Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[FreeGrace]

If 'nothing' includes even the decision to not trust in Christ anymore then the Church has fallen a long, long way downward.

You just don't understand God's grace for His children. Or like it, maybe.

You still haven't provided any verse that directly states that one's salvation is ever in danger of being lost/revoked/returned/forfeited/etc. There is no reason to believe your view, given that fact.

There is every reason to believe that one's salvation is secure regardless of the future (per Rom 8:38) because of Rom 11:29.

You still haven't provided any proof that 11:29 refers to Jews only. In fact, I showed that Paul opened his epistle by describing his audience of believers as called, and went on to state that eternal life is a gift.

Therefore, 11:29 does refer back to 1:6,7 and 6:23. For context.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You seem to be cankering for an argument.
You won't get one here.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not looking for an argument. I'm past that. When you chimed in yesterday I thought to myself, "I know Rollo beleives in OSAS, but why isn't he standing up against this ridiculous argument that former believers who are now unbelievers will be saved through the coming judgment?"

So to know whether you were just choosing not to defend against such ridiculous doctrine or actually agreed with it I asked you where you're at about it. I also decided that if you agree with it then I'm hitting the road. You see, I can eventually tell who is a L.P. and who is merely toeing the line for his particular denominational teachings because they've never been exposed to any teachings outside of their own. I really don't care about the L.P.'s in this forum (I don't think you're one). I only use their contributions as a launching pad for useful discussion for others who can learn from it. But I care what the latter group is thinking and I am gauging that by what you say.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You just don't understand God's grace for His children. Or like it, maybe.

You still haven't provided any verse that directly states that one's salvation is ever in danger of being lost/revoked/returned/forfeited/etc. There is no reason to believe your view, given that fact.

There is every reason to believe that one's salvation is secure regardless of the future (per Rom 8:38) because of Rom 11:29.

You still haven't provided any proof that 11:29 refers to Jews only. In fact, I showed that Paul opened his epistle by describing his audience of believers as called, and went on to state that eternal life is a gift.

Therefore, 11:29 does refer back to 1:6,7 and 6:23. For context.

Remember what I said? I said if/when I show you Israel's calling and gifting you'd find a way to make it go away. I have nothing else to say to someone who can't acknowledge the plain words of scripture I provided to them that they asked for. You will just continue to insist they 'don't really mean what they say'. There is no point in continuing to talk to someone who will do that with everything you say to them that destroys their argument. I only do that for a while for the sake of others.

 

[Brother Mike]

Which sin does not send a person to hell?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

This scripture pertains to getting in trouble with the law.

If you sin (one sin mentioned below this scripture) there is only looking forward to the wrath of God after. No recovery options available as the person commuting this sin most likely will not want to repent. Heb 10:-

Every sin we commit is willful sin. There is no such thing as committing sin that is not willful. Where there is no law (conscience) about something in our heart, sin is not imputed. This is why we are told that anything that is not Faith is sin. Those to know to do good but do not, is sin.

You know if your in Faith to do something or not, like questioning anything is not Faith at all. You know to do good, when the time comes but don't do good is sin.

What if I do something that I did not know was wrong?

We have an advocate with the father always making intercession for us, and it's written to be perfect minded, anything not perfect minded, God is faithful and reveal this to you.

Violation of light given, violation of conscience, knowing to do good but choosing not to do good is sin. No man should judge another's conscience, and no man has the same things revealed to them as someone else does.

 

[FreeGrace]

Don't misunderstand. I'm not looking for an argument. I'm past that. When you chimed in yesterday I thought to myself, "I know Rollo beleives in OSAS, but why isn't he standing up against this ridiculous argument that former believers who are now unbelievers will be saved through the coming judgment?"

The error is in denying that once a believer, one HAS eternal life, which cannot be revoked, and IS a child of God, which cannot be undone. Or else there would be verses to that effect. None of which you have provided.

You see, I can eventually tell who is a L.P. and who is merely toeing the line for his particular denominational teachings because they've never been exposed to any teachings outside of their own.

A rather naive view. I'm not denominational in any way, shape, or form. Denominations have nothing to do with eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Remember what I said? I said if/when I show you Israel's calling and gifting you'd find a way to make it go away.

