Is the Biblical Concept of God Strictly Monotheistic or Does It Allow for a Triune Nature?

[Runningman]

Great Testimony. Have you considered seeking in prayer for God to give you the gift of Tongues.

I don't think it's quite like that. It may be called a gift, but it isn't a power that someone can activate at will like it's a party trick. God uses it when the time is right for his glory, but yes the Bible does say to seek the spiritual gifts. We are to want to have those.

Veering back a bit toward the topic a bit... sometimes people say that the spiritual gifts are what makes Jesus God and a member of the Triune Godhead. If that were so, how does that distinguish him from someone else who either is or has been anointed and empowered with the same miracles Jesus was capable of doing? Even down to a mighty work such as raising the dead, there are others in the Bible who did it too.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again "My Rock",

Relying on our own understanding can lead to a dry, intellectualized faith that lacks the vibrant power of the Spirit. Therefore, it is crucial for the Church today to embrace and cultivate the Gifts of the Spirit, ensuring that our faith remains both doctrinally sound and spiritually alive.

The problem that I have with the many that claim to have "The Gifts of the Spirit" is there is a wide range of beliefs within these various denominations. For example, possibly the largest categories would be Pentecostals and some factions of the Evangelicals and/or Baptists. On the other hand you appear to be some form of Unitarian. Also, the only Pentecostal meeting that I have ever attended was a Oneness Pentecostal Church. I was invited by a Lady and traveled a long distance in her car with her and her teenage son and daughter. The daughter was involved in interpreting the tongues pronouncement of the Pastor, but the two attempts at healing seemed to fail.

Does God pour out the Holy Spirit on any religious faction, no matter what they believe?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[My Rock]

I don't think it's quite like that. It may be called a gift, but it isn't a power that someone can activate at will like it's a party trick. God uses it when the time is right for his glory, but yes the Bible does say to seek the spiritual gifts. We are to want to have those.

1 Corinthians 14:4, Paul explains, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself." This highlights that the use of tongues in prayer is a powerful means of personal spiritual edification. When a believer prays in tongues, they are engaging in a form of communication with God that transcends human understanding, as Paul further elaborates in 1 Corinthians 14:2, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This type of prayer builds up the inner man, strengthens the spirit, and allows the believer to connect with God on a deeper, more intimate level.

Romans 8:26-27 explains how "the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." This passage reveals that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we do not know what to pray, communicating our deepest needs and burdens directly to God. By praying in tongues, the believer allows the Holy Spirit to intercede through them, aligning their prayers perfectly with God's will, even when the specific content of the prayer is unknown to their mind. This divine connection not only edifies the believer’s spirit but also ensures that their prayers are in harmony with God's purposes, drawing them closer to Him and empowering them to live out their faith with renewed strength and spiritual clarity.

Veering back a bit toward the topic a bit... sometimes people say that the spiritual gifts are what makes Jesus God and a member of the Triune Godhead. If that were so, how does that distinguish him from someone else who either is or has been anointed and empowered with the same miracles Jesus was capable of doing? Even down to a mighty work such as raising the dead, there are others in the Bible who did it too.

While believers are called to do the works of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, it is essential to understand that Jesus' works were unique in their nature and purpose. Jesus performed miracles not just as a display of divine power but as a revelation of His identity as the Son of God and the Messiah. His works were a testament to His divine nature (John 10:25, 37-38) and were fulfilled in accordance with prophetic Scripture, confirming Him as the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Furthermore, Jesus’ works were always in perfect alignment with the Father’s will, demonstrating His unique authority and mission to bring salvation to humanity.

While believers perform works through the Spirit, these works are done in the name of Jesus and under His authority. The power and ability to perform such works are derived from the believer’s union with Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not from their own inherent power. Believers act as vessels through which God’s power is manifested, always pointing back to the glory and authority of Jesus Christ. This distinction underscores the believer's dependence on Jesus and the Holy Spirit in carrying out the works that He did, ensuring that all glory goes to God alone.

