[_ Old Earth _] Is Space Expanding?

[dad]

Do you really understand the implications of speeding light up?

You misunderstand, I don't say our light sped up, it was a different light, in a different universe state. Our light is what we were left with here, that can exist in this temporary state.

I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that there is no wavelength shift with respect to the motion of the source?

No, I am saying that things far away happened a long time ago.

If that is what you are saying, just walk out side and listen to a car pass. You will certainly here the sound change pitch due to the Doppler effect. This is the same basic principle in red shift. Red shifting being the same effect on light waves as the pitch getting lower as the car passes and starts to move away from you.

You are talking about how it now works in this temporary state universe, that is not an issue. The question is, in the universe of long long ago, when the light from distant stars was starting to make it's way to earth, what THEN cause a shifting in the light? Not what causes it now.

Or are you saying that the stars just aren't moving away anymore? Of course that can not be proven false they could have decided to start doing lazy 8s just yesterday for just that one day, and be doing loop-to-loops tomorrow. We just can't say until the light from yesterday and tomorrow reaches us. Logical reasoning from current evidence says that is unlikely (well, thats really a bit of an understatement )

Well, if there is some movement, that we know by other means than redshifting, we could look at that. I think it should be obvious, that, if there really was a totally different universe state back then, a little red shift effect on light during the changeover is no big deal.
And, if you say there was no different universe, then you are left with proving it!

 

[dad]

And I didn't mention quantum physics, you did... and you don't know what you're talking about! Dad, stop before you hurt my brain! You really have no clue what Quantum Physics are, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

Who was the first to bring it up? As I recall, I only mentioned it after Arj? Now, as for quantum physics, and how it is considered weird, because it seems not to obey things like the speed of light, and time, etc. That is correct. You kidding???? Get a grip.

SAYS YOU!? And who are YOU to say that?

I am someone that calls you out to prove the same state you claim, and laughs as you fail. You can't begin to do it, nor can any man on earth!! So enjoy your myth.

So Egyptians lived in a universe where the light was different?

If they were post flood, the people who lived in that area, that came to be called Egypt did live in the former state for a while.

What about Indians and Chinese? Did they live in a different Universe too?

No, I don't think so, didn't they come a little later? The split was about a century after the flood.

So there was a split and those people all of a sudden started living in the "present state" universe??!? HAHHA
OMG, this is the funniest thing ever! Where do you come up with this stuff?

Right, our lifespans dropped drastically, plants grew slowly, light was different, the continents separated, and the decay state of matter started, etc.

How are the dates assigned? We have historical accounts of ancient Chinese, Indians and Egyptians (all of them have meticulous records)... nowhere in there does it say anything about a "split" and what the heck is the split anyway? What "far away stuff", there is no far away stuff that makes the universe expand... dad, if you're going to talk about something at least make sense.

You are wrong!!! There are no such records that are 'meticulous' for the folks that would have been here right after the flood at all! Look into it. The so called king lists are a joke. Not dependable for dates at all. They always rely on decay dating. Period.

OMG HAHAHA! You really don't know what you're talking about!

Well, science has squat to say about it, and the bible is very much on my side here. What you got???

.. I "thunk" about it, and I figured the more reasonable thing that could have happened is not that a split occurred and then caused redshift, but my favorite unicorn cut the cheese ;)

Right, submit that to the world myth list, and see how it fares. But your myth is as good as the same state past myth, that ends up seeing the sun, moon, and stars, and trillions of galaxies all in a soup speck so small, it could fit in a pore in your nose.

Dad, if the stars are billions of light years away it means that the light which we're seeing right now IS billions of years old!

Not at all, it means ONLY that our current light, in this current universe state only can travel a certain speed. Meaningless to the past!!! Unless you prove it was this state also!

If the light has to travel x-billion light years, then it is x-billion years old. What that means is that GOD did not create the universe 6k years ago (because he also created light at the same time), but he created it billions of years ago.

No, this was not the created light, any more than this is the eternal created universe! Things changed. Things will change back. Be happy.

If the light is not that old because of some magic event, but the stars are billions of light-years away, then how are we seeing the light that's coming from them?

Because the light was left with the information it carried, on the light superhighway, but the light was not the light that existed as such in the created universe. The light of the created universe was spiritual and physical, not just PO state light. Spirits have not the physical limits material things do. Likewise, the merged state light had no present state limits.

And if a unicorn farted, then we wouldn't need a split! HAHAHAH OK Dad, I change my theory!
A unicorn farted and caused redshift, the universe is NOT expanding! HAHAHAHAHA

You are welcome to change your myth. I suppose it passes the time, since you can't pony up the proof for your so called science claim. Sad.

Well you're wrong, our records begin even further back in time with the ancient Chinese and Indians... they have very meticulous records, you should do some more research.

Really, now??? How about showing us any date older than 4500 years??!! Give us your best shot. You will find you are wrong.

Yes there IS documentary evidence of the "big pyramids"- THEY STILL EXIST! How about the long lifespan, where would we find this evidence dad? Please let us know!

So? When were they built? Don't try to wiggle out of it.

Dad, my feeling for your whole misconception is that your lack of scientific knowledge does not allow you to really understand how we determine dates, times and historical events.

Well, your feelings are touching and all, but, no, not even close. Foe rxample, radioactive decay now works a certain way. The parent breaks down, and, over time, depending on the half life, daughter material is produced. They use this to assign dates. If the different state universe saw the materials, parent and daughters, used in another process, then the current relationship is meaningless to real time!

So if you don't understand how CMB works, or how radiation works, then how do you suppose you can argue against it?

I don't, there is a background radiation, and a present decay process. No need to argue against it.

What else caused redshift? The farting unicorn? How far in the past dad? Please be specific about what you're saying.

Around the time of the split. Pay attention, I must have said how long ago it was many times here in this thread. About 4400 years ago. About a century after the flood. Write that down, it's a good one.

No, you assumed it wasn't ,

Since it is only assumed to be, there is nothing wrong with other assumptions, especially if they agree with God.

but you haven't proven it. I showed you plenty of evidence, even your own words contradict what you're saying.

Only in your mind, which seems to have basic comprehension problems with anything challenging your myth.

And when does it slow down? HAHAHA,

It doesn't slow down. The new light that comes to exist from the former state light becomes our light. Our light didn't slow down, or we would know that!

So light was faster before? Where do you get that? It certainly doesn't say it in the bible HAHAHAH

You seem to be regressing to cackling a lot as of late. Maybe you should take a nice quiet rest. It is a little concerning. Yes, created state light is also spiritual, and spirits can really move.

Light was faster "before the split"? Maybe the farting unicorn made it accelerate faster HAHAHA

Well, here your new myth falls short, and science knocks it out of the field. Light could not have changed speed greatly in this universe, without big consequences, that science would know about.

AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
DONE AND DONE!
Dad, you are officially DONE! Just stop! You really are embarrassing yourself!

I see. Some seem to take it harder than others, starting to learn that what they thought was science is purest myth. You seem to be losing it.

You don't need any major scientific knowledge to know that the Universe has just split. If the light is traveling slower, the stones are harder to move to make Big pyramids, and gravity isn't working the same, I suspect people WOULD know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out .

They would know a lot of things were different. But the world at that time had just had the languages divided, so who was going to tell much about it?? With all these people staring to die faster, no wonder the Egyptians were all hung up on death, and graves!!! The evidence mounts!

Same past state is IRRELEVANT dad ,

I agree, so why base your every so called science claim of the far past on it????? Work on that.

what part of that don't you understand? What makes you think that "same past state" is even relevant? Please explain, because what you have given so far is your skewed opinions which make no sense and only exist in your head.

