Is Scripture Alone is Biblical?

[follower of Christ]

The Bible alone cannot serve as its own authoritative source for the claim of being an authoritative source.

Sure it can.
Who says it cant ? You ? Fallible mans 'logic' ?
No thanks. *I* trust God in the matter.

This is called circular reasoning

Yeah. another member here already made it very clear what fallible, limited minds call the concept.
Call it what you will it is entirely irrelevant and VERY clearly its sole purpose is to undermine FAITH in God.
I love how science and philosophy always claims it isnt trying to remove God, but then the very crap they come up with serves that very purpose.

Gods word is what He gave thru His prophets and apostles for His people. Therefore it IS His word and thus IS authoritative by definition.
If some prefer their pitiful arguments of 'logic' bound within the finite, so be it, just dont expect the REST of us in His church to give up our absolute faith in Him and HIs word just because it doesnt have 'This is Gods word' in the beginning of each book.
Those that know better dont put such absurd demands on the texts.

If the Bible is to be considered God's word and to carry God's authority within the Church, then it is necessary for there to be some source external to the Bible through which we can know the Bible is God's word.

Maybe for the catholic, not for most protestants who trust God and how He brought His word into being.

This was the argument which francisdesales was pushing within the other thread. It's logical and reasonable.

It is reasonable to those who feel the need to plague their minds with fallible 'logic' and pitiful philosophies that serve no purpose but to destroy faith in God.

And Im not an idiot. I know why FD demands what he does. Its all about bringing it full circle back to the Roman Catholic Church and her supposed 'authority' that she believes she has.

And you actually agree with it.

You had better learn to read then because I dont agree.

I know you agree with it because you are appealing to a source external to the Bible.

Again, learn to read.
Ive stated more than once that there is PLENTY of evidence WITHIN the texts themselves to show that it IS Gods word, such as;

And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
(1Ki 2:3 KJV)

FD simply argues that it doesnt say Gods Word in EVERY book, such as Philemon.
IF anything FD agrees with me that MUCH of scripture DOES show that its God word. ;)

You are appealing to God.

Actually *IF* you read what *I* have said, I said that the Spirit CONFIRMS to us that the bible is His word. I never said that that was REQUIRED. The evidence within the TEXTS of the bible is quite enough to KNOW that it IS Gods word.

You are arguing that through faith in God, God will provide people with the knowledge needed to know that the Bible is God's word.

Gee, thats such a terribly hard thing to buy, isnt it ?
I mean, I believe this God created ALL that is....so I really dont know why Id waste my time believing that He can speak to His people

Hence, it seems really strange that you continue to argue against francisdesales on this point.

Nothing strange about it for one who HAS READ the actual discusion...
FD says we MUST go to the CHURCH to know if the bible is Gods word, which is complete nonsense.
Pay attention to the discussion in these threads please, so we dont go on for three pages about irrelevance and error.

Perhaps you have misunderstood him?

Perhaps you did ?

Perhaps you are convinced he is attempting to push Catholic propaganda?

FD's profile says all I need to see given his continual attack against the protestant rejection of Catholic Church authority.

Perhaps you are merely debating for the sake of debate?

And why are YOU here again ?

Perhaps your pride is preventing you from recognizing and/or admitting that you agree?

Perhaps you should learn to read the entire discussion to see that someone DOESNT agree instead of assuming they do ?
*IF* I agreed with FD Id have no problem admitting it. ;)

Perhaps you believe some quasi-Christian idea about God and the Bible being one in the same entity?

Who even knows what your running on about now.
Can you stay on topic please ?

I do not know your reason for persisting with this debate when it's clear you do not really disagree with francisdesales.

Maybe you can use this reverse psychology nonsense on someone with whom it may actually work ?



have a nice day

 

[Guest]

I will entertain your suggestion that circular reasoning is logically valid. Applying circular reasoning, I am going to make the following arguments.

Argument #1: Follower of Christ is wrong because follower of Christ is wrong.
Argument #2: Minnesota is right because minnesota is right.

 

[follower of Christ]

I will entertain your suggestion that circular reasoning is logically valid. Applying circular reasoning, I am going to make the following arguments.

Argument #1: Follower of Christ is wrong because follower of Christ is wrong.
Argument #2: Minnesota is right because minnesota is right.