 

[My Rock]

On the other hand you appear to be some form of Unitarian.

"Unitarianism are associated with the belief that Jesus was a divinely inspired moral teacher but not divine in the same sense as God the Father." Not me. Jesus is God in flesh and as God's Self Expressive Eternal Word (John 1:1) made (born/created) in flesh as the Son (John 1:14)

Does God pour out the Holy Spirit on any religious faction, no matter what they believe?

The specific beliefs and teachings of a religious faction do matter in terms of their understanding and reception of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is described as the "Spirit of truth" (John 16:13), and the work of the Spirit is to lead believers into all truth. While God's grace and the workings of the Spirit can transcend human boundaries and reach individuals in various contexts, the New Testament does not present the Holy Spirit as being poured out indiscriminately on all religious factions, regardless of their beliefs. Instead, it emphasizes the importance of correct belief in Jesus Christ and obedience to His Word Acts 2:38 ".... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" as conditions for receiving the Spirit.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again "My Rock",

While God's grace and the workings of the Spirit can transcend human boundaries and reach individuals in various contexts, the New Testament does not present the Holy Spirit as being poured out indiscriminately on all religious factions, regardless of their beliefs. Instead, it emphasizes the importance of correct belief in Jesus Christ and obedience to His Word Acts 2:38 ".... and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" as conditions for receiving the Spirit.

Possibly you would allow some of the "Holy Spirit gifts" claimed by some denominations. I have very serious reservations about any such claim, I believe the Gifts ceased soon after the days of the Apostles.

Many years ago my Baptist friend at work was involved in a division in the local Baptist Church. He had to move to another district Church. His comment to me was "THAT is NOT the Holy Spirit". I also recently referred a Baptist to a video of a Baptist preacher who in my opinion was completely out of the realm of acceptable practice with respect to the "impartation" of the Holy Spirit to other Baptist Pastors. Yet, he was in the presence of a large Baptist audience and in the presence of other Pastors and they seemed to endorse the proceedings.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[My Rock]

1 Corinthians 13:8, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away"

Highlights the enduring nature of godly love. This verse contrasts the eternal and unwavering quality of love with the temporary nature of spiritual gifts like prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. These gifts are essential for edifying the church and spreading the gospel, but they are finite and serve their intended roles within the church age.

The interpretation that "that which is perfect" refers to Christ's second coming is indeed another perspective held by some scholars and theologians. Here’s how this view fits into a detailed explanation from a Oneness Practical Symbolic Exegesis perspective:

In 1 Corinthians 13:10, Paul says, "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." This passage is situated within Paul's discourse on the nature of love and the role of spiritual gifts in the church. From this viewpoint, "that which is perfect" is often understood to refer to the second coming of Christ and the establishment of His eternal kingdom.

In this interpretation, "that which is perfect" symbolizes the ultimate fulfillment of God's redemptive plan, which will occur at Christ’s return. The second coming represents the culmination of God's work in history, when Christ will establish His kingdom in its full glory and complete the redemption of creation. At this point, the partial and temporary aspects of spiritual gifts and prophecies, which were necessary for the church's growth and guidance in the interim, will be replaced by the full and complete revelation of God's "that which is perfect" kingdom. Until then the Gifts are still in operation.

 

[Runningman]

While believers are called to do the works of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, it is essential to understand that Jesus' works were unique in their nature and purpose. Jesus performed miracles not just as a display of divine power but as a revelation of His identity as the Son of God and the Messiah. His works were a testament to His divine nature (John 10:25, 37-38) and were fulfilled in accordance with prophetic Scripture, confirming Him as the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Furthermore, Jesus’ works were always in perfect alignment with the Father’s will, demonstrating His unique authority and mission to bring salvation to humanity.

