Is physical pain experienced in hell?

[Doulos Iesou]

I disagree and Agree. The Atheist will pound this Home because it takes the focus off of Christ alone and faith alone and their personal decision for Christ. You have let the Atheist "win" the Focus and He has taken your focus away from presenting the Clear and Honest Gospel of faith alone in Christ alone.

Most religious people and reversionistic Christians will go with the Athiests lead ( and try to change Hell)because they do not believe in Faith alone in Christ alone.

Christianity could have a very "nice" Idea of Hell and the Atheist will still try to take the focus off of Christ Alone for salvation.

This world and religion will forever antagonize His Grace and His Knowledge. Even if we tried to convince the Atheist that Hell is Just doobies and daisies.(religion and the Atheist would still not believe)

Religion disagrees with Faith alone in Christ alone and eternal security for the believer. It doesn't Get much better for religion to go with the Atheist and try to appease them and take the focus off of GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of who the LORD is.

So those of us who disagree with you are trying to "change hell because they don't believe in faith alone and Christ alone"?

I'm trying to be as faithful as I can to Scriptures, God's revealed word to us, not warp it to whatever I please. I cannot in good conscience hold to your view of hell when I see Scripture time and time again say otherwise, and the texts that traditionalists use end up not holding up to scrutiny.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

@Doulos Iesou This isn't about what we should tell or not tell unbelievers about love or hell. That's a whole new thread. This thread is about if there's physical pain in hell, and finding scripture to support that. There is scripture that confirms this, but we choose to ignore it. People can ignore it, but what does that do. Do we want truth or not.

Well, you've discussed with me enough on this forum to know that my whole argument on this matter is from Scripture. I brought up the issue of what should we tell unbelievers because I was responding to your post which was in regards to that particular issue. Which of course I took issue with that idea.

Though, I think we should tell them the truth of course on this matter and not hide it. Though I find my view of God's ultimate punishment is far more consistent with the gospel and what it solves, the resurrection of course being the Christian's greatest hope.

As you mentioned this thread is indeed about if physical pain is experienced in hell. I think that has been made quite clear that there is in fact physical pain that is experienced in hell.

 

[chessman]

NO. Scripture clearly states eternal punishment.

Where exactly? Because otherwise, your statement here is no better than “28 days in rehab†(which of course no-one’s ever posted that idea here either, except you.

i can say to ease my mind that eternity means 28 days in rehab, but that wouldn't be the truth.

I went back and looked. You’ve made more than 29 posts and only three Scriptural references. One of which ironically says exactly my argument.

Rev 20:14b (NASB) This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The “lake of fire†is “the second death†and anyone who is not written in the book of life are thrown into “the lake of fire†(Second death).

Then there’s:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. How can everlasting punishment be everlasting if we cease to exist.

Yep, Rev 20 is saying death and the other (Matt 25:46) is saying “everlasting punishment�???

I say that a death sentence is an everlasting punishment. Basically just that straight forward and simple.

I am also bringing up the topic of Matthew 25:46 now, what are your thoughts on this scripture. How can punishment be punishment if it's not from an active consious sense.

Then explain Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46 and Rev 20:10-11.

Good questions. So just exactly how do you reconcile these two passages Rev 20:14 and Matt 25:46? I noticed you’ve never provided an answer within your over 29 posts to this apparent contradiction, that I could find. Nor any other Scripture except Psalm 37 which you misrepresent it’s message.

There is no contradiction with Matt 25:41 or Rev 20:10-11 (or any other passage), with my view.


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 ESV)

The place of “eternal fireâ€, Hell, that’s actually for the devil and his angels (not necessarily the goats), is where they (the goats) also receive their punishment (death and pain). The fire burns on eternally, the Devil remains there and the goats suffer their punishment according to their works as God (their judge) decides, not you or I. Might be 28 days or 28 seconds, ironically. Might be more horrendous/painful to some than others. Probably is via other scriptures that indicate “levels of tormentâ€, which technically argues for their punishment not being eternal since infinity in torment would all therefore be equal no matter the pain level experienced. (infinity + 1 day = infinity)

But the real point is that the text NEVER says it’s going to be eternal torment for the goats, only the “fire†is eternal.

