Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[FreeGrace]

You have been arguing over and over and over again that a person can even go back to being an unbeliever and still be saved. Are you going to change your argument?

I've proven from Scripture that once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. And one who has believed IS a child of God, regardless of what happens in the future (Rom 8:38, which you keep ignoring).

Being an unbeliever is not being a believer.

So what? Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God. Which you cannot disprove. God's gift and call are irrevocable.

If you have stopped trusting in Christ and have become an unbeliever it is impossible that you are still a believer.

That one is STILL a child of God. Which you have not disproved. God's gift and call are irrevocable.

And you have to be a believer who trusts in the blood of Christ to make it through the coming Judgment.

WRONG! One must possess eternal life to "make it through the coming Judgment". Rev 20:15. And those who HAVE believed in Christ HAVE eternal life.

You've never proven that God removes eternal life from anyone. That's just your assumption.


To argue otherwise is to make the incredibly ridiculous claim that unbelievers will be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[FreeGrace]

Right, he can not deny his own body. He denies those who deny him.

Please look at the whole context of 2 Tim 2:12. It contains 2 conditional statements. The first conditional is about reigning with Christ. Not getting saved. Reigning with Christ is a reward for "enduring" in the faith. The second conditional is about loss of that reward. "if we deny Him (meaning to not endure), He will deny us, meaning denying the privilege of reigning with Him.

Please refute that with substance.

Those who deny him are by definition unbelievers.

I just proved that your view of 2 Tim 2:12 is incorrect.

Unbelievers do not belong to God that he has some kind of obligation to not deny them.

All of God's children belong to Him. Your statements are without any substance.

When one believes, the Holy Spirit indwells them. yes or no

Jesus promised the coming Holy Spirit would be with those who believe forever. yes or no

Those who have the Holy Spirit have God. yes or no

God cannot deny Himself. yes or no

This is logical, sensible and Biblical. And irrefutable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How ridiculous. You're saying that an unbeliever is still a child of God. You're plainly saying unbelievers will pass through the coming Judgment safely, yet you agreed that the suggestion is ludicrous.

Are you going to explain how Israel can have the gift of adoption of sons, yet are condemned and not saved because of their unbelief? You have to explain it because it goes completely contrary to your assertion that 'once a son, always a son'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your problem is you are not taking into consideration the whole counsel of scripture concerning 'denying Christ':

"...you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." (Revelation 2:13 NASB)

"Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.' (Revelation 2:10-11 NASB)

5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Revelation 3:5 NASB)

We see here that to not deny Christ is to gain the crown of life, not be hurt by the second death, be clothed in white, not have your name erased from the book of life, besides not being denied by Christ. But you say that the only advantage to not denying Christ is that you will reign with him. This additional counsel of scripture show us that you can not narrowly interpret 2 Timothy 2:11-12 NASB the way you do.

 

[Chopper]

Yes, I am aware of your theory.

And thank you for going on record that you believe that the non-elect have to hold on to their faith in order to be saved, or else go to hell.

Absolutely my good friend. I am on record! That is my theology and I can back it up with the Word of God.

 

[Chopper]

I started to pray for this devil worshipper. He could quote perfectly whole chapters of the bible. Never meet someone like that. HE worked for bill Graham in the early 70's and some things happened that got him mad at the Lord. Years passed and he started to get into Satanism. At one time he was on fire for God, him and the wife went all over witnessing the gospel. When I went to pray for him the Lord said don't, he has made his choice and won't come back. I always believed if there is breath there is hope.

One other case was a women who served God as a child. I remember her as a 19 year old always trying to get me to Jesus. That is all she talked about, and was annoying as I wanted nothing to do with Jesus at the time. 20 years latter my wife and I met her again and invited her over for old time discussion. I was excited to tell her I know Jesus, considering all the badgering she use to put me through.

She said that Jesus was just a historic character and through college she learned the truth that their are many ways to your own salvation. The Lord asked me not to pray for her either.