I'm still waiting for the verses that indicate that Israel has been given gifts, or that Israel has been called. All you provided was 2 verses, each one about a specific person given a gift, or was called. Nothing about Israel as a nation, which Paul was referring to in Rom 11.

I have nothing else to say to someone who can't acknowledge the plain words of scripture I provided to them that they asked for.

Is it difficult to look into a mirror?? Rom 1:6,7, 6:23, and 11:29 are clear as can be. God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, but you are the one who can't acknowledge these very plain words of Scripture.

You will just continue to insist they 'don't really mean what they say'.

I've never said that verses "don't really mean what they say". So please quit making such a wild and reckless charge. I've pointed out what the verses SAY and MEAN, by use of context, something you haven't done yet.

 

[Chopper]

If 'nothing' includes even the decision to not trust in Christ anymore then the Church has fallen a long, long way downward.

Jethro my friend, I have witnessed good solid believers who, in a time of great grief and loss of health, say things about or too God that they really don't mean. Some who have prayed for healing over and over for themselves of a mate, get so disappointed and mad at God that they say, think and act like they just want to walk away from Jesus. When my Wife of 33 years died of cancer, that night I looked out of my bedroom window, looked up at the dark sky and said to God, "what the hell are you doing." I was very upset and angry that He did not heal my Partner in the ministry. I didn't give up on Jesus but came close.

I call the Holy Spirit, "the hound of heaven" Just look at the Disciples, Peter did what you are talking about but the Holy Spirit didn't let him get away. Don't under estimate the power of God thru His Spirit. There is no human who can determine how and to what extent what He can do. Lets not limit the power of God to keep those who have committed their lives to His Son thru the efforts and drawing to Jesus for salvation, and to think that man can undo what God has done, please!

 

[Brother Mike]

Jethro my friend, I have witnessed good solid believers who, in a time of great grief and loss of health, say things about or too God that they really don't mean. Some who have prayed for healing over and over for themselves of a mate, get so disappointed and mad at God that they say, think and act like they just want to walk away from Jesus. When my Wife of 33 years died of cancer, that night I looked out of my bedroom window, looked up at the dark sky and said to God, "what the hell are you doing." I was very upset and angry that He did not heal my Partner in the ministry. I didn't give up on Jesus but came close.

I call the Holy Spirit, "the hound of heaven" Just look at the Disciples, Peter did what you are talking about but the Holy Spirit didn't let him get away. Don't under estimate the power of God thru His Spirit. There is no human who can determine how and to what extent what He can do. Lets not limit the power of God to keep those who have committed their lives to His Son thru the efforts and drawing to Jesus for salvation, and to think that man can undo what God has done, please!

I have not seen one time God fail anyone who believed him. We can't be moved by past tragedies, and there is no such thing as a solid believer who gets disappointed at God.

Faith, already knows the outcome. Unbelief gets disappointed from the outcome.

We prayed over and must not have been God's will to help. Jesus said when you pray believe you receive then you have the answer. Mark 11:24 the only reason someone wants to pray over and over is because it could be God was not paying attention the first time. Oh my....

It is written, if we ask anything according to his will, then we have confidence that he heard us, and if we know he heard us we have the petitions desired of him. If we need healed, we best get his will settled on it.

We don't go against the word and expect results. Even the best ministers in the land, given direct power by the Lord of Lord's himself, Jesus our king, to cast out DEVILS could not cast out the devil from the boy who threw himself in the fire. The best in the earth had failed.
They start some doctrine that God does not always come through? Write a book that God sometimes does not want to heal and we just don't understand his mysterious ways?,

No, they ask why could we not cast him out. They had enough sense to know they were the issue. Jesus said because of your unbelief.

Latter on though, we see Peter at gate beautiful grab a man's hand saying rise and walk in the name of Jesus, nothing doubting. The same Peter that denied knowing the Lord, out of fear, goes to sleep in a prison knowing they were chopping his head off the next morning. Not a care in the world.