It is not relevant, except in the assumptions of science! They assume the present is the key to the past, because they assume this present universe is the state of the past. I thought we covered that?

Unless you can come up with some reasonable logic to even remotely explain what you mean, I suggest you give up on trying to push your "same past state" fantasies.

The logic is that science uses that assumption for ALL claims of the past, and evolution, and etc etc etc. (evolution in the old sense of the word, abiogenesis, is the more modern word)

And you have offered nothing! ..

I have offered you and others who push they myth a chance to show their stuff, and make a liar of me, and prove the bejinkers out of it. You can't. Check, and mate. God was right all along.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

You misunderstand, I don't say our light sped up, it was a different light, in a different universe state. Our light is what we were left with here, that can exist in this temporary state.

That doesn't make sense. That is not even science you are describing. That is metaphysical.

No, I am saying that things far away happened a long time ago.

That is true. Everyone here accepts that. It is also true, that no matter what direction you look in, the stars that lay on the same distance away are all shifted the same. Scientist know that they are shifted because the can study light to know what the composition of the star is, and the expected light from that composition would be, then they compare that to the light that is actually reaching us. That difference is a the shift. No matter what direction you look in, stars are all shifted to the same degree if they are the same distance from us away.

The further the distance, hence the further back in time, the more the shift.

I think you are suffering from lack of use of Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is typically the best. The simplest idea is that they are moving away from us, and the further back in time you go, the faster they are moving. Hence deduction would tell you that the universe is expanding.

Well, if there is some movement, that we know by other means than redshifting, we could look at that. I think it should be obvious, that, if there really was a totally different universe state back then, a little red shift effect on light during the changeover is no big deal.
And, if you say there was no different universe, then you are left with proving it!

Actually that is a complete fallacy. If you are postulating there to be a different state that causes the shift, the burden of proof would be on you to show what that state would be.

If they were post flood, the people who lived in that area, that came to be called Egypt did live in the former state for a while.

What would this state have been? You claim a different state, the burden is on you to explain it and deduce why.

Right, our lifespans dropped drastically, plants grew slowly, light was different, the continents separated, and the decay state of matter started, etc.

Again, the burden is on you to prove that our life span is different. Also, the shift in plates would take more than a few k years to drift away as far as the have. You do realize they are shifting at the rate you fingernail grows, right?

They always rely on decay dating. Period.

RM dating is not just a one thing. There are various forms that all produce the same age range. It is a science unlike Hovind and the ID crowd would like you to believe. Reference me on peer reviewed paper that denounces RM dating. Again, a peer reviewed paper in a respected journal. Not some book you can buy at a bookstore for 15.99

Not at all, it means ONLY that our current light, in this current universe state only can travel a certain speed. Meaningless to the past!!! Unless you prove it was this state also!

I suggest reading up on logical fallacies. You are committing more than I even care to explain to you.

Because the light was left with the information it carried, on the light superhighway, but the light was not the light that existed as such in the created universe. The light of the created universe was spiritual and physical, not just PO state light. Spirits have not the physical limits material things do. Likewise, the merged state light had no present state limits

Again you mix metaphysics with physics. The two do not mesh.

Really, now??? How about showing us any date older than 4500 years??!! Give us your best shot. You will find you are wrong.

Again, I suggest you study on RM dating. all the forms of dating point to many items from ancient civilization that go back. Way back. Read up on the artifacts recovered from Jericho. They go back to 10k BCE.

If you believe RM to be wrong, the burden is on you to either prove it, or produce a peer reviewed paper(s) that do. I can link you to some peer reviewed papers that show its accuracy if you wish.

If the different state universe saw the materials, parent and daughters, used in another process, then the current relationship is meaningless to real time!

You are making this claim. You must back it up or it will be a fallacy.

Around the time of the split. Pay attention, I must have said how long ago it was many times here in this thread. About 4400 years ago. About a century after the flood. Write that down, it's a good one.

Giving a date for you cause is not giving a reason. What is the reason for the cause.

Only in your mind, which seems to have basic comprehension problems with anything challenging your myth.

You give no cause. You only say there is one. What is it?

You seem to be regressing to cackling a lot as of late. Maybe you should take a nice quiet rest. It is a little concerning. Yes, created state light is also spiritual, and spirits can really move.

Metaphysics is not physics. Give us a physics answer. Otherwise, you stand refuted.

I can say that electricity is the blood of spirits, and everytime you turn on your laptop, you drain the life from you great great grandpa. But, I would be required to prove it, otherwise I am just being silly.

It is not relevant, except in the assumptions of science! They assume the present is the key to the past, because they assume this present universe is the state of the past. I thought we covered that?

Again, I refer you to study on Occam's razor. We assume that the current state holds true. To claim otherwise, would shift the burden of proof on you. Where is your proof?

The logic is that science uses that assumption for ALL claims of the past, and evolution, and etc etc etc. (evolution in the old sense of the word, abiogenesis, is the more modern word)

evolution does not = abiogenesis. Abiogenesis can be considered metaphysics as of now.

I have offered you and others who push they myth a chance to show their stuff, and make a liar of me, and prove the bejinkers out of it. You can't. Check, and mate. God was right all along.

You state nothing but the world was different. You have the burden of proof.

I can state that we are all trapped in a virtual program, and you couldn't prove me wrong. Does that make me right? No, because I haven't proved my case. The burden of proof is on me to prove we are in the matrix. Otherwise all unfalsifiable claims would be true, and we would both be in a virtual program, and the bacteria of a super being.

Which of course would contradict each other.

The burden of proof lays on the person claiming the radical thought.

You claim things were radically different. Prove it, or stand refuted.

 

[Guest]

And I didn't mention quantum physics, you did... and you don't know what you're talking about! Dad, stop before you hurt my brain! You really have no clue what Quantum Physics are, and you have no clue what you're talking about.

Who was the first to bring it up? As I recall, I only mentioned it after Arj? Now, as for quantum physics, and how it is considered weird, because it seems not to obey things like the speed of light, and time, etc. That is correct. You kidding???? Get a grip.

I'm not Arj, so you get a grip .

I am someone that calls you out to prove the same state you claim, and laughs as you fail. You can't begin to do it, nor can any man on earth!! So enjoy your myth.

But I don't claim the "same state past", YOU say that I do, but I never claimed that . Get it through your head!

So Egyptians lived in a universe where the light was different?

If they were post flood, the people who lived in that area, that came to be called Egypt did live in the former state for a while.

Uhm... the Shang Dynasty (ancient China) ruled almost 4000 years ago, they don't mention anything about a changed Universe... it would be a pretty obvious event if it did happen. Neither did the Egyptians. Mehrgarh (India) existed almost 1000 years ago, they show evidence of farming, the tools they used indicate that the plants grew at the same rate as now, why else would they need the tools to farm plants which grown almost instantly? So all of these people lived prior to the flood and after the flood their entire Universe changed without them noticing?

Now that my friend is MYTH!

What about Indians and Chinese? Did they live in a different Universe too?

No, I don't think so, didn't they come a little later? The split was about a century after the flood.

Ancient Chinese- Shang Dynasty united China a little later after 2000 BCE.
Ancient India- Mehrgarh, that civilization dates 10000 BCE.
Ancient India- Indus Valley Civilization, dates 3000 BCE.
Persian Civilizations- More than 8000 years ago (6000 years BCE). etc.
They definitely lived "before the flood"... none of those people bothered to notice a dramatic change in the Universe? MYTH!

So there was a split and those people all of a sudden started living in the "present state" universe??!? HAHHA
OMG, this is the funniest thing ever! Where do you come up with this stuff?