Two cases, glade through the years I have only seen two and they are rare. Most say t HEY left Christianity, (religion) they never knew the Lord though, jus t religious mess that don't count.

Thank you my friend. Your response to those people were absolutely Scriptural, of course, God told you not to pray for them. Thank you for listening to your Father.

 

[chessman]

And the ...'s:

my fellow countrymen according to the flesh,​

"...who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons..." (Romans 9:4 NASB)

For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,​

But you are sure 'once a son always a son' is truth.

I am. Why? Because;

Romans 8-9 (LEB) For all those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. ...​

And

The Spirit himself confirms to our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, also heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer together with him so that we may also be glorified together with him.
...
it is not as if the word of God had failed. ...​

If His children fail christ also fails with him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good, maybe we'll get somewhere now.

The promise of what is to come is how Paul can say that Israel's gifting and calling to be sons of God--a gift they have not received--is irrevocable. It's a proof text that shows God will fulfill his promise--not to people who reject him but are saved nevertheless--but to some Israelites somewhere who will not reject him. It's hardly a proof text that says salvation can not be taken back. The passage is about the calling and gifting of Israel as a nation not being revoked.

 

[Brother Mike]

Here are 2 very sad examples of what 1 Peter 5:8: 8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

They were devoured by the devil.

I don't know. The Lord never told me they were not going to heaven. I have learned to not add to or fill in the blanks when the Lord speaks to us. Hard to do as the human brain likes to fill in the missing information.

There is that scripture about John saying don't pray if you see a brother so pm a sin unto death. John then warns at the end to stay away from idols. The same sin in Hebrews where someone counted the blood covenant unworthy, and walked away.

I am not the judge. I don't know. I know believers who have walked away from the Lord for years, out of his will, and they continued to be placed on my heart for prayer. These two, the Lord said no, they made their choice. Whatever that means.

I don't believe someone just can't be unsaved through their own wrong actions. I don't believe the Lord is holding anyone hostage either.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know. The Lord never told me they were not going to heaven. I have learned to not add to or fill in the blanks when the Lord speaks to us. Hard to do as the human brain likes to fill in the missing information.

There is that scripture about John saying don't pray if you see a brother so pm a sin unto death. John then warns at the end to stay away from idols. The same sin in Hebrews where someone counted the blood covenant unworthy, and walked away.

I am not the judge. I don't know. I know believers who have walked away from the Lord for years, out of his will, and they continued to be placed on my heart for prayer. These two, the Lord said no, they made their choice. Whatever that means.

I don't believe someone just can't be unsaved through their own wrong actions. I don't believe the Lord is holding anyone hostage either.

Blessings.

Also, Jeremiah was told not to petition his people. God had determined that they will in fact now be exiled. It was too late to change that. But we know that a remnant did come back from that exile.

 

[jasonc]

Oh, you've changed the goalposts. No "simple prayer" saves anyone. One is saved when one believes IN Jesus Christ FOR eternal life. Did you ever do that? Your faith needs THE object and purpose for salvation. Nothing less will save.


I'm not interested in what the 'modern church' says. That doesn't really define who is saying what. The only source of truth is Scripture.


The issue is that when a person believes in Christ, they become a new creature, a child of God, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And God CANNOT deny Himself, per 2 Tim 2:13.

I know what prayer is and to whom., I did all that, basically if what you said is true then fully who is it that I went back to something I choose to do? God does change me but if you according to you its all at once then my nature to do that is gone. yet it popped up. wait you will tell me either that I didn't repent, as if you were there. which you cant because you weren't.

yet when I repented, I know and I didn't care to do that. so which prayer was real? both or the first only or the second?

free will? many osasers are against limited free will or the doctrine of calvin and yet teach that if I choose sin and don't want to go heaven, somehow god will force me to go.

 

[Brother Mike]

No one is able to disown Jesus. That would make that person larger and stronger than God. Jesus closed the door on that argument in John 19:28-29.