We fall short. It's never God not wanting to help. We never receive from God according to his ability, but what we can believe. Just like the disciples though, we can take responsibility for our failures and get help to be stronger, a force on earth the devil even dreads us waking up in the morning.

I have been there, my own brother in the Lord waiting on the ambulance claiming a heart attack. The other strong brothers praying for him, to no avail in our prison wing, so they come wake me up. Nothing I could do, but I had learned some things. I went to the Lord, I said Lord, my brother dies possibly if I can't get him in agreement with me and you about his healing. I know it's not your will that he thinks he is dying and waiting on the ambulance.

Getting wisdom on something fixes things instead of just praying over and over about something. Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom and understanding. I go off then praying in tongues, and the stupid devil attacks me twice. Still have the scar on my nose, from the first attempt. There will always be resistance, and physical evidence from the devil that God is not going to help. Persecution for the word sake. The Lord then spoke to me, blood dripping down my face.. "go to your brother, hold his hand and have him just thank me for what I have done in his life"

Ummm, did not seem much like a solution, at the time I was clueless about the power of praise. So I did, and the power of God ran through both of us, healed instantly. I still made him go with the ambulance to get checked out.

It's always us that falls short. Never God, and never a reason to get upset at God because he is our help.

You can always go back to someone that was not healed and the Lord will bring to your remembrance where it was their statements of unbelief as to why. As I told my wife, who was having serious medical issues and schedule surgery in hopes to save her. You know enough now that God never fails, you best get in Faith, your responsible for what you know. Praise God she did, she even canceled the surgery and told the devil enough!!

 

[Chopper]

Well Brother Mike, for forty years as a pastor, I have seen and been in situations with solid believers that you wouldn't understand because you haven't been in the situations that I have. I did enjoy your two testimonies of healing, I too have had a message to my heart to go and pray for healing of quite a few sick people and they all were healed the way the message said. Praise the Lord for His goodness, grace, and power.

 

[Ricko]

... this ridiculous argument that former believers who are now unbelievers will be saved ....

No believer can become an unbeliever. It may appear this way to our human eyes, but God searches our heart. Only He knows our true condition. That person you speak of wasn't saved in the first place or is in a temporary backslid-in state.

 

[jasonc]

No believer can become an unbeliever. It may appear this way to our human eyes, but God searches our heart. Only He knows our true condition. That person you speak of wasn't saved in the first place or is in a temporary backslid-in state.

i disagree, without going into an osas debate. i was saved and went into the sin of homosexuality and knew that it was wrong. had i not repented and i died i doubt that i would be in heaven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No believer can become an unbeliever. It may appear this way to our human eyes, but God searches our heart. Only He knows our true condition. That person you speak of wasn't saved in the first place or is in a temporary backslid-in state.

Ah yes, the famous 'they weren't really believers to begin with' argument. Do you realize how many scriptures you have to say 'it doesn't really mean what it's saying' in order to defend OSAS? I call them the 'not really' doctrines of the church.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well Brother Mike, for forty years as a pastor, I have seen and been in situations with solid believers that you wouldn't understand because you haven't been in the situations that I have. I did enjoy your two testimonies of healing, I too have had a message to my heart to go and pray for healing of quite a few sick people and they all were healed the way the message said. Praise the Lord for His goodness, grace, and power.

Brother Chopper, God bless 40 years of serving the Lord. There have been folks delivered out of some hopeless situations, that I am thankful I don't have a personal testimony to give. I have learned though it's not about the situation. How big the giants were did not keep Israel out of the promise land. Israel kept Israel out of the promise land.

I think you will find that when in a impossible situation full of faith, and peace, that it really does not seem all that bad. To someone hearing the story it may sound horrible, but as you said, they were not there, you were.

I am convinced that if we continue to grow and learn more about faith and spiritual laws God has set fourth, then it's impossible for any failure. I see where others have failed, but they said and agreed with wrong things, that I avoided.

Just had not long ago a Rehema Pastor die of sickness, and He taught healing, was raised under Kenneth Hagin. I can promise not the will of God, or God's fault. Not changing something the Lord has asked you to change, gives the enemy a place. That is all the Lord would tell me about it.