While believers perform works through the Spirit, these works are done in the name of Jesus and under His authority. The power and ability to perform such works are derived from the believer’s union with Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not from their own inherent power. Believers act as vessels through which God’s power is manifested, always pointing back to the glory and authority of Jesus Christ. This distinction underscores the believer's dependence on Jesus and the Holy Spirit in carrying out the works that He did, ensuring that all glory goes to God alone.

The way this works is that, according to Scripture, Jesus was not anointed and empowered until John's water baptism of repentance (Acts 10:27, 38, Acts 19:3-5) and that the miraculous power he wielded was not from his own power and authority. Jesus testified, saying that the works he was performing was actually the Father (God) doing the works through him (John 14:10, Acts 2:22, Acts 4:30, Acts 10:38, etc)

So the idea being conveyed here isn't that Jesus inherently had power, authority, or the ability to do anything under his own will. Rather, Jesus is the man whom God chose as His servant (Matthew 12:18) and made both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36.) So none of the things that Jesus had were already his. Even down to the very teachings, parables, lessons, and the gospel message itself; Jesus said he is a man who had to be taught the truth by God (John 8:28,40) and that it isn't that Jesus has the words of life, but rather the Father has the words of life and that is why Jesus spoke precisely as he was told (John 12:49,50)

Jesus also said he is the way, truth, and life but it's vital to understand where he got it all in the first place.

Jesus got his way from the Father (John 5:19)
Jesus got his truth from the Father (John 8:40)
Jesus got his life from the Father (John 5:26)

So you may be seeing a recurring theme here. It's that Jesus didn't inherently have anything. He also gave credit where credit is due, as did others, to the Father who Jesus said is the only true God (John 17:3.)

It really doesn't stop there.

Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead under his own power (John 2:2)
Jesus didn't ascend to heaven under his own power (Luke 24:51)
Jesus doesn't know when he's coming back (Matthew 24:36)

So on top of everything else, pretty easy to see that Jesus isn't an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God even after he was taken to heaven. They kept right on calling him a man decades after he was already taken from them. (1 Timothy 2:5)

So if someone wants to actually have the spiritual gifts they need to give the Father His exclusive glory. This is something Trinitarians generally refuse to do and why the spiritual gifts appeared to have ceased for them. Yes there are Unitarian cessationists, but the gifts are still active. I wouldn't be a Christian if it weren't so.

 

[My Rock]

The way this works is that, according to Scripture, Jesus was not anointed and empowered until John's water baptism of repentance (Acts 10:27, 38, Acts 19:3-5)

The assertion that Jesus was not anointed and empowered until John's baptism of repentance is an important consideration but needs to be understood in light of the full revelation of who Jesus is. Jesus's baptism by John marked the beginning of His public ministry and served as a symbolic anointing, but it does not imply that Jesus lacked divine power or authority before this event. Jesus is the incarnation of the one true God, fully divine and fully human. The anointing at His baptism was a public affirmation (for John, John 1:29-34) of His messianic role, as the Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, signifying the beginning of His mission to reveal the Kingdom of God (Luke 3:21-22). However, this anointing does not suggest that Jesus was merely a man empowered by God. Rather, it demonstrates that the man Christ Jesus, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9), was fulfilling all righteousness and identifying with humanity, even in the act of baptism.

and that the miraculous power he wielded was not from his own power and authority. Jesus testified, saying that the works he was performing was actually the Father (God) doing the works through him (John 14:10, Acts 2:22, Acts 4:30, Acts 10:38, etc)

The claim that the miraculous power Jesus wielded was not from His own power and authority but was the Father working through Him aligns with Jesus's own words in John 14:10, where He states, "The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." This is understood not as a division, but as an expression of the divine and human natures in Christ. Jesus, as the incarnate Word, perfectly revealed the Father because He is the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The works Jesus performed were indeed done by the power of God, but this power was intrinsic to His identity as God in the flesh. The distinction is between the divine nature and the human nature of Christ. Jesus, in His humanity, operated under the anointing and direction of the Spirit, modeling perfect obedience and dependence on God. Yet, it is crucial to recognize that this divine power was inherently His, as He was God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Thus, the miracles of Jesus reveal both His divine authority and His perfect submission to the will of God, reflecting the indivisibility of the Father and the Son in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[My Rock]

So the idea being conveyed here isn't that Jesus inherently had power, authority, or the ability to do anything under his own will.

