What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

Jethro Bodine said:
19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel..." (Numbers 8:19 NASB)

"1 When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. " (Hosea 11:1 NASB)

Now watch as OSAS (address doctrine, not persons) makes these 'go away'. Or, watch as the scope of 'all inclusive' gifts is narrowed down to meaning only the gentiles and not the Israelites. But, brothers and sisters, let's not forget the passage in question here:

25 ...a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God** are irrevocable.
(Romans 11:25-29 NASB)

The OSAS claims being made in this thread are that the context of this passage is not the Israelites, and that Israel did not receive gifts or calling. As we plainly see both claims are so obviously erroneous.


**See Romans 9:3-5 NASB
Click to expand...
Jethro,
This passage has nothing to do with my Eternal salvation and have never heard any claim this verse as relevant. And, actually my argument has always been, wave back at me when I wave as we are raptured. All positions can be justified by ignoring some of the scripture. My primary verse on OSAS is where Jesus explains that we are given to Him by the father and trhat none in His hand can be lost.
 
th1b.taylor said:
My primary verse on OSAS is where Jesus explains that we are given to Him by the father and trhat none in His hand can be lost.
Click to expand...
Yes, Jesus will not lose a single soul out of negligence, or dereliction of duty. We apply the surety and security of that promise through our faith. But if we do not continue in that faith the promise of his sure ministry is no longer ours to have confidence in.

At the very least OSAS should be arguing that once you believe you can never stop believing, but as it is some sects of OSAS argue that you can even stop believing and still have the benefit of that which believing secures for a person. The fear being that to suggest you have to 'do' something to be saved (in this case, 'keep believing') is to make the gospel a gospel of works. How ridiculous. No where did Paul include believing in the works that can not justify. In fact, that is the very thing we must do to be justified. That is what Abraham did.

18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:18-22 NASB)

We see here that it is the enduring faith in what God is surely able to perform that was credited to him as righteousness, not the wavering, even failing faith that some sects of OSAS claim is credited to a person as righteousness.
 
Last edited:
Jethro Bodine said:
19 "I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the sons of Israel..." (Numbers 8:19 NASB)
Click to expand...

Was this gift ever revoked? No.

"1 When Israel was a youth I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. " (Hosea 11:1 NASB)
Click to expand...

We're talking about gifts, not love.

Now watch as OSAS (address doctrine, not persons) makes these 'go away'.
Click to expand...
No one is trying to make anything go away, except the false doctrine that salvation may "go away".

Or, watch as the scope of 'all inclusive' gifts is narrowed down to meaning only the gentiles and not the Israelites. But, brothers and sisters, let's not forget the passage in question here:
Click to expand...
25 ...a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God** are irrevocable.
(Romans 11:25-29 NASB)
Click to expand...

Still not seeing any reference to gifts to Israel here. Do you have any verses about gifts to Israel, which would refer directly to 11:29?

The OSAS claims being made in this thread are that the context of this passage is not the Israelites, and that Israel did not receive gifts or calling. As we plainly see both claims are so obviously erroneous.
Click to expand...
The claim is made because there is NO evidence in Romans that Israel received gifts or a calling. And as I have already provided, Paul opened his letter by describing his mostly Gentile audience as "called" (1:6,7) and in 6:23 describes eternal life as a gift. But the non-OSAS types try to make these verses "go away" because they directly refute their view.

**See Romans 9:3-5 NASB
Click to expand...
I've seen it. What do you see there? I don't see "gifts". Where do you see any gifts?

The issue regarding 11:29 is centered around 2 specific words; calling and gifts. And Paul has previously in his epistle mentioned both of them, so the context for gifts and calling is what he has already noted. Not a parable from a different book and context.

But you want it all to just go away. Because it refutes your view directly.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
For the third time now...

We don't have to even visit the issue of whether or not Matthew 18:23-35 is a salvation passage. The point is, it directly refutes the OSAS claim that an unmerited free gift can not be revoked.
Click to expand...
If that were true, then the Bible would be internally contradictory. I reject that notion completely.

But OSAS claims that the gifts that can not be revoked in Romans 11:29 are all inclusive, meaning any and all gifts.
Click to expand...
Please be honest and accurate when making claims. First, the BIBLE claims that God's gifts and callings are irrevocable, so please cite the correct SOURCE of who doesn't revoke gifts and calling. Second, I have specifically pointed out that both "gifts" and "callings" have been previously mentioned by Paul in his letter. So the context for 11:29 is found WITHIN his letter. I never claimed that 11:29 was "all inclusive, meaning any and all gifts", as you falsely claim.

11:29 is specific to the contents of his letter. And since he mentioned gifts and callings previous to 11:29, the context for 11:29 is what he has already mentioned. And you cannot disprove that fact.

Romans 11:29 NASB is not an all inclusive statement that says salvation can not be revoked after it is received because salvation is a gift, and the passage says gifts can not be revoked.
Click to expand...
That is EXACTLY the meaning, as Paul previously mentioned both gifts and calling in his letter, so those ARE the context for 11:29, which you wish would just go away.

It's impossible, because of other scripture where we see a gift being revoked, for it to mean that.
Click to expand...
"Other Scripture" is irrelevant here, because we HAVE context for 11:29 WITHIN the letter itself. So trying to drag other non-related texts to "interpret" 11:29 is unscholarly, to say the least.

