartphone and App the last couple of days. So here goes:
You mention Jude 1:9 discussing a past event between Michael and Satan (Moses’ dead body) not a future event (treatment of the “goats” (un-saved) in Hell after their Judgment). But prior to verse nine we have Jude’s statement here:

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5 ESV)
​

Now this cannot be a proof text, as Jude is talking about history, not the future. But later, he uses this past event as an example of how God will treat un-saved humans in the future.

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 ESV)
​

So the example(s) Jude means to use (he actually says serves as an example) for the un-saved future are: 1) destruction of the non-believers at the time of the Exodus and 2) the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Are you sure you want to use Jude as an example of the un-saved’s eternal torment/pain in Hell? Doesn’t make sense to me just right off the bat from Jude’s words. Remember, he directly tells us these are examples of how it will be.
Then you say Jude 1:9 proves people in Hell are tormented eternally. But the text says:

Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”(Jude 1:8-9 ESV)
​

First the text says “body” not “soul” as you assume. But, whatever. I’ll try out your evidence assuming that Jude really meant “soul” when it said dead body. But if you read verse 8, here Jude is clearly comparing Michael’s and Satan’s contending for Moses’ “body” to the situation/subject of Jude’s letter from verse 4:

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4 ESV)
​

So Jude uses two examples of the eventual punishment for sin (Exodus and Sodom, “destruction”) if they continue to let these false prophets “contend” for their gospel.
Then Jude gives one example of the way these “false prophets” contending with them (trying to get them back into sexual and other immoral behaviors was like the way Michael and Satan contended for Moses’ body. And the solution for them should be the same as Michael used. “The Lord rebuke you.”

Therefore, Jude (if anything) provides evidence for destruction (annihilation) of the un-saved in Hell, not eternal torment.

The idea of Satan ruling in Hell (and wanting Moses’ dead body, or soul there for his pleasure) comes from fictional books like Dante’s Inferno and Hollywood movies. Hell is for Satan’s punishment (eternal in His case), not pleasure. Your idea of what Jude 1:9 teaches seems more like fiction or at least speculation, than the Biblical teaching here in Jude.

 

[Guest]

Are you sure you want to use Jude as an example of the un-saved’s eternal torment/pain in Hell?

First the text says “body†not “soul†as you assume. But, whatever.

The idea of Satan ruling in Hell (and wanting Moses’ dead body, or soul there for his pleasure) comes from fictional books like Dante’s Inferno and Hollywood movies. Hell is for Satan’s punishment (eternal in His case), not pleasure. Your idea of what Jude 1:9 teaches seems more like fiction or at least speculation, than the Biblical teaching here in Jude.

Well, to back up Jude and body/soul I would have to use Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt for this reason alone. The words in bold describe sleeping in sheol grave and judgment day at the Bema Seat and the great white throne. In order to feel shame and contempt, your soul has to be aware of your surroundings. Your soul is inside your body.

In regards to humans in hell, it only makes sense to me and I'll tell you why. For example, take Ariel Castro the guy that kidnapped three girls in Cleveland and abused and raped them for 10 years. Say Ariel never asks for forgiveness from God, then dies. Ariel is then resurrected at the great white judgment throne for unbelievers. Jesus then judges him by his deeds. Jesus says to Ariel, I never knew you, depart from me. Jesus now sends Ariel into an eternal sleep and erases his existence? If this were true, nobody would fear God and they would keep sinning.

Who said the devil is receiving pleasure in hell. You must be mistaken. The devil hates God and is filled with hate, not pleasure. Why do you think God taking sin seriously at judgment day is fiction?

 

[chessman]

It's people's unbelief in who Jesus Christ is that throws them into hell. Hell is the complete absence of God. When you reach the great white judgment throne, he will say to you he never knew you. To know who Jesus and God is, is to be born of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime. Heaven is holy land. Are you able to connect the dots here. Holy Spirit/Holy Land. So where else is there to go but hell. Heaven is the opposite place of hell. For example, you wouldn't just walk in someone's neighborhood, knock on their door and ask them if you could live with them. They would think you were crazy. To know Jesus is to be born of the Holy Spirit. Makes sense?

I’m not just posting here to be argumentative for argument's sake. However, it seem to the point to discuss a couple of statements you make here.

1. You say “It's people's unbelief in who Jesus Christ is that throws them into hell.†Yet Rev 20 says:

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.(Revelation 20:15 ESV)

If you meant it’s people’s own free-will rejection of God that God judges them in accordance with, great. I agree. But here we are specifically talking about what happens AFTER their judgment by the ultimate perfect judge.

2. You say “For example, you wouldn't just walk in someone's neighborhood, knock on their door and ask them if you could live with them. They would think you were crazy.â€
Yet isn’t that just like the situation you describe when it’s the individual himself/herself that “throws themselves into Hell� When we stray from the Biblical text, we almost always get things wrong. I know I do anyway.
I originally missed (misunderstood) your point about Daniel 12:2 for example. You’re right it does say “everlasting contemptâ€.
So, of the three passages that you mention (Jude, Daniel 12, Matt 18). That’s the only one that I find where there could be any evidence for your opinion of what happens to humans in Hell. But as I said, to reconcile what the Daniel 12:2 verse means with Jude or Rev (for just a couple of examples), I think it means basically just what it says :

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life (heaven), and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Hell).
​

That’s why I believe Hell is everlasting, the Devil is there (un-annihilated, and having contempt for God and His people, forever and ever) and the un-saved are thrown into that place (they DO NOT go voluntarily) where they die a second death yet the Devil continues His existence with all the contempt and suffering He deserves.

Some awake to go to that place of shame and contempt. I don’t see a conflict.
I think I’ve asked you at least five times how you reconcile the passage that describe the un-saved’s death and destruction with your idea of their treatment. I’ve yet to hear your answer. You keep saying that they are tormented forever (in shame forever, in contempt forever) but you do not seem to address the apparent conflict with their death and destruction (Rev 20 or even Jude, ironically).

I’m honestly interested in how you reconcile this. Not just irking you.

 

[Guest]

I think I’ve asked you at least five times how you reconcile the passage that describe the un-saved’s death and destruction with your idea of their treatment. I’ve yet to hear your answer. You keep saying that they are tormented forever (in shame forever, in contempt forever) but you do not seem to address the apparent conflict with their death and destruction (Rev 20 or even Jude, ironically).

I’m honestly interested in how you reconcile this. Not just irking you.

When the Bible speaks of death and destruction, I don't believe it means cease to exist. I believe that it means not being granted eternal life. For example, you can destroy your life by robbing a bank and getting caught, but even though you've destroyed your life, you're still rotting in jail. Take a look at Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.†Does it say the fire burns out, no. If these souls ceased to exist what is fueling the fire? Notice it says their portion, meaning their portion of sin I believe that fuels the fire.

 

[jeff77]

When the Bible speaks of death and destruction, I don't believe it means cease to exist. I believe that it means not being granted eternal life. For example, you can destroy your life by robbing a bank and getting caught, but even though you've destroyed your life, you're still rotting in jail.

Exactly, that is the way I see it. It seems like the main reason why people disagree on any of these subjects is cause of translation/interpretation/context. While I can understand different people are going to see some of these things differently, it seems to me like Christians should be unified on the most important doctrines.