Right, our lifespans dropped drastically, plants grew slowly, light was different, the continents separated, and the decay state of matter started, etc.

MYTH! HAHA MYTH, MYTH, MYTH! Nothing but Myth! Chinese, Indians and Egyptians all predate the flood, yet none of them notice a dramatic change in the Universe!?

You are wrong!!! There are no such records that are 'meticulous' for the folks that would have been here right after the flood at all! Look into it. The so called king lists are a joke. Not dependable for dates at all. They always rely on decay dating. Period.

You look it up , both ancient Chinese and Indians had written records, even Egyptians had meticulous records about famines, rains, crop growth, floods, etc. No records of a dramatic change of the Universe! MYTH my friend MYTH!

Well, science has squat to say about it, and the bible is very much on my side here. What you got???

Please tell me where the bible mentions anything about the speed of light! PLEASE TELL ME! HAHA

.. I "thunk" about it, and I figured the more reasonable thing that could have happened is not that a split occurred and then caused redshift, but my favorite unicorn cut the cheese ;)

Right, submit that to the world myth list, and see how it fares. But your myth is as good as the same state past myth, that ends up seeing the sun, moon, and stars, and trillions of galaxies all in a soup speck so small, it could fit in a pore in your nose.

But you claim that I need "same state past", I never said anything that relates to it, nor do I need it to prove anything. I'm always talking about the current Universe, and you always try to talk about the past. I'm only concerned with the past when you are misguided about it. And you are often misguided about a LOT of things! Same with your myth about the split.

Dad, if the stars are billions of light years away it means that the light which we're seeing right now IS billions of years old!

Not at all, it means ONLY that our current light, in this current universe state only can travel a certain speed. Meaningless to the past!!! Unless you prove it was this state also!

Dad, then we would see no light right now... but anyway, your theory of different light speed (faster light speed) is a MYTH, no proof of that, not even in the Bible. You just made it up
Even if there was a different light speed, the light would have reached the earth, then on the slow-down there would be no light... the light would still not be reaching us because your "split" is no more than 6000k years. The only thing we would see is the stars within 6000k light years away, but we're seeing MUCH more than that! Dad, MYTH admit it, your theory is MYTH!

If the light has to travel x-billion light years, then it is x-billion years old. What that means is that GOD did not create the universe 6k years ago (because he also created light at the same time), but he created it billions of years ago.

No, this was not the created light, any more than this is the eternal created universe! Things changed. Things will change back. Be happy.

MYTH dad, MYTH! What changed? What was light before the split, how fast did it travel? Where were the other stars? What about the other people which we know lived on earth? How about the mammoths, saber-tooths, dinosaurs, extinct scorpions, and hundreds of other things that predate the flood and the split and your whole MYTH? What about all that stuff?

If the light is not that old because of some magic event, but the stars are billions of light-years away, then how are we seeing the light that's coming from them?

Because the light was left with the information it carried, on the light superhighway, but the light was not the light that existed as such in the created universe. The light of the created universe was spiritual and physical, not just PO state light. Spirits have not the physical limits material things do. Likewise, the merged state light had no present state limits.

YAY! "Light superhighway" MYTH! I bet it had different speed limits hahaha, and no cops to pull the light over HAHAH!
"Light was left with information it carried" MYTH! Light carries NO information Where do you get this stuff from? I have never heard ANYBODY mention this before, not even the Bible! Myth Dad, MYTH!

Dad, you make no sense. What information is carried by light? What "light superhighway"? So there are two lights- one that existed in the created universe and one that didn't?
So the Spiritual Light was faster than the Physical Light, well which light are we seeing now: spiritual or physical? So where is the spiritual light? What happened to it? MYTH!

And if a unicorn farted, then we wouldn't need a split! HAHAHAH OK Dad, I change my theory!
A unicorn farted and caused redshift, the universe is NOT expanding! HAHAHAHAHA

You are welcome to change your myth. I suppose it passes the time, since you can't pony up the proof for your so called science claim. Sad.

It's not a myth, a Unicorn really did it, you assume that a unicorn didn't exist and couldn't do that, but in the different state of the Universe it did! Prove me wrong!

Well you're wrong, our records begin even further back in time with the ancient Chinese and Indians... they have very meticulous records, you should do some more research.

Really, now??? How about showing us any date older than 4500 years??!! Give us your best shot. You will find you are wrong.

OK Have you heard of Gilgamesh? That story alone is 4750 years old, but that's just a story , I'll tell you about other writings: Vedas (from India) are almost 6k years old), Archaic Egyptian well over 5000 years and probably the most reliable. So there are some that are just stories, but the Egyptians kept records , look it up. Archaic Egyptian is existed more than 2600 years BCE, now it's 2007, so that's more than 4607 years ago - they had pictographic symbols representing a specific place, object, or quantity, very interesting stuff .

Yes there IS documentary evidence of the "big pyramids"- THEY STILL EXIST! How about the long lifespan, where would we find this evidence dad? Please let us know!

So? When were they built? Don't try to wiggle out of it.

You tell me , you seem to be the expert there HAHAH! I'll tell you this, the great pyramids are dated between 2600 BCE to about 1800 BCE, that puts the pyramids after 2400 BCE post-flood, thus created in the Universe with the same state as now... But the weird thing is that the size of the stones didn't change during that time, this clearly indicating that the Egyptians were equally capable of moving big stones even after the flood. Strange? HEHEH

Well, your feelings are touching and all, but, no, not even close. Foe rxample, radioactive decay now works a certain way. The parent breaks down, and, over time, depending on the half life, daughter material is produced. They use this to assign dates. If the different state universe saw the materials, parent and daughters, used in another process, then the current relationship is meaningless to real time!

Yes, but if you look at the ancient Chinese, Egyptians and Indians there is no evidence of any dramatic change in the Universe. If such thing ever occurred it would turn the world upside down (literally), and people would notice! Not only that, but chemicals would be bonded differently, thus leaving plenty of evidence that something happened, and believe me, NOTHING would survive this kind of dramatic change! Yet the Chinese, Indians, ancient Egyptians did... so did the cave writings, do did a lot of things! Dad, face it, what you're talking about is PURE MYTH!

So if you don't understand how CMB works, or how radiation works, then how do you suppose you can argue against it?

I don't, there is a background radiation, and a present decay process. No need to argue against it.

So what are yo

What else caused redshift? The farting unicorn? How far in the past dad? Please be specific about what you're saying.

Around the time of the split. Pay attention, I must have said how long ago it was many times here in this thread. About 4400 years ago. About a century after the flood. Write that down, it's a good one.

And what caused redshift after the split, about 4400 years ago?

No, you assumed it wasn't ,

Since it is only assumed to be, there is nothing wrong with other assumptions, especially if they agree with God.

AHHAHA, but if they don't agree with God, then they're wrong HAHAHAHA DAD, you crack me up! I'm going to put this up on my cube at work: "Assumptions which are wrong, but agree with God, are still good assumptions!" hahaha

but you haven't proven it. I showed you plenty of evidence, even your own words contradict what you're saying.

Only in your mind, which seems to have basic comprehension problems with anything challenging your myth.

Dad, it's your job to convey your thoughts correctly... my mind has nothing to do with your inability to put to coherent sentences together. SO: yes, your words to contradict themselves, would you like me to quote you?

And when does it slow down? HAHAHA,

It doesn't slow down. The new light that comes to exist from the former state light becomes our light. Our light didn't slow down, or we would know that!

So which light are we seeing now: the new light or the old light?

So light was faster before? Where do you get that? It certainly doesn't say it in the bible HAHAHAH

You seem to be regressing to cackling a lot as of late. Maybe you should take a nice quiet rest. It is a little concerning. Yes, created state light is also spiritual, and spirits can really move.