The Bible describes the relationship between one who has believed and God as Father and child. Just as a human child or parent CANNOT undo the birth so as to no longer be the parent or child, so also God does not undo the birth. Otherwise, we would have clear verses to that point. But we don't.

*[[Rom 5:17]] kjva* For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 8:28 kjva And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Joh 5:22-24 kjva 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom 5:18 kjva Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The only source of truth is scripture. Jesus forordainded before the foundation of the world (for known before hand) was all things made for, and because of the son. There is nothing made not under him, and he died for all effected by one man's sin, that the father saved all men through his son that many who believed should be justified by free grace through faith in the word and Faith created by the word preached.

Predestination is a bad doctrine and I wish it was not added to OSAS. For by grace came to all, not by our own works. The grace is there, free with nothing under man's own efforts that can change it. Adams sin effected every single man, and grace to everyone that will believe.

Who can believe and be saved? As it is written even Israel who have promise through election of God's own oath can only be grafted in again if they believe. How much more those who are not elected in through the oath?

Rom 11:18-24 kjva 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The promise is to all men. God has not made one person without a good plan for them. Many are called, few are chosen.

 

[Brother Mike]

Also, Jeremiah was told not to petition his people. God had determined that they will in fact now be exiled. It was too late to change that. But we know that a remnant did come back from that exile.

There are lots of places in scripture where man messes up God's soverighen plan. Lots of places where God changes his mind. It's why I am against foreknowledge and predestination doctrines. They are made up doctrines, by confused folk. The even fight over predestination V.S foreknowledge.

It's a problem in christmatic churches, from all those folks who have to hear God on every matter instead of believing what the word said. That would be foreknowledge, that if God showed them, then that is what happens, despite scripture and the enemy can sound a lot like God.

Peter said we heard God, have our calling, seen miracles but we have a more sure word of prophecy. It's up to man to run his own race. And fill that call. Paul warned to lay aside every weight and sin that easily hinders the race before us. If we don't do that, then God's plan is not accomplished.

 

[Chopper]

No one is able to disown Jesus. That would make that person larger and stronger than God. Jesus closed the door on that argument in John 19:28-29.

The Bible describes the relationship between one who has believed and God as Father and child. Just as a human child or parent CANNOT undo the birth so as to no longer be the parent or child, so also God does not undo the birth. Otherwise, we would have clear verses to that point. But we don't.

Hebrews has plenty of verses that imply that some Christians have to maintain their faith, otherwise IMO they are lost. One is Hebrews 6:1-8. If as you say that no one can disown Jesus, the words "have fallen away" would not have been there. I would suggest that you read Hebrews and pay attention to the little word "if".

 

[Chopper]

Paul was clear about who the "elect" are, in spite of how Calvinists have spun it. Eph 1:4 says that God chose "us" to be holy and blameless. Then he defined who the "us" are in 1:19; believers.

All who have believed are elect. The Calvinists' spin that election fundamentally means that God chooses who will believe is unsupported in Scripture.

Ok, you are more than welcome to your interpretation. It's not mine!

 

[Brother Mike]

Hebrews has plenty of verses that imply that some Christians have to maintain their faith, otherwise IMO they are lost. One is Hebrews 6:1-8. If as you say that no one can disown Jesus, the words "have fallen away" would not have been there. I would suggest that you read Hebrews and pay attention to the little word "if".

It comes down to the age old question. Did God foreknow Adam would sin? Or did God predestined Adam to sin so man needs a savior?

The sad thing is that it's a very simple question to answer. It takes religion to get confused.

If Adam had a choice and free will to walk away from God, then under the 2nd Adam it is also possible to walk away by ones own free will, and full knowledge of what they are giving up.

Did God just know Adam would sin? By Adams own free will?
Did God plan Adam to sin with no choice?

Both groups, hold onto their concepts of God's sovereignty through God causing, or God knowing all things. Man's idea of what God should be.

Man is ignorant that foreknowledge always reverts back to predestination. Knowing something ahead of time, but going through with it, knowing the outcome is causing it to happen.