It is crucial to recognize that Jesus Christ, as the incarnation of the one true God, inherently possesses all power and authority. Philippians 2:6-7 speaks of Jesus, "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant." This passage illustrates that Jesus, in His divine nature, had the fullness of power and authority but chose to humble Himself in the incarnation. His submission to the Father's will does not indicate a lack of inherent power but reflects His role as the God-man who perfectly exemplifies submission to the divine purpose. The power that Jesus exercised was His own, yet it was expressed in complete unity with the Father, as Jesus Himself said in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one."

Rather, Jesus is the man whom God chose as His servant (Matthew 12:18) and made both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36.)

While it is true that Jesus is presented as the chosen servant of God in passages like Matthew 12:18, it is essential to understand this within context. Jesus is not merely a man chosen by God but is God Himself manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Acts 2:36 indeed declares that God made Jesus "both Lord and Christ," but this is understood as the fulfillment of the incarnation, where God, who is Spirit, took on human form and accomplished the work of salvation. This declaration in Acts is not about Jesus being made something He was not before, but rather it affirms the recognition of His identity and mission, fully revealing who He was from the beginning as the Word made flesh (John 1:14).

So none of the things that Jesus had were already his. Even down to the very teachings, parables, lessons, and the gospel message itself; Jesus said he is a man who had to be taught the truth by God (John 8:28,40)

This perspective needs a deeper understanding of the unique nature of Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully man. In His humanity, Jesus indeed grew in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52), and He demonstrated submission to the Father’s will as a model for all believers. However, this does not negate His divine nature. Jesus’ teachings and parables were not merely learned truths but were the very expression of God’s wisdom, as He spoke with the authority of God Himself (Matthew 7:29). John 8:28, where Jesus says He does nothing of Himself but speaks as the Father taught Him, emphasizes His perfect unity and alignment with the Father's will. This does not diminish His divine nature but rather highlights His role in the incarnation, perfectly fulfilling the will of God in every aspect.

it isn't that Jesus has the words of life, but rather the Father has the words of life and that is why Jesus spoke precisely as he was told (John 12:49,50)

It is understood that Jesus, as God manifest in the flesh, inherently possesses the words of life because He is the embodiment of the Father’s will (After all He is The Self Expressive Eternal Word made Flesh). When Jesus says in John 12:49-50 that He speaks what the Father has commanded, it reflects the unity of the divine plan. Jesus, in His humanity, acted in perfect obedience to the Father's will, yet this does not imply that He lacked divine authority or knowledge. Instead, it reveals the profound mystery of the incarnation, where Jesus, fully God, operated within the limitations of His human nature while still fully embodying the divine essence. Thus, when Jesus speaks, it is God Himself speaking, making His words the ultimate source of life and truth (John 6:63).

 

[Consecrated Life]

Does it make more sense that a Monotheistic God, or a Triune God refer to Himself as "OUR" ?

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...

​

 

[My Rock]

Does it make more sense that a Monotheistic God, or a Triune God refer to Himself as "OUR" ?

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...

​

When examining why Genesis 1:26 uses a plural pronoun for God, it's essential to recognize that the Bible overwhelmingly uses singular pronouns to refer to God, reinforcing His oneness. The very next verse, Genesis 1:27, affirms this by stating, "So God created man in his own image," using singular pronouns to describe God's creative act. Similarly, Genesis 2:7 emphasizes, "And the LORD God formed man," again using the singular form. This consistency in singular language highlights the unity and indivisibility of God.