Are we seeing it? Where did you get this information? The bible? Please show me anywhere in the Bible where the speed of light is mentioned. ANYWHERE? Good luck!

Light was faster "before the split"? Maybe the farting unicorn made it accelerate faster HAHAHA

Well, here your new myth falls short, and science knocks it out of the field. Light could not have changed speed greatly in this universe, without big consequences, that science would know about.

But that's not true, because it was before the split... thus science would know nothing about the Farting Unicorn. How would science prove that the Farting Unicorn didn't do it?

You don't need any major scientific knowledge to know that the Universe has just split. If the light is traveling slower, the stones are harder to move to make Big pyramids, and gravity isn't working the same, I suspect people WOULD know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out .

They would know a lot of things were different. But the world at that time had just had the languages divided, so who was going to tell much about it?? With all these people staring to die faster, no wonder the Egyptians were all hung up on death, and graves!!! The evidence mounts!

What was the language divided into? Gilgamesh dates over 4700 years old, oldest Indian and Chinese writings both predate the flood... all of them were in different languages. Neither the Chinese nor the Indians had any significant infatuation with death, as you claim that to be evidence of shorter life span. The evidence mounts.

Same past state is IRRELEVANT dad ,

I agree, so why base your every so called science claim of the far past on it????? Work on that.

I don't: you say that I do, but I don't... All the evidence for the Expansion of the Universe exists now, and we can clearly say that the evidence which exists NOW shows that the Universe is expanding NOW I don't see why you need to have "same state past" in order to tell what's happening now .

what part of that don't you understand? What makes you think that "same past state" is even relevant? Please explain, because what you have given so far is your skewed opinions which make no sense and only exist in your head.

It is not relevant, except in the assumptions of science! They assume the present is the key to the past, because they assume this present universe is the state of the past. I thought we covered that?

And I told you for 100s of times that it's irrelevant for the conclusion that the Universe is Expanding... it doesn't matter what the past state was, we are currently seeing that the Universe is Expanding...

Unless you can come up with some reasonable logic to even remotely explain what you mean, I suggest you give up on trying to push your "same past state" fantasies.

The logic is that science uses that assumption for ALL claims of the past, and evolution, and etc etc etc. (evolution in the old sense of the word, abiogenesis, is the more modern word)

But we're talking about the expanding space at the moment... who cares about the past and why is it needed to explain why the Universe is Expanding?

And you have offered nothing! ..

I have offered you and others who push they myth a chance to show their stuff, and make a liar of me, and prove the bejinkers out of it. You can't. Check, and mate. God was right all along.

[/quote]
Dad, you are seriously demented... I am really sorry for you, but I have shown you that even your statements contradict themselves, let alone trying to prove me wrong!

Here are some of the claims which still lay unanswered:
1. After the split the spiritual/fast light was transformed into the current light (if I'm understanding you correctly). The current light is slower than the previous light. Which light are we seeing now? The fast/spiritual or the current/slow light?
2. You claim that there are no records older than 4500 years, but many Chinese, Egyptian and Indian are more than 5-6k years old, how do you explain that without contradicting yourself?
3. You say that there was a division of language after the spit about 4500 years ago, but the Chinese, Indian, Egyptian and even many written languages in Mesopotamia (see Gilgamesh) predate the split. How do you explain that?
4. How far are the current galaxies?
5. How are we seeing the current galaxies? What light is coming from them (old light, new light)?
6. How did the Egyptians move the same size stones after the split/flood?
7. Why didn't anybody notice that the Universe had just had a major change?
8. If lifespan was shorter, then why don't we see the same infatuation with death among the Indians and Chinese as we see in the Egyptians.
9. How do you know that the Egyptians were infatuated with death because the lifespan shortened?
10. Where does the Bible mention specifically that the speed of light changed?
11. How long does it take for the light to travel to Earth from a galaxy 1 billion light years way?
12. Where in the bible does it say that the Universe split?

 

[dad]

That doesn't make sense. That is not even science you are describing. That is metaphysical.

Or supernatural, any way you like to call it, but, no, it is not science, unless you solidly evidence your foundational premise, that the state of the universe was as it now is! You see, so called science has simply relied solely on assuming that it was, the jig's up. It wasn't. And it is not science to say it was. Period.

That is true. Everyone here accepts that. It is also true, that no matter what direction you look in, the stars that lay on the same distance away are all shifted the same. Scientist know that they are shifted because the can study light to know what the composition of the star is, and the expected light from that composition would be, then they compare that to the light that is actually reaching us. That difference is a the shift. No matter what direction you look in, stars are all shifted to the same degree if they are the same distance from us away.

How would that matter in the slightest, in relation to the state of the universe in the past? If the universe was changed, would not it change in every direction?? Get serious. If it did not, then, prove it was the same. Or you have no case at all.

The further the distance, hence the further back in time, the more the shift.

That is your myth based interpretation of what we actually see. For that to be valid, the universe needs to be the same then as now. So...prove it, or lose the claims!

I think you are suffering from lack of use of Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is typically the best. The simplest idea is that they are moving away from us, and the further back in time you go, the faster they are moving. Hence deduction would tell you that the universe is expanding.

That is only the best assuming there was no created state, and that this temporary universe is all there is. If I am right, Occam lives, as we speak in an eternal form, if you are right, the monk is dead as your myth. It may be simple to claim that the tooth fairy waved a wand, but that is not evidenced, or science. Learn the difference.

Actually that is a complete fallacy. If you are postulating there to be a different state that causes the shift, the burden of proof would be on you to show what that state would be.

I am postulating that your claims are baseless, and I can prove it, and am proving it as we speak! You cannot back em up! Science can't go there, that is all I need. As for the bible, millions already know that there is power in it's words, if you no likey, you can have the dead end of science. But you cannot have your false past claims as anything but myth. Really.

What would this state have been? You claim a different state, the burden is on you to explain it and deduce why.

It would have been out of the depth of science, that deals only in the present state universe, by nature. Like the future, where the bible says we and the sun, and earth, and stars will be forever. That can't happen in this state, so we know it will be different. You need to deduce it was the same, and prove it, if you claim it. Otherwise it in UNKNOWN. Fess up.

(post was too long, I'll try to look at the rest later)

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Dad:
That is only the best assuming there was no created state, and that this temporary universe is all there is. If I am right, Occam lives, as we speak in an eternal form, if you are right, the monk is dead as your myth. It may be simple to claim that the tooth fairy waved a wand, but that is not evidenced, or science. Learn the difference.

Am I the only one having trouble to find a semblance of any coherent thought in this paragraph?

I am postulating that your claims are baseless, and I can prove it, and am proving it as we speak! You cannot back em up! Science can't go there, that is all I need. As for the bible, millions already know that there is power in it's words, if you no likey, you can have the dead end of science. But you cannot have your false past claims as anything but myth. Really.

Can you show me the evidence that there is actual power in words, aside from the psychological impact of the placebo effect?

I can direct you to a peer reviewed double blind study that shows no correlation with prayer and healing the sick.

Actually, in the same study, they took a third group and let them know they would be receiving prayer. That group faired worse than the double blinded group who received prayer, and the double blinded group who was the control group. Weird huh?

It would have been out of the depth of science, that deals only in the present state universe, by nature. Like the future, where the bible says we and the sun, and earth, and stars will be forever. That can't happen in this state, so we know it will be different. You need to deduce it was the same, and prove it, if you claim it. Otherwise it in UNKNOWN. Fess up

I implore you to understand deductive reasoning and the use of logic. Your fallacies are very blatant.