As I said, Im not interested in fallible, short-sighted, limited, egotistical, self-important mans ideas of 'logic' and philosophy.
Interestingly enough, part of what kept the Jews in trouble with God was thinking THEY knew better than God what was best and apparently not being able to just accept His law as His law and obey it.
Sort of like what folks do today ;)

Keep showing us examples of these logical arguments, M....I'll chime in the first time Im actually impressed by one

Gods word is Gods word because GOD spoke it thru His prophets and apostles.
Seems easy enough....

 

[Guest]

Keep showing us examples of these logical arguments, M.

You do realize neither of the two arguments presented are logical, right?

 

[Guest]

Gods word is Gods word because GOD spoke it thru His prophets and apostles.
Seems easy enough....

Seems like someone's again appealing to an outside source.

 

[duval]

Gen.1:1: "in the begining God created----". That is not circular. The Bible does not set about to prove its self. It simply states, its up to us to believe it or not, to accept or reject. As for myself I believe every word of it.

God bless.
duval

 

[follower of Christ]

Gen.1:1: "in the begining God created----". That is not circular. The Bible does not set about to prove its self. It simply states, its up to us to believe it or not, to accept or reject. As for myself I believe every word of it.

God bless.
duval

There ya go.
This circular logic nonsense can be used by the faithless to pretty much destroy the witness of Gods word.
My guess is that THAT is the purpose...even if some dont seem to grasp that fact

 

[follower of Christ]

Keep showing us examples of these logical arguments, M.

You do realize neither of the two arguments presented are logical, right?

 

[follower of Christ]

Gods word is Gods word because GOD spoke it thru His prophets and apostles.
Seems easy enough....

Seems like someone's again appealing to an outside source.

You mean the Author Himself ?
Certainly am. Because HIS word tells me that His Spirit testifies to me. His Spirit GUIDES me into all truth and wisdom. The 'church' does not.

And secondly, and again...since you seem to be ignoring anything that gets in your way, the SCRIPTURES themselves contain enough evidence in the texts to discern that it IS Gods word.
Are we done here, or, as you put it...."Perhaps you are merely debating for the sake of debate? "

 

[Guest]

Gen.1:1: "in the begining God created----". That is not circular. The Bible does not set about to prove its self. It simply states, its up to us to believe it or not, to accept or reject. As for myself I believe every word of it.

You are correct. The Bible does not seek to prove itself. Which is why the circular reasoning being employed by follower of Christ is absurd.

 

[follower of Christ]

Gen.1:1: "in the begining God created----". That is not circular. The Bible does not set about to prove its self. It simply states, its up to us to believe it or not, to accept or reject. As for myself I believe every word of it.

You are correct. The Bible does not seek to prove itself. Which is why the circular reasoning being employed by follower of Christ is absurd.

What is absurd is for those who are absurd to demand that a letter from my wife say 'This is a letter from your wife' when the EVIDENCE in that letter shows conclusively that she wrote it without any such demands placed on the text.

It is absurd that this so called 'logic' that some of you use is so obscene and an offense against the intellect that it doesnt seem to grasp even the most basic concepts of common sense and reason.

THAT is what is absurd.

 

[Guest]

Sigh. My patience with stupidity has run out.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sigh. My patience with stupidity has run out.

Great. See ya.

 

[francisdesales]

Its VERY clear that you are basically saying that we CANNOT trust GOD in the matter...that HE decided what HE wanted in HIS 'bible' for instruction to HIS people.

It is very clear you still don't get it. You continue with your circular arguments and you still fail to see that the Muslim and the Mormon can make the exact goofy argument you make - "God TOLD me that the Holy Word of God is found in the Koran/Book of Mormon..."

You have yet to answer that question because you prefer to ignore this... If you rely on "God told me", then an unbiased observer will have to say that either God lies to some people or some people are not hearing God tell them what Scriptures is - THUS "YOUR" way is a joke and NOT how a person concludes that the Bible is the Word of God...

I dont care how many times YOU think we need to go thru this...the answers will remain the SAME.

Yes, you're wrong in your arguments that conclude that the bible is the Word of God.

Perhaps you NEED someone to tell you how to think, because you don't seem to be able to do it yourself.

 

[follower of Christ]

It is very clear you still don't get it. You continue with your circular arguments and you still fail to see that the Muslim and the Mormon can make the exact goofy argument you make - "God TOLD me that the Holy Word of God is found in the Koran/Book of Mormon..."