To understand the plural usage in Genesis 1:26, we must reconcile it with the singular pronouns that follow and with the nature of humanity, which is made in God's image. Humanity, regardless of its complexity, is fundamentally one person with one personality and will. This mirrors the oneness of God, who, despite His infinite nature, is one in essence and purpose.

The plural pronoun in Genesis 1:26 is often understood as God speaking in the fullness of His majesty and power, sometimes referred to as the "plurality of majesty," which emphasizes the comprehensive nature of God's being. Additionally, this plural language can be seen as God speaking with the foreknowledge of His future incarnation, where He would manifest in the flesh as Jesus Christ—the visible image of the invisible God. In this way, the plural pronoun reflects the fullness of God's plan and His ultimate self-revelation in Christ, while maintaining the consistent biblical teaching of God's absolute oneness.

 

[Runningman]

The assertion that Jesus was not anointed and empowered until John's baptism of repentance is an important consideration but needs to be understood in light of the full revelation of who Jesus is. Jesus's baptism by John marked the beginning of His public ministry and served as a symbolic anointing, but it does not imply that Jesus lacked divine power or authority before this event. Jesus is the incarnation of the one true God, fully divine and fully human. The anointing at His baptism was a public affirmation (for John, John 1:29-34) of His messianic role, as the Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, signifying the beginning of His mission to reveal the Kingdom of God (Luke 3:21-22). However, this anointing does not suggest that Jesus was merely a man empowered by God. Rather, it demonstrates that the man Christ Jesus, in whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily (Colossians 2:9), was fulfilling all righteousness and identifying with humanity, even in the act of baptism.

There are no examples of Jesus being born with the Holy Spirit or being empowered by the Holy Spirit until taking John's water baptism of repentance. The Bible states Jesus did not begin his ministry until he was thirty years old (Luke 3:23.) He began the ministry at the age of 30 because that's the time God anointed and empowered Jesus.

The claim that the miraculous power Jesus wielded was not from His own power and authority but was the Father working through Him aligns with Jesus's own words in John 14:10, where He states, "The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." This is understood not as a division, but as an expression of the divine and human natures in Christ. Jesus, as the incarnate Word, perfectly revealed the Father because He is the visible manifestation of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). The works Jesus performed were indeed done by the power of God, but this power was intrinsic to His identity as God in the flesh. The distinction is between the divine nature and the human nature of Christ. Jesus, in His humanity, operated under the anointing and direction of the Spirit, modeling perfect obedience and dependence on God. Yet, it is crucial to recognize that this divine power was inherently His, as He was God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Thus, the miracles of Jesus reveal both His divine authority and His perfect submission to the will of God, reflecting the indivisibility of the Father and the Son in the person of Jesus Christ.

As far as the Father being the one who does the works through Jesus goes, Jesus wasn't unique in that regard. In other words, the miracles that God worked through Jesus weren't an indicator that Jesus is God because others were also empowered to do the same kind of things. Jesus said in John 14:12, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." Can someone do greater works than God? Let's agree and say no, but Jesus said they can do greater works than him.

I prefer lists for ease of reading at a glance. So let me briefly show you that whatever Jesus did it wasn't something unique to him that indicated he is God:

God can give the disciples power to do greater miraculous works than Jesus (John 14:12)
Jesus and the disciples both the light of the world (John 8:12, Matthew 5:14)
God gave men power to forgive sins (Matthew 9:6-8)
God gave the Jesus and the 12 disciples power to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils. (Matthew 10:8)
Jesus and Peter both walked on water (Matthew 14:22-33)

While there is a lot more to say than that, I prefer brevity when possible and exhaustive lists aren't required to make a point anyway. So the idea that Jesus is God based on him doing miracles isn't compatible with Scripture because the Bible already says it was God working through Jesus (John 14:10, Acts 2:22, Acts 4:30, Acts 10:38, etc) and the disciples were also doing the same kind of miracles Jesus was.