 

[Guest]

I am postulating that your claims are baseless, and I can prove it, and am proving it as we speak! You cannot back em up! Science can't go there, that is all I need. As for the bible, millions already know that there is power in it's words, if you no likey, you can have the dead end of science. But you cannot have your false past claims as anything but myth. Really.

Vault, you must understand that Dad is not dealing with a full deck of cards He always keeps the trumps for himself and then tries to play them when evidence is shown... Unfortunately we're not playing "Oh Hell", but rather "Texas Hold 'Em" .
OK, so if that analogy didn't mean much, here is what I'm talking about:
1. The first and foremost claim from Dad is that the Universe was in a different state approximately 4500 years ago.
2. The speed of light was different prior to the "split" as he calls it, the light being metaphysical/spiritual and "regular" light. An even more confusing statement from dad which attempts to explain this change:

Because the light was left with the information it carried, on the light superhighway, but the light was not the light that existed as such in the created universe. The light of the created universe was spiritual and physical, not just PO state light. Spirits have not the physical limits material things do. Likewise, the merged state light had no present state limits.

3. The split is an event which is occurred after "the flood" and it is vaguely described by dad as some kind of a slow down in the speed of light, or rather a switch where the "fast light" is replaced by the "slow light" (referring to slow light being the light we see now).
4. Dad also claims that this sudden slowing down/switching of light would cause red-shift, which we're currently seeing.
5. Dad also claims that there are no stars/galaxies more than 6000 light years away from us.
6. Dad agrees that Redshift explains the current phenomenon that we're seeing, but it's only applicable in the CURRENT state of the universe.
7. Egyptians are the only people who lived prior to the flood, they lived at a time where light was traveling faster, they lived longer, the trees grew faster, and the grand conclusion is that due to all of the above reasons, the Egyptians were able to move the big stones to make the big pyramids . (Obviously Dad didn't know about the Chinese, Indians and civilizations in Mesopotamia).
8. Dad also says that there are stars/galaxies billions of light years away, which is in DIRECT contradiction with #6.
Amongst all of the fallacies we see blatant contradictions. First and foremost Dad had no clue that Chinese, Indians and civilizations in Mesopotamia existed prior to 4500 years ago.

Being so bluntly misinformed, bending reality to suite your own needs, and creating false reality is just a common day activity practiced by "young-earth" theorists. Dad's theory greatly resembles Barry Setterfield's theories about "The Velocity of Light and the Age of the Universe", Satterfield has suffered some great embarrassment and his ideas were even rejected by San Diego-based Institute for Creation Research.

The biggest contradiction is that the speed of light changed, but Dad has no proof of that, not even Biblical proof. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about the speed of light. The apparent dogma is rather transparent, but dad is yet to step up to the plate and offer proof that the speed of light changed. He would also have to explain what light we're seeing now: "fast light" which or the "slow light", and what light is coming from galaxies/stars which are located beyond 6000 light years away: "fast light" or "slow light". If there was a switch in light, then what occurred during the gap when the light from the far away galaxies hadn't reached us yet... etc.

 

[Dunzo]

OWNED.

Sorry dad, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case, you haven't got it.

 

[dad]

Again, the burden is on you to prove that our life span is different. Also, the shift in plates would take more than a few k years to drift away as far as the have. You do realize they are shifting at the rate you fingernail grows, right?

Not in any way is that close to the truth. Prove that the lifespans were the same, and we can talk. Until then, have another cup, of you have no idea whatsoever, and admit science does not know. That leaves us with actual evidence of the Sumer records, Egyptian, and the bible. Top that.

RM dating is not just a one thing. There are various forms that all produce the same age range.

All on the same principle! That this present decaying universe realities are the same as the past universe. That is a myth.

It is a science unlike Hovind and the ID crowd would like you to believe.

I have heard of Hovind, and ID, but never read anything about or from them. Try again. Your assumptions seem to be getting the better of you here.

Reference me on peer reviewed paper that denounces RM dating. Again, a peer reviewed paper in a respected journal. Not some book you can buy at a bookstore for 15.99

Science cannot go beyond this state, so what peers precisely lived longer than 4400 years, that you want me to ask??? Asking myth believing fishbowl physics folks that simply assume a same past state would not be asking my peers.

I suggest reading up on logical fallacies. You are committing more than I even care to explain to you.

They do not cover the state of the universe of the future or past. This is news????

Again you mix metaphysics with physics. The two do not mesh.

If you want to use physics to lay claim to the created universe state, and the future, you need to have a same past state. Where is it??? Why talk on and on, get to it, man, show us the evidences, and proof, or calm down.

Again, I suggest you study on RM dating. all the forms of dating point to many items from ancient civilization that go back. Way back. Read up on the artifacts recovered from Jericho. They go back to 10k BCE.

Utter balderdash. Jericho was long AFTER the universe change. Focus.

If you believe RM to be wrong, the burden is on you to either prove it, or produce a peer reviewed paper(s) that do. I can link you to some peer reviewed papers that show its accuracy if you wish.

I believe it is right, as long as we talk of this present universe. Beyond that, it is painfully obvious here, you have no clue.

You are making this claim. You must back it up or it will be a fallacy.

Baloney. Until you provide evidence of a same state past, that would have decay as we do, no one needs to prove otherwise. You offer a fallacy. Dig?

Giving a date for you cause is not giving a reason. What is the reason for the cause.

Man's wickedness, and the decision of the creator to limit man's lifespan.

You give no cause. You only say there is one. What is it?

It is this, that your myth is not proven, or science. Work on that.

Metaphysics is not physics. Give us a physics answer. Otherwise, you stand refuted.

Who CARES what is or what is not physics????? Prove that there was physics at play in the fields of the Lord in the past, or phooey on you present physics. Keep that stuff in the fishbowl of the present.

I can say that electricity is the blood of spirits, and everytime you turn on your laptop, you drain the life from you great great grandpa. But, I would be required to prove it, otherwise I am just being silly.

I agree. So??? I could say that the same past kissed the tooth fairy, and spawned all life in the crack of a rock. So??

Again, I refer you to study on Occam's razor. We assume that the current state holds true. To claim otherwise, would shift the burden of proof on you. Where is your proof?

Occam, the Christian monk would disagree that you should assume that the bible, and the new heavens are false. It is not the simplest assumption to assume that only this state ever existed at all. That is absurd. People study years and years to learn about this state universe, and how it was in the past, based on that. I could have a child understand a different past in a day. Your myth is complicated, ever changing, unproven, ungodly nonsense. I mean that.

evolution does not = abiogenesis. Abiogenesis can be considered metaphysics as of now.

That matters not a whit to me. Since evolving was a created trait, that we had in the different past, that is a moot point!!!

You state nothing but the world was different. You have the burden of proof.

No, because you have the phony science case, you alone have the burden of proof. I go beyond the fishbowl limits of mere present natural science.

I can state that we are all trapped in a virtual program, and you couldn't prove me wrong.

Don't teach that as science, and who cares? Be nuts all you like.

Does that make me right? No, because I haven't proved my case. The burden of proof is on me to prove we are in the matrix. Otherwise all unfalsifiable claims would be true, and we would both be in a virtual program, and the bacteria of a super being.

That being said, your same past universe in not falsifiable. Does that mean it is true, just because it opposes the word of God???? get real. You guys have gotten away with too much, too long.

The burden of proof lays on the person claiming the radical thought.

So now it is a radical thought to ask people to back up claims of science!??? Get a grip, man.

You claim things were radically different. Prove it, or stand refuted.

There is no science for a same or past universe state. Please inform us why we must believe and accept your myth!!???

 

[dad]

I'm not Arj, so you get a grip .