The way I see it, that’s pretty much the only option to reconcile the clear teaches all throughout the Bible (see posts #26,#52,#76,#135) that are as clear as a bell teaching goats get a second death, not an eternity of torment. But again, I’ve looked at your three passages already. I counted more than 24 different Scriptures that indicate a final death for goat’s and the only one you commented on was Psalm 37 (see your error below on how you seem to “explain†that discrepancy away and my previous posts on Psalm 37)

@Doulous Iesou was trying to answer your questions until you told him that he believed in three different doctrines that he never said he believed in.

You believe that the unrighteous go to hell, but cannot feel the pain in their consciousness, no scripture support. #2. You believe hell isn't eternal, so if it's not eternal how long do they stay in hell, no scripture support. #3. What happens to their soul when they 'serve their time in hell'. Do they serve their time in hell, then are forgiven and go to heaven, no scripture support.

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. You drive people away with posts like this and therefore I cannot learn from them. If you don’t want to learn more about Scripture why are you even posting in A&T?

Then you accuse me and TimothyW of misrepresenting Psalm 37 with:

Do you understand that you misinterpreted Psalm 37.

And again, sadly your position about Psalm 37 is not even correct. And I can prove it Biblically:

You say about Psalm 37:

He's talking about how they won't bother you as you walk this earth because of righteousness

Salvation is only granted in this lifetime as you walk the earth.

Yet Jesus specifically quotes this very Psalm with:

Matt5:5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Which nobody in their right mind takes as being an “earthly walk†event or “salvation in this lifetimeâ€, whatever that means.

But once again you stifle the good conversation(s) with your false misrepresentations about Deulous, TimotyW and My positions.

 

[Guest]

@chessman Eternal Punishment is in Matthew 25:46. You're also forgetting that they also mention the lake of fire in Rev 20:10-11, where it confirms the condition and the time spent, torment and forever and ever. Everlasting and eternal are synonyms bro.

If hell isn't for humans after judgment day then why Rev 20:14-15, Rev 20:10-11, Matthew 25:41 and Matthew 25:46. He's not talking about your pet cat who did bad things and clawed your curtains when you weren't home, no. Jesus died on the cross to save human beings. Asking about where animals go after they die is off topic. Again, Psalm 37 has nothing to do with pain in hell or how long you spend in hell. I think you just like to argue and create chaos in God's Word.

Human Beings: ANYONE'S NAME/THEM/THESE/THOSE/CURSED - Rev 20:14-15 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-11 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[chessman]

So here’s the fundamental point/disagreement between you and I. You include humans into Verses 10 when the text clearly means for humans NOT to be included there. Else why would John say “then I saw…” and go on with the vision to verses 14-15 where there it’s talking about humans and NOT the devil?

Human Beings: ANYONE'S NAME/THEM/THESE/THOSE/CURSED - Rev 20:14-15 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-11 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

@chessman Eternal Punishment is in Matthew 25:46. You're also forgetting that they also mention the lake of fire in Rev 20:10-11, where it confirms the condition and the time spent, torment and forever and ever. Everlasting and eternal are synonyms bro.

Yes I know eternal punishment is in Matthew 25:46. But Eternal Punishing (perpetually, day and night) is not. People assume that because the Bible does say eternal punishing, eternal pain, eternal torment goes on forever and ever, day and night FOR THE DEVIL in Rev 20:10-11.

BUT (and this is a huge BUT) Rev 20 clearly distinguishes the eternal torment of the Devil versus humans' death in Rev 20. That's my point.

If hell isn't for humans after judgment day then why Rev 20:14-15, Rev 20:10-11, …

Neither I nor anyone else posting here has said Hell is not for humans after judgment day. Once again, you are the only one that has said this. Why do you do that? Just to irk people off? Assuming that’s not, in fact, the reason and you are asking me to clarify my point about these passages, I’ll try to clarify my position once again below.