Jesus isn't God, but the example of what an anointed child of God can be.

 

[Runningman]

It is crucial to recognize that Jesus Christ, as the incarnation of the one true God, inherently possesses all power and authority. Philippians 2:6-7 speaks of Jesus, "who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant." This passage illustrates that Jesus, in His divine nature, had the fullness of power and authority but chose to humble Himself in the incarnation. His submission to the Father's will does not indicate a lack of inherent power but reflects His role as the God-man who perfectly exemplifies submission to the divine purpose.

According to Scripture, Jesus was "given" or "empowered" to do the things he did so it doesn't follow that if he had to receive this power that he inherently had it in the first place. That would be strong evidence that Jesus isn't God, but rather, as what is already apparent, a normal man.

I also might offer you, the word "incarnate" or "incarnation" doesn't actually appear in the Bible, whether in the Hebrew or Greek, or any other language translation I am aware of. So for full disclosure, any interpretation that asserts Jesus was incarnated, we should be forthcoming with the fact that this is a personal interpretation and not Scripture.

The power that Jesus exercised was His own, yet it was expressed in complete unity with the Father, as Jesus Himself said in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one."

We should look at how being one applies to the Father and Jesus and how it applies to others to get an idea of how to apply it consistently.

While it's true Jesus did say that he and his Father are one, he also said in John 17:21, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." Which means to say, Jesus prayed that the disciples would be one in the same way he and God are one and that they would also be one in himself and God.

So if the disciples are one in the same way Jesus and God are then we must not assume the Peter and John are the same person, for example. However, we can understand this as them being one or united in purpose and mission or even spirit. The very oneness the disciples had with one another is the very oneness he prayed they would have with him and God.

Indeed, we the disciples can be one with God, too, as Paul also said in 1 Cor. 6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." This isn't to say that being one with God means someone is God.

While it is true that Jesus is presented as the chosen servant of God in passages like Matthew 12:18, it is essential to understand this within context. Jesus is not merely a man chosen by God but is God Himself manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

While I like the KJV, it has errors and 1 Timothy 3:16 is one of them. It most likely wasn't of any intentional misleading, but since then it has been discovered that the earliest and best manuscripts don't say "God was manifest in the flesh" and this is something that many Trinitarian theologians of standing have, though reluctantly, admitted. I will defer you to a list of Trinitarian commentaries on 1 Tim. 3:16 for further reading. I will also note, no modern Bible translates it as "God in the flesh."

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/3-16.htm

Acts 2:36 indeed declares that God made Jesus "both Lord and Christ," but this is understood as the fulfillment of the incarnation, where God, who is Spirit, took on human form and accomplished the work of salvation. This declaration in Acts is not about Jesus being made something He was not before, but rather it affirms the recognition of His identity and mission, fully revealing who He was from the beginning as the Word made flesh (John 1:14).

I would have to argue that since the word incarnation doesn't actually appear in the Bible that Jesus isn't an incarnation, but rather a human.

For example, the Bible does indeed say Jesus was "made" both Lord and Christ in Acts 2:36 and the word "made" is a verb used in the sense of someone acting on Jesus to make or cause Jesus to be Lord and Christ. Provided that "made" is a verb in aorist indicative active 3rd person singular then the subject of the verb is the one doing the action. In context of Acts 2:36 "God made Jesus Lord and Christ" would mean that Jesus isn't the prime cause, mover, or originator of his status, but rather God is.

continued...

 

[Runningman]

This perspective needs a deeper understanding of the unique nature of Jesus Christ as both fully God and fully man. In His humanity, Jesus indeed grew in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52), and He demonstrated submission to the Father’s will as a model for all believers. However, this does not negate His divine nature. Jesus’ teachings and parables were not merely learned truths but were the very expression of God’s wisdom, as He spoke with the authority of God Himself (Matthew 7:29). John 8:28, where Jesus says He does nothing of Himself but speaks as the Father taught Him, emphasizes His perfect unity and alignment with the Father's will. This does not diminish His divine nature but rather highlights His role in the incarnation, perfectly fulfilling the will of God in every aspect.