It's my thread, and I respected the one that raised the quantum issue. Deal with it.

But I don't claim the "same state past", YOU say that I do, but I never claimed that . Get it through your head!

Great, so you think the universe in the past was.....what???? Different?

Uhm... the Shang Dynasty (ancient China) ruled almost 4000 years ago, they don't mention anything about a changed Universe...

Since the split was almost half a millennia before that, why would they????

it would be a pretty obvious event if it did happen. Neither did the Egyptians.

That is debatable, whether early Egypt seemed to be quite different or not.

Mehrgarh (India) existed almost 1000 years ago, they show evidence of farming, the tools they used indicate that the plants grew at the same rate as now, why else would they need the tools to farm plants which grown almost instantly? So all of these people lived prior to the flood and after the flood their entire Universe changed without them noticing?

Excuse me, what does 100 years ago have to do with anything discussed here?

Ancient Chinese- Shang Dynasty united China a little later after 2000 BCE.

So?

Ancient India- Mehrgarh, that civilization dates 10000 BCE.

Prove it!!! I call you out here.

Persian Civilizations- More than 8000 years ago (6000 years BCE). etc.

Ditto. I call you out.

MYTH! HAHA MYTH, MYTH, MYTH! Nothing but Myth! Chinese, Indians and Egyptians all predate the flood, yet none of them notice a dramatic change in the Universe!?

So you say, and we wait, with bated breath for you to really evidence those claims. Let's see the BASIS of why you say that.

You look it up , both ancient Chinese and Indians had written records, even Egyptians had meticulous records about famines, rains, crop growth, floods, etc. No records of a dramatic change of the Universe! MYTH my friend MYTH!

Show us when these records were written. No wiggling, now, you will have to defend your claims. I kid you not.

Please tell me where the bible mentions anything about the speed of light! PLEASE TELL ME! HAHA

It says that the stars were made for signs for man to SEE. Capice? We were meade in a week. The stars are far away. Any more questions?

But you claim that I need "same state past", I never said anything that relates to it, nor do I need it to prove anything. I'm always talking about the current Universe, and you always try to talk about the past. I'm only concerned with the past when you are misguided about it. And you are often misguided about a LOT of things! Same with your myth about the split.

Then show us how this current universe state was in existence 5000 years ago.

Dad, then we would see no light right now... but anyway, your theory of different light speed (faster light speed) is a MYTH, no proof of that, not even in the Bible.

So, then do tell us how Adam saw the far stars, if the light was as it now is????

You just made it up
Even if there was a different light speed, the light would have reached the earth, then on the slow-down there would be no light... the light would still not be reaching us because your "split" is no more than 6000k years. The only thing we would see is the stars within 6000k light years away, but we're seeing MUCH more than that! Dad, MYTH admit it, your theory is MYTH!

Oh, no, not at all. "The" light we have is not "The" light in the created state universe. Our light takes a long time to get a long way. The created light did no such thing.

MYTH dad, MYTH! What changed? What was light before the split, how fast did it travel? Where were the other stars? What about the other people which we know lived on earth? How about the mammoths, saber-tooths, dinosaurs, extinct scorpions, and hundreds of other things that predate the flood and the split and your whole MYTH? What about all that stuff?

What light does science deal with, and know, and is limited to?? --Our light. So, any light in a different universe is beyond the scope of science.
As for mammoths, what about them?? Extinct creatures..so what???? Show us anything that predates the flood! ( I can, but I thought I would ask you, since you brought it up)

YAY! "Light superhighway" MYTH! I bet it had different speed limits hahaha, and no cops to pull the light over HAHAH!

No PO cops were there, of course, no. The true light ripped across the universe so fast, any PO cops that might have been there, would just shake theor heads, and not bother to get on their silly little PO motorcycles.

"Light was left with information it carried" MYTH! Light carries NO information Where do you get this stuff from? I have never heard ANYBODY mention this before, not even the Bible! Myth Dad, MYTH!

Light carries info, this is news??? We can read the spectral info in light to determine many things.

Dad, you make no sense. What information is carried by light? What "light superhighway"? So there are two lights- one that existed in the created universe and one that didn't?
So the Spiritual Light was faster than the Physical Light, well which light are we seeing now: spiritual or physical? So where is the spiritual light? What happened to it? MYTH!

What happened to the former light happened to the former universe. It ain't here no more for the time being. The universe we live in now is the Physical only universe. Our light is the PO light.

It's not a myth, a Unicorn really did it, you assume that a unicorn didn't exist and couldn't do that, but in the different state of the Universe it did! Prove me wrong!

No need to at all, I do not defend the so called science claims, that depend on the assumption of a same state past. Once you admit that science can't go to the far past, it is every myth for itself. I happen to have a real well evidenced myth, so I have no worries.

OK Have you heard of Gilgamesh? That story alone is 4750 years old, but that's just a story ,

Prove it. You are now near the limits of history, and near the time of the split. Show us how you date the stories. Precisely.

I'll tell you about other writings: Vedas (from India) are almost 6k years old), Archaic Egyptian well over 5000 years and probably the most reliable.

Show us the basis for the dates!!! Really. --Or stop preaching.

So there are some that are just stories, but the Egyptians kept records , look it up. Archaic Egyptian is existed more than 2600 years BCE, now it's 2007, so that's more than 4607 years ago - they had pictographic symbols representing a specific place, object, or quantity, very interesting stuff .

Of course man had to resort to drawing pictures after the tower of Babel time. You are close, but no cigar. Prove that the records are more than 4500 years old.

You tell me , you seem to be the expert there HAHAH! I'll tell you this, the great pyramids are dated between 2600 BCE to about 1800 BCE, that puts the pyramids after 2400 BCE post-flood, thus created in the Universe with the same state as now... But the weird thing is that the size of the stones didn't change during that time, this clearly indicating that the Egyptians were equally capable of moving big stones even after the flood. Strange? HEHEH

You are wrong. The early pyramids were bigger. The trend was, over time, to get smaller. You offered dates, show us the basis for the dating, exactly!!?

Yes, but if you look at the ancient Chinese, Egyptians and Indians there is no evidence of any dramatic change in the Universe. If such thing ever occurred it would turn the world upside down (literally), and people would notice! Not only that, but chemicals would be bonded differently, thus leaving plenty of evidence that something happened, and believe me, NOTHING would survive this kind of dramatic change! Yet the Chinese, Indians, ancient Egyptians did... so did the cave writings, do did a lot of things! Dad, face it, what you're talking about is PURE MYTH!

If ALL chemicals were affected, what change would we expect???

And what caused redshift after the split, about 4400 years ago?

Something that temporary universe science can not know. Any tough questions?

AHHAHA, but if they don't agree with God, then they're wrong HAHAHAHA DAD, you crack me up! I'm going to put this up on my cube at work: "Assumptions which are wrong, but agree with God, are still good assumptions!" hahaha

Well, since there is no science to prove that your myth assumptions are right, why not expect that God was right all along???

Dad, it's your job to convey your thoughts correctly... my mind has nothing to do with your inability to put to coherent sentences together. SO: yes, your words to contradict themselves, would you like me to quote you?

Well, I looked at your quotes, and can't see where the so called contradiction is. Again, it is only in your head. Do spell out what it is you think precisely that contradicts.

But that's not true, because it was before the split... thus science would know nothing about the Farting Unicorn. How would science prove that the Farting Unicorn didn't do it?

If you don't know that, why ask?

What was the language divided into?

Many different tongues.

Gilgamesh dates over 4700 years old,

Prove it.

oldest Indian and Chinese writings both predate the flood... all of them were in different languages. Neither the Chinese nor the Indians had any significant infatuation with death, as you claim that to be evidence of shorter life span. The evidence mounts.