Saying I have great foreknowledge that shooting you until dead, will kill you, then proving it out that my great foreknowledge is correct is called premeditated murder. In the court system man is not confused. You have to go to church to get confused.

God knowing Adam would bring death, rape, murder, and all unimaginable evil and grief to people, yet places Adam in the garden anyway under the conditions present makes it God's fault for all evil under the curse committed.

Scripture does not blame God though. By one man's sin, death reigned, and effected even those who had not sinned under Adams transgression. Not God's plan, or God's fault.

If God saying to Adam be blessed and multiply, but knew or planed Adam to blow it, makes him a liar, saying things he knew not to be true.

God said I give you the promise land....his plan, his will.

Num 14:34 kjva After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

 

[Deborah13]

"...who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons..." (Romans 9:4 NASB)

And yet all except for the remnant are lost, not irreversibly made sons of God who will be saved on the Day of Wrath as you claim a son of God must be. But you are sure 'once a son always a son' is truth.

My understanding....
Yes, to them belongs the adoption of sons. But how so? Because of the fathers.

Rom 9:6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who are of Israel are these Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children, but--`in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
Rom 9:8 that is, the children of the flesh--these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;

Rom 9:12 `The greater shall serve the less;'
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'

Jacob, being the covenant of grace and faith/the seed. Esau, the covenant of works/the flesh.
We see the same as being Sarah and Hagar.
The promise to Abraham and his ONE Seed and this seed is Jesus the Christ.

So who is Israel, all those from both before the cross and after the cross who are found to be righteous by grace through faith, in the Redeemer.
All these are Israel, the Israel of God. As the scripture says, All Israel shall be saved.

 

[Deborah13]

It comes down to the age old question. Did God foreknow Adam would sin? Or did God predestined Adam to sin so man needs a savior?

The sad thing is that it's a very simple question to answer. It takes religion to get confused.

If Adam had a choice and free will to walk away from God, then under the 2nd Adam it is also possible to walk away by ones own free will, and full knowledge of what they are giving up.

Well I don't see that it is quite the same.
Adam didn't make a choice to walk with God and then give up that choice he had made. Big difference, I think.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My understanding....
Yes, to them belongs the adoption of sons. But how so? Because of the fathers.

Rom 9:6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who are of Israel are these Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children, but--`in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
Rom 9:8 that is, the children of the flesh--these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;

Rom 9:12 `The greater shall serve the less;'
Rom 9:13 according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'

Jacob, being the covenant of grace and faith/the seed. Esau, the covenant of works/the flesh.
We see the same as being Sarah and Hagar.
The promise to Abraham and his ONE Seed and this seed is Jesus the Christ.

So who is Israel, all those from both before the cross and after the cross who are found to be righteous by grace through faith, in the Redeemer.
All these are Israel, the Israel of God. As the scripture says, All Israel shall be saved.

Can you see that it is impossible to make this particular passage, Romans 11:28-29 NASB mean that once you are saved you can never be unsaved? That's not even what Paul is addressing.

He's saying because of God's promise to the Patriarchs it is impossible for God to revoke his gifts and calling to Abraham's descendants. The promise will one day be fulfilled by children of Abraham who will also be true children of Abraham according to the promise, not just according to natural descent. It has nothing to do with a person once being saved and being unable to not be saved anymore. As I pointed out, the revoking of the gift of forgiveness in the kingdom (regardless of what one may argue that signifies) shows us that gifts are not categorically and without exception not able to be revoked simply because they are gifts. And because this is true, it is impossible that is what Paul means in the passage.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well I don't see that it is quite the same.
Adam didn't make a choice to walk with God and then give up that choice he had made. Big difference, I think.

Rom 6:16 kjv Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Despite what Adam may have known or not known. Adam did make a choice to serve Satan, not God by a willful act against what God said. God said the day you eat. The day you die. Adam chose that.

1Ti 2:14 kjva And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam knew fully well what he was doing, and what the consequences of his actions were going to be.