Simply seeing the context of the passage shows us that what can not be revoked is Israel's destiny to one day be exactly what God promised Abraham it would be. THAT is what is irrevocable.
Click to expand...
Since you haven't demonstrated that Israel has been called, your "interpretation" is unscriptural.

What we do know is that Paul's audience were "called", and that the eternal life they had was a "gift". So 11:29 is understood from THAT context.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, Jesus will not lose a single soul out of negligence, or dereliction of duty.
Click to expand...
Why do you add to Scripture? Jesus never added that to His words in John 10:28-29. Revelation contains some serious warnings of those who try to either add to Scripture or take away from Scripture.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, Jesus will not lose a single soul out of negligence, or dereliction of duty. We apply the surety and security of that promise through our faith. But if we do not continue in that faith the promise of his sure ministry is no longer ours to have confidence in.

At the very least OSAS should be arguing that once you believe you can never stop believing, but as it is some sects of OSAS argue that you can even stop believing and still have the benefit of that which believing secures for a person. The fear being that to suggest you have to 'do' something to be saved (in this case, 'keep believing') is to make the gospel a gospel of works. How ridiculous. No where did Paul include believing in the works that can not justify. In fact, that is the very thing we must do to be justified. That is what Abraham did.

18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Romans 4:18-22 NASB)

We see here that it is the enduring faith in what God is surely able to perform that was credited to him as righteousness, not the wavering, even failing faith that some sects of OSAS claim is credited to a person as righteousness.
Click to expand...
I was not arguing, just a statement. I, also, never said it depends on my faith nor shall I ever. I will say that he or she that appears to loose their faith needs examination, only by humans, Jesus already knows, was this person ever saved? Were they, maybe, just angry with God? I've been there.
 
FreeGrace said:
Why do you add to Scripture? Jesus never added that to His words in John 10:28-29. Revelation contains some serious warnings of those who try to either add to Scripture or take away from Scripture.
Click to expand...
I forget just where to find the middle instance but that warning is expressed three times in scripture, once in Revelation, once in Deuteronomy and as I said I have forgotten where the third was.

There is an accepted principal driven by logic in the scriptures that matters here. If God says something we should listen. If God says it twice, special attention needs to be paid to this. If God says it three times, do you really want to tempt God?
 
th1b.taylor said:
I forget just where to find the middle instance but that warning is expressed three times in scripture, once in Revelation, once in Deuteronomy and as I said I have forgotten where the third was.

There is an accepted principal driven by logic in the scriptures that matters here. If God says something we should listen. If God says it twice, special attention needs to be paid to this. If God says it three times, do you really want to tempt God?
Click to expand...
It's actually twice in Deuteronomy, 4:2 and 12:32.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Rollo, if you believe that Freegrace is right and that you can change your mind about Christ after you have believed and still be saved I will have the mods close my account and I will be on my merry way. Dead serious.
Click to expand...
I'll never want to see you go away, so I'll never do that.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
You never have chosen to understand my point of view, though I have stated it many times in many threads.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure I have understood your position. Don't confuse that with me not agreeing with it.

I just want to know your official answer so there is no misunderstanding: Does a believer lose his salvation if he later rejects Christ? If you want to go on record that it's impossible for a believer to stop believing, that's quite different. You should make it clear to me which position you hold.
 
To clarify myself, I don't believe a person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and then one day say, "I don't want you anymore, leave me".
And if a person would say that, I don't believe the Holy Spirit would leave, for if God has called us, he will make sure he doesn't lose us.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Then you obviously believe the kingdom of God will have unbelievers in it.
Click to expand...
The error in your view is calling a child of God who rebels as an unbeliever. Since they have already believed at one point, and there is NO SCRIPTURE that indicates that a child of God is "revocable", they are always a child of God, rebellious or not.

God's grace is far greater than what you may claim as grace. God calls believers, and the epistles prove that believers are "called". And we know what God doesn't do for those He has called. He doesn't revoke the calling. Nor the gifts. That includes eternal life.

And you still haven't proven otherwise.
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
To clarify myself, I don't believe a person can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and then one day say, "I don't want you anymore, leave me".
And if a person would say that, I don't believe the Holy Spirit would leave, for if God has called us, he will make sure he doesn't lose us.
Click to expand...

I stand beside Rollo on his position. Jethro, there is enough Scripture that supports the theology of the "elect" of God. When a person has believed on Jesus the Christ, and Jesus has committed Himself to that person, and Jesus has sent His Spirit inside that person, what ever that person says cannot remove what Jesus has done, NOTHING!
 
Chopper said:
I stand beside Rollo on his position. Jethro, there is enough Scripture that supports the theology of the "elect" of God. When a person has believed on Jesus the Christ, and Jesus has committed Himself to that person, and Jesus has sent His Spirit inside that person, what ever that person says cannot remove what Jesus has done, NOTHING!
Click to expand...
If 'nothing' includes even the decision to not trust in Christ anymore then the Church has fallen a long, long way downward.
 
Chopper said:
I stand beside Rollo on his position. Jethro, there is enough Scripture that supports the theology of the "elect" of God. When a person has believed on Jesus the Christ, and Jesus has committed Himself to that person, and Jesus has sent His Spirit inside that person, what ever that person says cannot remove what Jesus has done, NOTHING!
Click to expand...
:thumbsup
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top