Hell (the lake of fire) IS for un-saved human’s punishment. I’ll say it again. Hell is for the punishment of those not given eternal life. They stand, they are judged, they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which, for them, IS their punishment. I’m sure it will be extremely painful and it still scares me especially for my friends that do not “know Christ”. For them, it is their pain and their death. Maybe God turns up the temp to 350 degrees for some and 450 degrees for Hitler. I don’t know. I believe there are differing levels of their pain and for possibly longer durations depending on their level of rejection of what God has revealed to them and their hateful acts toward God’s creatures (people). But that’s probably and new topic.

However, will that pain/punishment last forever and ever? I say no for the humans. Here’s why:

Rev 20:14-15 clearly says it is their death (humans). You are the one saying it’s not eventually death but rather it goes on eternal, forever and ever. Even though you’ve referenced this passage.

This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And I’m sure it is because of Rev 20:10-11 and what people/pastors have told you for many years. That’s why at one time I thought the same thing. However, not to be argumentative but for Bible Study and learning about God’s Word:

Rev 20:10-11 is about the Devil (not humans) and verses 10-11 is where the Devil is “tormented for day and night forever and ever”.

At this point, I cannot think of a way to clarify what I’ve said about Rev 20 any plainer than I have. I encourage you to step back for just 5 minutes (and just 5 minutes) and re-read the entire chapter of Rev 20 trying out the idea that Rev 20:10-11 is about the Devil and Rev 20:14-15 is about humans. They are not the same. Rev teaches they will not be treated the same. That's not really my opinion so much as that's what the text says. People assume they are treated the same. If you then do not agree with me, fine. We disagree. Nothing wrong with that. But you then at least understand why I am saying what I am. Because at this point, it seems you either do not understand what I’m saying or just what to irk me. I’m not posting to be argumentative toward you or anyone else.

Plus, I never said “Hell is not for humans” (you did) and I will defend my posts against anyone that implies I have.

Asking about where animals go after they die is off topic

I know. I was simply using “goats” as a metaphor for the un-saved people that are sent to Hell. That’s all. I know that any discussion of literal animals’ fate in (heaven/hell) would be a different topic. That wasn’t what I meant.

Psalm 37 has nothing to do with pain in hell or how long you spend in hell.

I disagree. And here’s why Biblically speaking. When it says:

Fret not yourself because of evildoers;
be not envious of wrongdoers!
For they will soon fade like the grass
and wither like the green herb. (Psalm 37:1-2 ESV)
​

I do take “evildoers” as a foreshadowing of their final fate in Hell. When I read “fade like the grass”, I take that to foreshadow their final pain and death.
But because it’s poetic and prophecy (confirmed by Jesus) it is not as clear about the evildoer’s final fate as other Scriptures are. But, this point (this passage) is not even that critical to answering the question; Humans in Hell, are they there for eternity or not? Because there are dozens of other passages in the Bible that says they have a death sentence in Hell, not eternal punishmING there. This is by no means the only place their fate is discussed. It’s not death by hanging or death by the electric chair. It’s death by fire. But death it is.

For example (even though it’s apocalyptic language) I find Rev 20 pretty clear on this subject (after studying it) and it’s clearly discussing the final fate of the Devil (Satan) and both saved people and un-saved people. But you have to make sure that you read the whole chapter and find out where it is the passages are talking about Satan and his demons, versus where it’s talking about saved people and where it’s talking about un-saved people. They are all not treated the same. Rev 20:14-15 is talking about un-saved humans. Rev 20:10-11 is talking about Satan and his demons. Earlier it's talking about the saints.

This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

That's pretty clear to me.

I think you just like to argue and create chaos in God's Word.

No, I don’t like to argue or create chaos in God’s Word. I capitalize God’s Word just like you do.