I would suggest we take a step back and examine some of the claims that support your premise. You said Jesus is both fully God and fully man, but the Bible also does not ever directly say this. It seems some of the support evidence for your claim is that because Jesus was able to receive from God the truth that that is what makes Jesus God. However, this actually means Jesus is a prophet (Matthew 21:11, Acts 3:22) like Moses was a prophet. Moses and Jesus, among others, both received the truth from God. Since Jesus is a prophet like Moses and Moses isn't God, then Jesus also isn't God. God speaks through the prophets and Jesus in the same ways (Hebrews 1:1,2)

It is understood that Jesus, as God manifest in the flesh, inherently possesses the words of life because He is the embodiment of the Father’s will (After all He is The Self Expressive Eternal Word made Flesh). When Jesus says in John 12:49-50 that He speaks what the Father has commanded, it reflects the unity of the divine plan. Jesus, in His humanity, acted in perfect obedience to the Father's will, yet this does not imply that He lacked divine authority or knowledge. Instead, it reveals the profound mystery of the incarnation, where Jesus, fully God, operated within the limitations of His human nature while still fully embodying the divine essence. Thus, when Jesus speaks, it is God Himself speaking, making His words the ultimate source of life and truth (John 6:63).

I would suggest we be silent where the Bible is silent. There is nothing about Jesus being an incarnation of God, inherently possessing divine knowledge and power. Jesus admitted that his words are not his words, bur rather the Fathers words. In Trinitarianism, the Son is not the Father, therefore Jesus repeated what he was told to say, not make it up by himself. This is how prophets get their messages from God. You would have to experience it to understand what he's describing.

John 14
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Does it make more sense that a Monotheistic God, or a Triune God refer to Himself as "OUR" ?

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...

​

To understand the plural usage in Genesis 1:26, we must reconcile it with the singular pronouns that follow and with the nature of humanity, which is made in God's image. Humanity, regardless of its complexity, is fundamentally one person with one personality and will. This mirrors the oneness of God, who, despite His infinite nature, is one in essence and purpose.

How could this Jesus who is the Christ have not been included in the "Our" mentioned given His own testimony of what He witnessed before the creation of man ?

 

[My Rock]

There are no examples of Jesus being born with the Holy Spirit or being empowered by the Holy Spirit until taking John's water baptism of repentance.

It is essential to understand that the incarnation itself represents the fullness of God's presence in human form. The birth of Jesus was not the mere arrival of a man but the miraculous event where "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14). The angel Gabriel announced to Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her and that the holy child born of her would be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). This indicates that Jesus, even from conception, was filled with the Holy Spirit because He was the very embodiment of God. The narrative of Jesus's life must be viewed through the lens of His divine identity as God manifest in the flesh. The idea that Jesus was not born with the Holy Spirit overlooks the profound truth of the incarnation, where the fullness of the Godhead was dwelling bodily from the very beginning of His earthly life (Colossians 2:9). The baptism by John did not impart the Holy Spirit to Jesus but served as a public declaration of His messianic role and the beginning of His ministry.

The Bible states Jesus did not begin his ministry until he was thirty years old (Luke 3:23.) He began the ministry at the age of 30 because that's the time God anointed and empowered Jesus.

Jesus beginning His ministry at the age of thirty is symbolically significant in fulfilling the requirements of the Levitical priesthood, where priests began their service at the age of thirty (Numbers 4:3). This symbolizes that Jesus is our Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14), who was not merely empowered at His baptism but had come to fulfill the law and bring in a new covenant. The anointing and empowering at His baptism were not to impart something Jesus lacked but to publicly affirm His identity and mission as the Messiah to those who witnessed it, such as John the Baptist (John 1:31-34). This moment signified the transition from the preparation (John came to prepare the Way) to the active ministry of the Messiah, revealing the Kingdom of God. Jesus, fully divine and fully human, was already endowed with all authority and power as God incarnate. His baptism marked the divine timing for the public commencement of His redemptive work, not the beginning of His divine empowerment.