I got fired from my job Chopper. A good trucking Job. My fault, because at the place in training for truck driving there was a place on the application where they asked again if you ever had a felony. Their website as long as the felony is older than 10 years all good. I knew in my spirit to be honest, but I over ride what I knew and put NO. I reasoned out that if their website says not a issue then why put down a 18 year old felony? Fired for lying on the application 4 months latter.

My fault.


It's not about the situations, it's about what we believe, as I tell my grown children, my faith won't cover you. I can agree with you, but you have to develop your own relationship with the Lord. As it's written, the child shall leave mother and father and cleave to their own wife. It's important to teach little ones early the power and goodness of God, they will need it. I learned to drink beer when I was little, thank God for his mercy and not letting me fall to the side like many others.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

No believer can become an unbeliever. It may appear this way to our human eyes, but God searches our heart. Only He knows our true condition. That person you speak of wasn't saved in the first place or is in a temporary backslid-in state.

Well thats the kicker. It's like Evolution, where the amount of time, anything can be proven, just add more time.

If a person appears saved, lives for God then decides they don't want God, it's easy to say they never knew God to begin with. That means man does not have free will, and that's a lie.

On the other hand though..............................................

i disagree, without going into an osas debate. i was saved and went into the sin of homosexuality and knew that it was wrong. had i not repented and i died i doubt that i would be in heaven.

I question this........ Lets say I die because I got drunk one night and was shot robbing a gas station. Does it really matter how long you turn away from doing right? That make us any less a child of God?

What was your revelation at the time? Just knowing something is wrong, does not mean knowing it's really wrong and death producing. You did not die a Homosexual and end up in Hell, so you can't prove you stopped being a child of God, then became a child of God again. We just don't stop being children of the most high. The reason we needed Jesus, a advocate in the first place is because we fall way short.

It's the reason we get saved, just because we get saved does not mean we don't need his mercy, and help. It does not mean we don't take a 10 year break from Lord, and decided we don't want saved anymore.

So I question if you would end up in hell, I don't think so. Being a homosexual does not mean you were done being God's child. In fact you would not have even repented, knowing you were in the wrong had you not be God's child.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This one sin, there is no more sacrifice for it. Jesus died but once for us, and He is not going to the cross a second time. What sin is this?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Someone who does not want anything else to do with the Lord Jesus again. It's a willful act of forever wanting to walk away from a person, not a religion. It's a act done with full knowledge of the consequences, and sound mind. A act committed by one that has seen the goodness of the Lord, and is mature enough to commit it.

Getting wrapped up in Homosexuality is dumb, but it's not saying I never want anything to do with the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro my friend, I have witnessed good solid believers who, in a time of great grief and loss of health, say things about or too God that they really don't mean. Some who have prayed for healing over and over for themselves of a mate, get so disappointed and mad at God that they say, think and act like they just want to walk away from Jesus. When my Wife of 33 years died of cancer, that night I looked out of my bedroom window, looked up at the dark sky and said to God, "what the hell are you doing." I was very upset and angry that He did not heal my Partner in the ministry. I didn't give up on Jesus but came close.

I call the Holy Spirit, "the hound of heaven" Just look at the Disciples, Peter did what you are talking about but the Holy Spirit didn't let him get away. Don't under estimate the power of God thru His Spirit. There is no human who can determine how and to what extent what He can do. Lets not limit the power of God to keep those who have committed their lives to His Son thru the efforts and drawing to Jesus for salvation, and to think that man can undo what God has done, please!

Basically, your argument is that God will keep you believing. I can respect that argument. I don't agree with it anymore because of Hebrews 10:29 NASB, but at least it's worthy of examination. But the argument being put forth here is that you can become an unbeliever and you will still be saved at the Judgment. Do you agree that an unbeliever can pass through the judgment? If no, then are you going to engage this ridiculous doctrine that says you can, or not? And are you willing to engage this ridiculous argument that Israel is neither called nor gifted from God?

 

[jasonc]

Well thats the kicker. It's like Evolution, where the amount of time, anything can be proven, just add more time.

If a person appears saved, lives for God then decides they don't want God, it's easy to say they never knew God to begin with. That means man does not have free will, and that's a lie.

