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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is Suffering A Punishment For SIN(S)
- Thread starter iLOVE
- Start date
wwjd_kilden
Member
Suffering is caused by sin
Let's take (over-) use of alcohol:
Sometimes our own (Getting drunk might give you a hangover)
Sometimes those around us (That annoying person who wants to fight whenever he gets drunk)
Sometimes society as a whole (Drunk drivers, medical costs, fights ...)
Let's take (over-) use of alcohol:
Sometimes our own (Getting drunk might give you a hangover)
Sometimes those around us (That annoying person who wants to fight whenever he gets drunk)
Sometimes society as a whole (Drunk drivers, medical costs, fights ...)
iLOVE
Member
Is that the reason why "Job" suffered?
wwjd_kilden
Member
No, that was to test him
BUT
the world is the way it is because of sin. It started with Adam and Eve,
if they had never sinned, and no one after them, Jb would not have suffered
iLOVE
Member
Thanks for clearing that up. You stated suffering is caused by sin in post #3.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, God can not be an enemy to the righteous (only the unrighteous). But he will be a Father to the righteous. And that means enduring punishment for wrong-doing, or enduring discipline to keep us from wrong-doing.
Like so many things, the church seems to only be able to think in black or white. But God's Punishment can be for both, the righteous and the unrighteous. For the righteous it is given as the loving care of a Father. For the unrighteous it is given for their destruction.
Suffering is self punishment, not from God, but by the consequences of ones own wrong doing. It's like Hebrews 10:26 that if we willfully sin after already having the knowledge of that sin we can not expect to crucify Christ again, but we can expect to pay the consequences of whatever that sin may bring about in our life. Does it separate us from God, no, but we need to own it and repent of it.
Wrg1405
Member
Well said. I don't think God punishes his children as such but disciplines them, if they repent then his discipline works his purposes. If they refuse then it can feel like punishment until they repent.
Our Father knows we will sin, he punished our sin on the cross but when we walk off that level path he has called us to walk on his discipline is to bring us back and if that means we will suffer for our choices he will allow it.
wwjd_kilden
Member
I still say that, It doesn't have to be ones own sin.
If the world hadn't "fallen", there would have been no need for God to test Job
Jethro Bodine
Member
God himself most certainly does punish his children.
(what Father does not?)
"19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. " (Revelation 3:19 NASB bold and underline mine)
"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him" (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB bold and underline mine)
(Depending on whether you yourself are saved determines the 'destroying' that you will endure from God for destroying his household.)
(what Father does not?)
"19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. " (Revelation 3:19 NASB bold and underline mine)
"17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him" (1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB bold and underline mine)
(Depending on whether you yourself are saved determines the 'destroying' that you will endure from God for destroying his household.)
iLOVE
Member
Was Adam and Eve tested before sin entered into the world?
JohnDB
Member
The answer is in Job.
Job was innocent. Job was a "good guy". He even offered sacrifices for possible unknown sins he or his family unknowingly committed.
Job's "friends" accused him of just about every kind of possible sin out there...and Job was innocent of all of them. Job truly feared and respected God.
In one particular passage Job asks for an advocate to plead his case before God of his good behavior and lack of guilt. (Foreshadowing of the Savior)
But at the end of the story God meets with the Men. And the end is something of a twisted ending. Job despises himself in dust, ashes and sackcloth. Job's "friends" are guilty beyond measure for their false accusations and questions and Job is needed by them to ask God for their forgiveness as God will not even listen to them.
There was nothing Job did to deserve his misery. Nothing he did to end it either.
That isn't always the case though. Cognitive dissonance is alive and well in most Christian minds. We make choices and decisions and then whine about the consequences...or even sow wild oats and then pray for crop failure. Whining to God and questioning Him about why He is punishing us when those wild oats don't have the failure we had hoped for.
Sure pain is a megaphone that something is wrong. But wisdom is the right application of knowledge. And God grants wisdom generously to those that ask. (James)
Testing by God is unique...it is to build your faith...not build God's faith in you. (God knows everything)
Probably not the answer you were looking for...but it's the truth.
Job was innocent. Job was a "good guy". He even offered sacrifices for possible unknown sins he or his family unknowingly committed.
Job's "friends" accused him of just about every kind of possible sin out there...and Job was innocent of all of them. Job truly feared and respected God.
In one particular passage Job asks for an advocate to plead his case before God of his good behavior and lack of guilt. (Foreshadowing of the Savior)
But at the end of the story God meets with the Men. And the end is something of a twisted ending. Job despises himself in dust, ashes and sackcloth. Job's "friends" are guilty beyond measure for their false accusations and questions and Job is needed by them to ask God for their forgiveness as God will not even listen to them.
There was nothing Job did to deserve his misery. Nothing he did to end it either.
That isn't always the case though. Cognitive dissonance is alive and well in most Christian minds. We make choices and decisions and then whine about the consequences...or even sow wild oats and then pray for crop failure. Whining to God and questioning Him about why He is punishing us when those wild oats don't have the failure we had hoped for.
Sure pain is a megaphone that something is wrong. But wisdom is the right application of knowledge. And God grants wisdom generously to those that ask. (James)
Testing by God is unique...it is to build your faith...not build God's faith in you. (God knows everything)
Probably not the answer you were looking for...but it's the truth.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Another foreshadow of Christ.
Suffering, righteous Job interceding for those who really are guilty and deserving of suffering.
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6 NASB)
iLOVE
Member
The Apostle Paul says it like this, "For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, so that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead:" 2 Cor. 1:8-9 NKJV
antipasta
Member
Jesus explains:
John 9:1-3 NASB - As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him."
John 9:1-3 NASB - As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him."
antipasta
Member
And if we feel tempted to blame the misfortune of others on their own sins, Jesus warns us:
Luke 13:1-5 NASB - Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:1-5 NASB - Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
smaller
Member
Short answer? Yes.
What do we see below?
2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
It is not likely whatsoever that God in Christ deals with only Paul in the above sight. But also conversely, adversely, with the other party.
Seeing only Job won't compute just as seeing only Paul won't compute.
Is it conceivable that Paul received abundant Grace/Mercy through God in Christ and the other party abundant scorn and resistance, simultaneously, by God in Christ?
Yes.
Wrg1405
Member
Ooh I'm not so sure I agree with you.
Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. 2 Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
(New Living Translation (NLT) Study Bible Notes) Peace with God does not refer to a mere feeling of peacefulness but to a real situation of peace. It is the end of hostilities between God and sinful human beings when they believe in Jesus Christ and the state of blessing and salvation that God promised his people in the end
I cannot therefore see how God can then become an enemy to the righteous. If he does then he breaks the covenant of peace established with his people.
Paul's thorn in his flesh was to keep him humble, and he acknowledged that but he did not call God his enemy. He acknowledged the reason and the fact that God would keep him.
God allowed Job to be tested not because he was his enemy but to prove satan wrong.
Yes whilst trials and tribulations may feel harsh they are not given or allowed by God as our enemy. It's for a purpose that our loving father allows it.
Jesus prayed that we may know that the Father loves us as much as he loves him.
I can't reconcile that with your thoughts on God being put enemy.
Not sure I could live with a God who one minute is our friend then the next is our enemy. There are other proclaimed Gods in this world who are like that but not my God, my father, Jesus in the flesh who died for me.
smaller
Member
Never said that is the case.
What I did say is, it is impossible to see just Paul in 2 Cor. 12:7. Therefore there are two separate and distinct and conflicting workings of God in Christ with TWO entirely different parties, Paul and the messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul.
Sorry if you can't see the distinctions.