When I point out that Jesus himself confirms Psalm’s 37 is in fact a prophecy about heaven/hell, I’m not doing it just to argue with you. It’s for edification and Bible Study. Again, I’d encourage you to just try the idea out for 5 minutes and then if you still reject it, fine. No problem. But, at least re-read all of Psalm 37 then Matt 5 and just see whether I’m making any sense here or not. I could even be wrong about it and I’d appreciate it if you’d show me in Scripture where this idea is wrong.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
“Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
(Matthew 5:3-5 ESV)
​

I am told by Bible Scholars that “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” is an actual quote by Jesus from Psalm 37.

Now they, or I, could be wrong. Fine, I’ll be wrong then. But I find it pretty convincing evidence and consistent with the rest of the Bible.

 

[Drew]

Hebrew and Greek men? Do you have proof that these 'men' were the author's of the 66 books.

In case you did not know this: all the texts of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, and all the texts of the New Testament were written in Greek.

Again: The point is - and I can prove it - is that in at least some cases, the Hebrew or Greek work that gets translated as "eternal" actually can mean "lasting for an age".

 

[Drew]

Ok everyone, I believe what you all are saying. I can commit all the sins I want, be judged by God and then God sends me to a place where I don't suffer, I cease to exist, end of existence. Wow, that's an awesome fate. So when Jesus died on the cross he was saving us from permanant sleep??? If this is true, then God's salvation is nothing more than petty.

I don't think its petty at all. The God of the Scriptures is a creative God - He delights in the creation and sustenance of life. Death is the destruction of precious life. So to take away life is indeed something very serious indeed.

You appear to be focused on afterlife as a "punishment" or a "reward". That strikes me as a little off-center. We should not be trying to lead sinless lives simply to avoid a big punishment and to get a nice reward; we should lead sinless lives precisely because we want to model ourselves after the creative life-sustaining agent that God is.

 

[Guest]

Hebrew and Greek men? Do you have proof that these 'men' were the author's of the 66 books.

In case you did not know this: all the texts of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew, and all the texts of the New Testament were written in Greek.

Again: The point is - and I can prove it - is that in at least some cases, the Hebrew or Greek work that gets translated as "eternal" actually can mean "lasting for an age".

Ok, so prove that whoever wrote 'lasting for an age' was in fact an author of one or more of the 66 books and a prophet indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and also where it is written in scripture. I'm just confused of why one author/prophet of the Bible would write eternal/everlasting and another author/prophet would write lasting for an age. If it's lasting for an age, why doesn't the Bible tell us when hell stops. These two are clearly specifying two different time lines. Either way, being in hell for a certain age wouldn't be good regardless. Blessings.

 

[Elijah674]

I have always heard that the people that go to hell will experience actual physical pain like being burned alive constantly forever. But someone once told me that this is not true. They said imagine if your own child rebelled and disobeyed you their whole life and never changed. Would you even take a lighter and make them hold their arm out and burn them for even a few seconds to punish them? Then they said well, it is the same for us as we are God's children and hell is separation from God and most likely mental/emotional pain.
I am not saying I believe this because I know God doesn't send us to hell anyway. We send our selves there. But on the other hand God created everything.
This scares me and makes me feel the urgency to witness to as many people as possible.

Not to be miss applied, but what other pain is there?

--Elijah

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ok, so prove that whoever wrote 'lasting for an age' was in fact an author of one or more of the 66 books and a prophet indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and also where it is written in scripture. I'm just confused of why one author/prophet of the Bible would write eternal/everlasting and another author/prophet would write lasting for an age. If it's lasting for an age, why doesn't the Bible tell us when hell stops. These two are clearly specifying two different time lines. Either way, being in hell for a certain age wouldn't be good regardless. Blessings.

Urk, I'm sure by now you are well aware that the authorship of many of the biblical writing cannot be proven. There is no way we can know for certain who wrote books like Matthew, Mark, or John.