The evidence mounts that you can't focus on the timeframes involved. Who cares about history that is in the current universe state, as having anything to do with the former state???

I don't: you say that I do, but I don't... All the evidence for the Expansion of the Universe exists now, and we can clearly say that the evidence which exists NOW shows that the Universe is expanding NOW

But that is obscenely false. Are you suggesting that we are seeing the universe in real time??? Are you suggesting that stars billions of light years away are showing us what they are NOW doing??? Sorry, but you seem top have lost it.

I don't see why you need to have "same state past" in order to tell what's happening now .

Because far away things did not happen now. It was a long time ago. Learn the difference.

And I told you for 100s of times that it's irrelevant for the conclusion that the Universe is Expanding... it doesn't matter what the past state was, we are currently seeing that the Universe is Expanding...

Not from redshifted light billions of light years away. Not from CMB, that is supposedly a remnant from long ago. So, where is this stuff we are seeing from now????

But we're talking about the expanding space at the moment... who cares about the past and why is it needed to explain why the Universe is Expanding?

Show us something, then, that is purely from the present, that shows the universe is expanding.

Dad, you are seriously demented... I am really sorry for you, but I have shown you that even your statements contradict themselves, let alone trying to prove me wrong!

No, you have told us how your mind perceives what was actually said. Unless you give the details, how can your misconceptions even be addressed?

Here are some of the claims which still lay unanswered:
1. After the split the spiritual/fast light was transformed into the current light (if I'm understanding you correctly). The current light is slower than the previous light. Which light are we seeing now? The fast/spiritual or the current/slow light?

The present universe has the present light.

2. You claim that there are no records older than 4500 years, but many Chinese, Egyptian and Indian are more than 5-6k years old, how do you explain that without contradicting yourself?

Easy, your dates are wrong. As we all will see if you ever try to support them.

3. You say that there was a division of language after the spit about 4500 years ago, but the Chinese, Indian, Egyptian and even many written languages in Mesopotamia (see Gilgamesh) predate the split. How do you explain that?

Your dates are wrong wrong wrong.

4. How far are the current galaxies?

Doesn't matter. Light from the former state could get here fast from anywhere if it needed to.

5. How are we seeing the current galaxies? What light is coming from them (old light, new light)?

We see them with our current light.

6. How did the Egyptians move the same size stones after the split/flood?

Prove it.

7. Why didn't anybody notice that the Universe had just had a major change?

We did, but there also was a planetary language division, so we were busy with drawing pictures, learning about the now separated continents, short lifespans, and many other changes all around us.

8. If lifespan was shorter, then why don't we see the same infatuation with death among the Indians and Chinese as we see in the Egyptians.

They were later.

9. How do you know that the Egyptians were infatuated with death because the lifespan shortened?

That is a reasonable assumption, based on the records.

10. Where does the Bible mention specifically that the speed of light changed?

It mentions that we do not even need the present light of the sun in the new heavens coming. It also mentions that the far stars were made for us to see for signs, so they had to be seen near creation week.

11. How long does it take for the light to travel to Earth from a galaxy 1 billion light years way?

Now? A billion years. Then? Maybe a few days.

12. Where in the bible does it say that the Universe split?

I place it at the division in the days of Peleg.

 

[dad]

Am I the only one having trouble to find a semblance of any coherent thought in this paragraph?

Occam, in case you were not aware, was a Christian monk.

Can you show me the evidence that there is actual power in words, aside from the psychological impact of the placebo effect?

Depends on how you want to be shown. If you mean by science, can you show there is not? If not, then look at reality of human experience, and history, His words affected real lives. Millions and millions of them, in millions of different ways.

I can direct you to a peer reviewed double blind study that shows no correlation with prayer and healing the sick.

No you can't. Your peers, maybe, not mine! But I would maybe agree with the double blind bit. They are blind to the spiritual. Why would offering what the blind CAN"T see matter a whit??

Actually, in the same study, they took a third group and let them know they would be receiving prayer. That group faired worse than the double blinded group who received prayer, and the double blinded group who was the control group. Weird huh?

Not at all. Get some people who can see, and let them chose the victims for the study, and you will get real results. Get serious.

I implore you to understand deductive reasoning and the use of logic. Your fallacies are very blatant.

Nonsense. Noting that the bible talks of an eternal state is no fallacy, it is fact, as solid as any fact that ever found itself on this earth. Deal with it.

 

[dad]

OWNED.

Sorry dad, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In this case, you haven't got it.

You have the extraordinary claim that this universe was the same in the past, and call that science. No? So, give us science to prove that extraordinary claim. My claims are outside your fishbowl.

 

[Guest]

Your whole argument comes down to these things:

10. Where does the Bible mention specifically that the speed of light changed?

It mentions that we do not even need the present light of the sun in the new heavens coming. It also mentions that the far stars were made for us to see for signs, so they had to be seen near creation week.

That doesn't mean that the speed of light changed... tell me where we can specifically read that the speed of light was different? What you're showing me is completely different! Your whole MYTH about the speed of light being different so far hinges on your above statement. Your above statement shows no relation to the speed of light, thus your claim is MYTH!

11. How long does it take for the light to travel to Earth from a galaxy 1 billion light years way?

Now? A billion years. Then? Maybe a few days.

So did it take the light 1 billion years to reach the Earth from a galaxy 1 billion light years away? Done Dad Done! By your own words you say that it takes light billions of years, that's in direct contradiction that there was no "slow light" prior to 6000k years. If there wasn't any "slow light" then we wouldn't be seeing it!

 

[Dunzo]

Although this doesn't specifically talk about red shift, it's still very much relevant:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html

"If you propose that the universe and all in it is the product of an act of creation only 6-7000 years ago, many people ask - 'How is it that objects millions of light years away can be seen? Surely such light would take millions of years to reach us.'"

- Barry Setterfield, "The Velocity of Light and the Age of the Universe, Part 1," Ex Nihilo, vol. 4, no. 1, 1981


The above quote is, to my knowledge, the first salvo by Australian creationist Barry Setterfield regarding his hypothesis of "c-decay," the notion of the decreasing speed of light that has been used for years as evidence for a young universe. Setterfield's hypothesis, while initially embraced by the majority of the creationist community, received heavy criticism from the scientific establishment for several years since its introduction in 1981, and was finally rejected by the creationists themselves after it became such a major embarrassment that even the San Diego-based Institute for Creation Research rejected it (Acts and Facts , May 1988, G. Aardsma).

Right. That's that, then.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

1. The first and foremost claim from Dad is that the Universe was in a different state approximately 4500 years ago.

Yeah, but mu attempt was to try to get him to realize that making the claim without evidence says nothing. Obviously thats where the cards are missing as he does not seem to understand he can't just make random claims

Here is one for you dad:

Actually, we are all trapped in Thursdayism. All memories that you have before last thursday are false implants. Our universe actually only started last thursday. There is nothing in our actual past except the implanted memories. Also, the nucleus of every star is actually Godiva Chocolate. Yummy! I wish we could get to the center!

4. Dad also claims that this sudden slowing down/switching of light would cause red-shift, which we're currently seeing.

I know. That actually makes so little sense, that I think I lost an IQ point or 2 after reading it.

Why such a claim?

7. Egyptians are the only people who lived prior to the flood, they lived at a time where light was traveling faster, they lived longer, the trees grew faster, and the grand conclusion is that due to all of the above reasons, the Egyptians were able to move the big stones to make the big pyramids . (Obviously Dad didn't know about the Chinese, Indians and civilizations in Mesopotamia).