As far as the Father being the one who does the works through Jesus goes, Jesus wasn't unique in that regard. In other words, the miracles that God worked through Jesus weren't an indicator that Jesus is God because others were also empowered to do the same kind of things.

While it's true that God has worked miracles through other individuals, Jesus’s works were not merely signs of God's power but a direct revelation of His identity. In John 14:10, Jesus emphasizes that the Father dwells in Him, not merely as an external source of power but as an intrinsic reality of His divine nature. This is distinct from the way others were used by God, for Jesus is the very Word made flesh (John 1:14). His works were not just acts of divine power; they were manifestations of God Himself, revealing His nature and purpose to humanity. Therefore, the miracles of Jesus, unlike those performed by others, were a direct expression of His divine identity as God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

Jesus said in John 14:12, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." Can someone do greater works than God? Let's agree and say no, but Jesus said they can do greater works than him.

This statement must be understood within the broader context of Jesus' mission. The "greater works" that believers would do are not about surpassing the nature of Christ's divinity but rather about the scope and reach of the gospel after Jesus' ascension. Jesus, in His earthly ministry, was limited to a specific time and place, but after His resurrection and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the Church would carry the gospel to the ends of the earth. The "greater works" signify the global impact of the gospel and the expansion of God's kingdom through the collective body of believers, empowered by the same Spirit that was in Christ. This does not diminish Jesus' divinity but highlights the continued work of God through His people, reflecting the unity and inseparability of the Father and the Son in the mission of redemption.

 

[My Rock]

I also might offer you, the word "incarnate" or "incarnation" doesn't actually appear in the Bible, whether in the Hebrew or Greek, or any other language translation I am aware of. So for full disclosure, any interpretation that asserts Jesus was incarnated, we should be forthcoming with the fact that this is a personal interpretation and not Scripture.

in·car·nate

verb
past tense: incarnated; past participle: incarnated
/inˈkärˌnāt,ˈinˌkärˌnāt/

1. embody or represent (a deity or spirit) in human form.
   "the idea that God incarnates himself in man.
   • put (an idea or other abstract concept) into concrete form. This idea is clearly included in the word manifest.
     
     
     

 

[My Rock]

How could this Jesus who is the Christ have not been included in the "Our" mentioned given His own testimony of what He witnessed before the creation of man ?

My post clearly explains it. You would have to take it up with God and His Word, because the very next verse and 2:7 and Isaiah 44:24 said God did it in the singular. No they, them, us, our, or we.

Genesis 1:27,2:7, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Isaiah 44:24, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

[Runningman]

in·car·nate

verb
past tense: incarnated; past participle: incarnated
/inˈkärˌnāt,ˈinˌkärˌnāt/

1. embody or represent (a deity or spirit) in human form.
   "the idea that God incarnates himself in man.
   • put (an idea or other abstract concept) into concrete form. This idea is clearly included in the word manifest.
     
     

yes and it doesn't exist in word or description in Scripture.

 

[Consecrated Life]

How could this Jesus who is the Christ have not been included in the "Our" mentioned given His own testimony of what He witnessed before the creation of man ?

My post clearly explains it. You would have to take it up with God and His Word, because the very next verse and 2:7 and Isaiah 44:24 said God did it in the singular. No they, them, us, our, or we.

Genesis 1:27,2:7, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Isaiah 44:24, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

So is your rejection of Jesus's eternal Word specifically detailing HIs pre-Adam, pre-incarnate heavenly witness of Almighty power setting the stage for His future coming to us based in your belief that Jesus is mistaken ? Delusional ? Or a liar ?