As for the author's usage of words, we can be fairly certain that words like eternal and everlasting were NEVER used. These words were added by translators centuries after the original writings were penned. The Greek NT word, aion(os) has been translated as eternal, forever, but is actually more closely related to the English words, age and eon. Needless to say that neither rendering says anything of an eternity, but rather an indefinate time period.

 

[Drew]

Ok, so prove that whoever wrote 'lasting for an age' was in fact an author of one or more of the 66 books and a prophet indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and also where it is written in scripture.

The following addresses this issue of "forever" vs "for an age", but in an entirely different context. But the same principles apply to the issue of the fate of the lost:

The following text from Genesis 17 is often used to argue that God promised the land of Canaan to the Jews forever:

I will give the whole land of Canaan – the land where you are now residing – to you and your descendants after you as a permanent possession. I will be their God.”

The Hebrew word that is translated as “permanent” is the word “owlam”. Note how the definition of this word is fluid – embracing the eternality that would support the common reading of this text (that Canaan has been promised to the Jews forever), but also allowing for a reading that does not denote eternality:

Definition (from Net Bible): 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting,
evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

And here we have an example from Isaiah 42 of this same word used in a context where eternality is certainly not intended:

The LORD emerges like a hero,
like a warrior he inspires himself for battle;
he shouts, yes, he yells,
he shows his enemies his power.
I have been inactive for a long time;
I kept quiet and held back.
Like a woman in labor I groan;
I pant and gasp.
I will make the trees on the mountains and hills wither up;
I will dry up all their vegetation.
I will turn streams into islands,
and dry up pools of water.

Clearly God is talking about talking action after a long period of “inactivity”. So here, the word “owlam” does not denote an everlasting period of time – it denotes a limited duration of time.

So one cannot simply assume that Genesis 17:8 entails a promise of Canaan to the Israelites forever. That is one reading that needs to be considered, but there are others as well.

 

[Drew]

I'm just confused of why one author/prophet of the Bible would write eternal/everlasting and another author/prophet would write lasting for an age.

I think you need to remember that somebody other than the original writer of Scripture has to make translation decisions.

Consider the Hebrew word "owlam". Sometimes the decision is to translate this as "forever"; sometime the decision is to translate this as "for a long time" - see my previous post, please.

The important point to remember is that the word "owlam" can mean either, depending on context. So its at least possible that an error has been made when "owlam" has been translated one way, and not the other.

 

[Guest]

What you guys are talking about is beyond my studying. I'm not gonna act like I have a theology degree too. I'll just stop here.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What you guys are talking about is beyond my studying. I'm not gonna act like I have a theology degree too. I'll just stop here.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=33358&highlight=

The thread in the above link touches on the issues we've been discussing.

 

[chessman]

I'm not gonna act like I have a theology degree too. I'll just stop here.

so you are / were just trying to irk us. There's no theology degree required to see that the wages of sin is death.

 

[Elijah674]

I'm not gonna act like I have a theology degree too. I'll just stop here.

so you are / were just trying to irk us. There's no theology degree required to see that the wages of sin is death.

James 1:15 agrees!

--Elijah

 

[Guest]

I'm not gonna act like I have a theology degree too. I'll just stop here.

so you are / were just trying to irk us. There's no theology degree required to see that the wages of sin is death.

Sorry if you got urk'd. I am however the urkalater, the urksizzler, and the urkabode. I understand the wages of sin is death. That's very important to know saved or unsaved.

 

[TimothyW]

Dude, you had me going! That's funny.

 

[Guest]

The urkalater will have ya on your knees praying for salvation. The urksizzler got you thinkin' God thoughts ignoring the devil's lies. The urkabode reals you in with a nice comfy setting and draws you in to God.

 

[TimothyW]

The urksizzler got you thinkin' God thoughts ignoring the devil's lies.

Yeah thanks.

We should ignore the devil's lies, starting with his first one, "Surely you will not die". God's Word says For the wages of sin is death, Death entered the world through sin, but we can have Eternal Life by faith in Jesus Christ.