Does he not understand the consequences of raising the speed of light? Has he not heard of Einstein's theory of relativity? E=MC^2. That is basic stuff. Raise the speed of light, and you change everything.

Being so bluntly misinformed, bending reality to suite your own needs, and creating false reality is just a common day activity practiced by "young-earth" theorists. Dad's theory greatly resembles Barry Setterfield's theories about "The Velocity of Light and the Age of the Universe", Satterfield has suffered some great embarrassment and his ideas were even rejected by San Diego-based Institute for Creation Research.

Is that the guy who also claimed that we are sitting in a gravity bowl depression, and thereby time is in a slower for us? Called the Horizon solution or something stupid like that.

Well, anyway, judging by the arguments this guy is presenting, I think I will stop trying to rebut. Looks like you have done that all along, but he just refuses to look at the veracity of his own arguments.

I did like your theory on the farting unicorn though. I think you should write Hawking and implore him to investigate the mathematical consequences of unicornian flatulence and Hawking Radiation.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Occam, in case you were not aware, was a Christian monk.

I do not care if he was a juggling bear in the circus, it doesn't change the statement.

Usually the simplest solution is the correct one.

No you can't. Your peers, maybe, not mine! But I would maybe agree with the double blind bit. They are blind to the spiritual. Why would offering what the blind CAN"T see matter a whit??

Haha they weren't actually blind. Double blind means that the participants nor the people involved knew which group they were in.

Not at all. Get some people who can see, and let them chose the victims for the study, and you will get real results. Get serious.

Haha.

Yeah double blind is such bad science. If people do not know what people think is going to happen, it is not possible to corrupt the data by predispositions. Everyone knows that you need data that is corrupt, otherwise it's just science.

Nonsense. Noting that the bible talks of an eternal state is no fallacy, it is fact, as solid as any fact that ever found itself on this earth. Deal with it.

Yes there is nothing more solid than being able to see a tree from the for corners of the universe, or world wide total flood. The bible is such a good science book.

You have the extraordinary claim that this universe was the same in the past, and call that science. No? So, give us science to prove that extraordinary claim. My claims are outside your fishbowl.

Haha just like I make the extraordinary claim that everything before last thursday was real and not just false memories. I guess I should go out and find evidence that Thursdayism is a false idea.

 

[Guest]

I did like your theory on the farting unicorn though. I think you should write Hawking and implore him to investigate the mathematical consequences of unicornian flatulence and Hawking Radiation.

If following dad's (il)logical thought process, then The Farting Unicorn is irrefutable ! Nobody can prove that it didn't happen, nor can they prove that it happen, thus my conclusion is that it did happen! Even better, the Farting Unicorn explains our childish infatuation with unicorns and farting - remember when you were a little kid and you stuck your palm under your armpit and you squeezed it until you heard a farting noise? SEE THERE! IT MUST BE TRUE!

I'm yet to get any response from dad about the speed of light being mentioned in the Bible, oh SORRY, here is what he said :

It mentions that we do not even need the present light of the sun in the new heavens coming. It also mentions that the far stars were made for us to see for signs, so they had to be
seen near creation week.

Meaning that the sun will no longer exist when the new heavens come (in accord with what science is saying that the Sun will eventually "die"); meaning that the stars were visible near creation week, that's all... it doesn't mean that light traveled faster or the stars were close, they were just visible. A better conclusion is that God created the stars MANY years before Earth (in accord with the scientific proposition that Earth was formed well after many of the stars were already shining).

The bible NEVER mentions the speed of light, nor is there anything in the bible to suggest that the actual speed of light was different at some point and time- NONE! His whole argument hinges on that statement, if he can't provide proof of a different speed of light then he has no argument.

The expansion of space is also supported by the Bible which states that God "stretched out the heavens" in Isaiah 42:5, 45:12, 48:13, 51:13 and Jeremiah 10:12. God "stretched out the heavens", and following Newton's first law dictates that once in motion the stars will remain in motion. Simple and it even agrees with the Bible . Everything points to the fact that Space is Expanding (even by Biblical accounts), so dad: Space IS Expanding however you look at it.

Even more, if ALL of the stars/galaxies are within 6000 light years of us, then we would all fry to death- YES RIGHT NOW WE WOULD FRY TO DEATH! But when I asked dad how long does it take for light to travel from a galaxy 1 billion ly away, then he said 1 billion ly (now, but in pre-split it happened in days). Dad's admission that light has traveled for 1 billion years is in DIRECT contradiction with the claim that all stars/galaxies are less than 6k ly away: if the universe is not more than 6k years old we would not see the stars.

Here is the reasoning: we see the stars, some are billions of light years away, it takes that long for light to get here-> the stars/universe has existed for AT LEAST that long.

Counter-reasoning: if the stars are all within 6000 light years from earth then the amount of heat/energy would burn us, the stars would be so close to each-other that gravity would pull all of them together and everything will be crushed together (including Earth).

Dad, if you want to have a shot at this, stick with the Farting Unicorn

 

[VaultZero4Me]

His posts are so illogical and self contradicting, I am beginning to wonder if they are not trollish in nature. Not accusing you dad, but your line of reasoning is to just state that the unfalsifiable nature of your claims make them so.

Does it make sense to you if I say:

You can't travel to the center of the sun, therefore you can't prove the claim that nuclear fusion is the source of the energy it emits. Therefore, my claim that there is a man in the center who has a furnace he keeps shoveling more and more coal into, powers the sun is just as valid.

Does the fact you can't travel to the center make my claim more valid? No it does not. There is a tremendous amount of science backing the claim of it being a fusion reaction, and none to back the claim of the magic furnace and coal.

Bring some evidence to the table and we can discuss if there was a split sometime in the past, and the ramifications of it. In fact, if you can bring such evidence, and it can hold up to scrutiny, I will fight for you to win a Nobel prize myself

 

[dad]

Although this doesn't specifically talk about red shift, it's still very much relevant:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/c-decay.html

"If you propose that the universe and all in it is the product of an act of creation only 6-7000 years ago, many people ask - 'How is it that objects millions of light years away can be seen? Surely such light would take millions of years to reach us.'"

- Barry Setterfield, "The Velocity of Light and the Age of the Universe, Part 1," Ex Nihilo, vol. 4, no. 1, 1981


The above quote is, to my knowledge, the first salvo by Australian creationist Barry Setterfield regarding his hypothesis of "c-decay," the notion of the decreasing speed of light that has been used for years as evidence for a young universe. Setterfield's hypothesis, while initially embraced by the majority of the creationist community, received heavy criticism from the scientific establishment for several years since its introduction in 1981, and was finally rejected by the creationists themselves after it became such a major embarrassment that even the San Diego-based Institute for Creation Research rejected it (Acts and Facts , May 1988, G. Aardsma).

Right. That's that, then.

No that is something else entirely. That is Barry trying to use PO science to explain what went on in the different universe of the past. No wonder even creationists realize he was barking up the wrong tree.

 

[dad]

That doesn't mean that the speed of light changed...

You are right, if you mean the speed of OUR present light. No one suggests that. What happened was that we had a creation week, and far stars being made for man on earth to see. That does mean it could NOT be our present light. Get it?

So did it take the light 1 billion years to reach the Earth from a galaxy 1 billion light years away?

No, it may have taken an hour, or a day, or a few days. Period.

Done Dad Done! By your own words you say that it takes light billions of years, that's in direct contradiction that there was no "slow light" prior to 6000k years. If there wasn't any "slow light" then we wouldn't be seeing it!

I hope you are beginning to understand that what our present light does, or does not do matters not a whit to the different universe light, and what IT did. The slow light we know only came to exist after the flood, in the days of Peleg, as I so far understand it.