Hilarious.
And YOU still dont get it that the SAME applies to YOUR illogical argument.
By YOUR view if Mormon or Muslim MEN make the CLAIM that their writings are 'gods word' then YOUR views mean that we MUST ASSUME that those writings ARE 'gods word'.

I find it astounding that you dont seem to be able to catch on to this fact.
The difference between your view and that of the muslim is the words 'church' and 'mosque', one would think.

You have yet to answer that question because you prefer to ignore this...

Sorry but it WAS answered in another thread that apparently you didnt bother to read.

If you rely on "God told me", then an unbiased observer will have to say that either God lies to some people or some people are not hearing God tell them what Scriptures is - THUS "YOUR" way is a joke and NOT how a person concludes that the Bible is the Word of God...

And If I rely on 'MAN told me' then I subject myself to the whims of MEN who can tell me that the writings of christian weirdos like Augustine are also 'gods word' if they so choose.

Yes, you're wrong in your arguments that conclude that the bible is the Word of God.

So then youre claiming that when scripture shows that it IS the words of the Lord that it is lying, correct ?

And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself:
(1Ki 2:3 KJV)

Perhaps you NEED someone to tell you how to think, because you don't seem to be able to do it yourself.

Perhaps if you start this again *I* will be the one who hits the report button this time

 

[lutheran52381]

Amen.

 

[Paidion]

Well, as a non-Catholic and non-Protestant, I see valid points which Francis made, for which FoC was unable to intellectually answer, but did give an emotional reply which did nothing except to further divide.

It is indeed illogical to claim the Bible as the sole authority if one has no rational basis for accepting that particular list of writings as constituting "the Bible".

It won't do to say that God worked things out so that the "inspired" books got collected to form "the word of God." At which stage did they get so collected? Even the 1611 King James Bible contained the deutero-canonical books. Second century lists included Clement's letter to the Corinthians and omitted 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and the Apocalypse. So, FoC, whether you accept the authority of the Catholic Church or not, you have still accepted some authority as valid who bound together the writings you accept as "the word of God" ---- and that authority is OUTSIDE the Protestant Bible as well as the Catholic Bible. So since you accept the decision of an authority exterior to the Bible, then your claim that "The Bible only is the word of God," is invalid.

In any case, I think the two of you could discuss this matter without the insults, so that the thread could continue and we could together seek truth and reality.

 

[Cornelius]

It is indeed illogical to claim the Bible as the sole authority if one has no rational basis for accepting that particular list of writings as constituting "the Bible".

I have presented the rational basis already in another thread. Most do not want to look at it, and prefer to look at opinions. God placed the mathematical or numeric pattern in the Bible. Its NOT the Bible Code, nor is it Numerology. Its maths.

So as people can argue until they are blue, but it will not change the fact that God supernaturally wrote what we know today as the "Bible" through ordinary people. The whole Bible has this same mathematical pattern and none of the books that were left out has it. Is that difficult to understand ? I find easy to understand.It means God wrote it and used the bodies of the people He chose to do so.

So the Bible self-authenticates . It cannot be disproven, it can only be ignored, and that does not make it go away. Its a reality.

C

 

[follower of Christ]

Well, as a non-Catholic and non-Protestant, I see valid points which Francis made, for which FoC was unable to intellectually answer, but did give an emotional reply which did nothing except to further divide.

And frankly, not EVERYthing the christian believe has to BE answered according to intellect.
Im really sorry if some here, especially protestants, are unable to see that REASON does not rule our FAITH...FAITH in GOD does.

It is indeed illogical to claim the Bible as the sole authority if one has no rational basis for accepting that particular list of writings as constituting "the Bible".

And again, *I* trust GOD that He has preserved His NT just as Paul shows VERY clearly in Romans that God DID DO with the OT scriptures threw the hand of the Jews.
If someone is incapable of seeing the logic and reason in that, then theres not much point in trying to rehash it out for them...kwim?

It won't do to say that God worked things out so that the "inspired" books got collected to form "the word of God."

Really ?
I think youd better talk to Paul about the Jews and the OT scriptures then...

At which stage did they get so collected? Even the 1611 King James Bible contained the deutero-canonical books. Second century lists included Clement's letter to the Corinthians and omitted 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and the Apocalypse. So, FoC, whether you accept the authority of the Catholic Church or not, you have still accepted some authority as valid who bound together the writings you accept as "the word of God" ---- and that authority is OUTSIDE the Protestant Bible as well as the Catholic Bible. So since you accept the decision of an authority exterior to the Bible, then your claim that "The Bible only is the word of God," is invalid.