On the other hand though..............................................



I question this........ Lets say I die because I got drunk one night and was shot robbing a gas station. Does it really matter how long you turn away from doing right? That make us any less a child of God?

What was your revelation at the time? Just knowing something is wrong, does not mean knowing it's really wrong and death producing. You did not die a Homosexual and end up in Hell, so you can't prove you stopped being a child of God, then became a child of God again. We just don't stop being children of the most high. The reason we needed Jesus, a advocate in the first place is because we fall way short.

It's the reason we get saved, just because we get saved does not mean we don't need his mercy, and help. It does not mean we don't take a 10 year break from Lord, and decided we don't want saved anymore.

So I question if you would end up in hell, I don't think so. Being a homosexual does not mean you were done being God's child. In fact you would not have even repented, knowing you were in the wrong had you not be God's child.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This one sin, there is no more sacrifice for it. Jesus died but once for us, and He is not going to the cross a second time. What sin is this?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Someone who does not want anything else to do with the Lord Jesus again. It's a willful act of forever wanting to walk away from a person, not a religion. It's a act done with full knowledge of the consequences, and sound mind. A act committed by one that has seen the goodness of the Lord, and is mature enough to commit it.

Getting wrapped up in Homosexuality is dumb, but it's not saying I never want anything to do with the Holy Spirit, and the Lord Jesus.

uhm i was thinking that in my heart, anger and hate that i couldn't do that was forming. you cant be that and saved they will clash, one will win, you must choice death or life. trust me i know what i was thinking when i had that pull. i disagree. one cant be something so anti-thetical to god and stay his for long.

 

[Brother Mike]

uhm i was thinking that in my heart, anger and hate that i couldn't do that was forming. you cant be that and saved they will clash, one will win, you must choice death or life. trust me i know what i was thinking when i had that pull. i disagree. one cant be something so anti-thetical to god and stay his for long.

Well, good thing we did not find out. In a house there are many vessels. Some to honor and some to dishonor. All still in the same house though. Paul said if your a vessel of dishonor, then purge yourself so that you will be fit for the masters use. He did not say that your going to roast and not make it to heaven.

If a man works be tried and they get burnt up, the man is still saved, but by fire.

However, Paul turned one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved.......... (Repent before death) and God said this son of mine was lost, but now He is found.

I understand your point, since you came back, it's hard to speculate, and that is what I was saying. Why the OSAS doctrine is crazy when it comes to removing mans ability to make choices, bad or good.

blessings.

 

[jasonc]

Well, good thing we did not find out. In a house there are many vessels. Some to honor and some to dishonor. All still in the same house though. Paul said if your a vessel of dishonor, then purge yourself so that you will be fit for the masters use. He did not say that your going to roast and not make it to heaven.

If a man works be tried and they get burnt up, the man is still saved, but by fire.

However, Paul turned one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved.......... (Repent before death) and God said this son of mine was lost, but now He is found.

I understand your point, since you came back, it's hard to speculate, and that is what I was saying. Why the OSAS doctrine is crazy when it comes to removing mans ability to make choices, bad or good.

blessings.

oh i know where i was headed. GOD told me until i repent don't take communion.

 

[Chopper]

Basically, your argument is that God will keep you believing. I can respect that argument. I don't agree with it anymore because of Hebrews 10:29 NASB, but at least it's worthy of examination. But the argument being put forth here is that you can become an unbeliever and you will still be saved at the Judgment. Do you agree that an unbeliever can pass through the judgment? If no, then are you going to engage this ridiculous doctrine that says you can, or not? And are you willing to engage this ridiculous argument that Israel is neither called nor gifted from God?

Oh my Jethro. If a person is able to disown Jesus, he will go to hell! He probably was not a real believer in the first place, but my answer is what you were looking for.

 

[Ricko]

i disagree, without going into an osas debate. i was saved and went into the sin of homosexuality and knew that it was wrong. had i not repented and i died i doubt that i would be in heaven.

You'd have made it to heaven. Once a son, always a son. The prodigal son left The Fathers house to live it up, realized he wasn't where he belonged and came home. So did you.