So Paidon, what part of my arguments have you missed ? Did you BOTHER to READ the OTHER thread that was locked that had much more to it that FD seems to be trying to forget about as well ?

The statement that the word of God is hardly invalid simply because fd and paidon make it.
Paul shows CONCLUSIVELY that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God....the very scriptures that Paul and Jesus quoted. So we KNOW factually that, unless God is inept and Paul and Jesus be liars, that the OT scriptures WERE preserved and IS the word of God.
With the NT scriptures we see in MANY places where Jesus is speaking Himself (ie the 'word of GOD') and in other places we see that the Holy Spirit or the Lord has given direct instruction (ie the 'word of GOD')
Francis' ONLY actual argument here whether you see it or like it or not is that SOME letters such as Philemon, dont actually have a huge neon sign that says 'THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD" in their titles, so with THOSE books alone FD can try to claim ONLY that they are not inspired by God.
And the problem that arises in that is that this means GOD HIMSELF is inept....which is a point that FD, and apparently now you, seem to be in agreement in.
*IF* the bible is not the word of God then GOD is the one who failed to preserve His word.
GOD, not the Jews, is responsible for preserving His word and His law.
GOD, not the Catholics, Is responsible for preserving His NT instruction for His church.


As for your ridiculous authority statement, what part of 'I trust God' have you missed ?
By your logic *I* would have had to have TRUSTED the Old Covenant Jews who were entirely disobedient and hardhearted in order to BELIEVE that, as Paul clearly shows, they were entrusted with the words of God.
Just because God used the Jews as a nation to record and preserve His word DOES NOT mean that they were godly and obedient, Im afraid.
The Jews were BLINDED to the very scriptures they were entrusted with.
Just because God used the CC....the "power" at the time.....to bring His word together does not mean that they are my authority or trustworthy for doctrine any more than the Old covenant Jews were.
Using the Romans to gather up His word was the perfect way to do it given the power and ability they had.

As far as the OT writings that dont belong, what did the Hebrews show as being the OT scriptures ?
That part of scripture was entrusted TO the Jews so I take their version of it as being Gods word.

As far as the NT goes, I accept that what we have now is what God wanted us to have.
If He had WANTED some letters like Hebrews omitted, as some did, then He easily could have had it removed...or are you saying that He couldnt have ?

 

[follower of Christ]

It is indeed illogical to claim the Bible as the sole authority if one has no rational basis for accepting that particular list of writings as constituting "the Bible".

I have presented the rational basis already in another thread. Most do not want to look at it, and prefer to look at opinions. God placed the mathematical or numeric pattern in the Bible. Its NOT the Bible Code, nor is it Numerology. Its maths.

I didnt read those posts much as I dont really understand the math involved. I had seen some stuff like that way back in the early 80s and didnt really get it then either :D

Point is tho that since the other thread was locked apparently we get to pretend like nothing has been said and start this all over again and some here get to act like we havent already presented an overwhelming case already simply because its not in THIS thread....because frankly, who wants to keep having to say the same things over and again because a new thread gets started ?

And we know what will happen here again. Just a soon as this thread dies into the night another catholic will come by and post yet another Sola Scriptura question knowing full well what the motivation is and we'll all get to get on the merry-go-round for another week.

This sort of tripe is EXACTLY why I do my studies. I get sick of having to post the same exact nonsense over and again for someones amusement.
And the motivation becomes clear after a while. If we keep rehashing the same exact thing over and over eventually they figure we'll just grow tired of typing about it and give up. Ive seen this 1000 times already.

So as people can argue until they are blue, but it will not change the fact that God supernaturally wrote what we know today as the "Bible" through ordinary people.

Exactly.
And Paul proves this in Romans when he says that the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God.

So the Bible self-authenticates . It cannot be disproven, it can only be ignored, and that does not make it go away. Its a reality.

I find it pathetically sad that as His children we are basically pulling the same tripe as the Jews did....."I need PROOF".
When one looks at the Old Covenant it was THAT attitude that was the destruction of that covenant.
Unbelief...LACK of FAITH in GOD...was the Jewish epidemic.

Sorry to everyone who doesnt like it but *I* have faith in God that HE did with His NEW testament exactly what Paul shows that He did with the OLD....