Is the Biblical Concept of God Strictly Monotheistic or Does It Allow for a Triune Nature?

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My Rock said:
I have been trying in other forums to get anyone to answer straightly if the can work the Trinity doctrine into these passages in a truthful Biblical way:

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me."
Isaiah 45:21-22 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."
Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him."
Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else."
2 Samuel 7:22 "Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
1 Chronicles 17:20 "O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me."
Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
Mark 12:32 "And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he."
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Romans 3:30 "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith."
1 Corinthians 8:4 "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one."
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
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God is not triune in nature but in persons
Monotheistic “one God” in three divine persons

As the athanasius creed states:

The father is God
The son is God
the Spirit is God

But there are not three God’s but only one God!

The father is Lord
The son is Lord
the Spirit is Lord

But there are not three Lord’s but one Lord!

Lk 1:43 how is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me.

By no stretch of the imagination can an unborn child in His mothers womb be Elizabeth’s Lord, unless He is the Lord God almighty!

The anti-trinitarians always end up with sabellian modalism which was condemned by the apostolic councils in the early church!

Thanks
 
My Rock said:
he question of whether the biblical concept of God is strictly monotheistic or allows for a Triune nature is a significant theological debate that has persisted for centuries. On one hand, the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism. On the other hand, passages such as Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," have been interpreted by Trinitarians to suggest a Triune nature of God. How do we reconcile these seemingly divergent viewpoints? Does the New Testament reveal a complexity in the nature of God that the Old Testament does not explicitly address, or is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?
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Father: Matthew 5:16.
Son: Matthew 3:17
Spirit: Matthew 3:11

Triune God. Not mono.
 
My Rock said:
he question of whether the biblical concept of God is strictly monotheistic or allows for a Triune nature is a significant theological debate that has persisted for centuries. On one hand, the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one," which seems to affirm a strict monotheism. On the other hand, passages such as Matthew 28:19, where Jesus commands the disciples to baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," have been interpreted by Trinitarians to suggest a Triune nature of God. How do we reconcile these seemingly divergent viewpoints? Does the New Testament reveal a complexity in the nature of God that the Old Testament does not explicitly address, or is the doctrine of the Trinity an extra biblical development?
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It's a great question and has been asked lots of times. My own personal opinion: the plural word for "God" originates from a polytheistic culture. God uses the language of the world to convey the fact that He alone is the one true God.

The Bible does not appear to speak of a "3-headed God," as the detractors of Trinitarianism say. Rather, it indicates that God has appeared in theophanies which, by definition, is lower down from infinite Deity.

So can God appear in pluralities? Obviously, the Scriptures have shown Him as such, particularly as He has appeared in Jesus, a man.
 
Free said:
It literally means three in one—“tri,” three; “unus,” one. In regards to God, it has always referred to God as Trinity.
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Trinity of persons not Gods
One god monotheism three persons
 
Rocks OP implies that triune is three gods as opposed to monotheism

Jesus Christ is God rev 1:8
 
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

How can Both be God (oneness) if He sits at the right hand

Oneness modelism was never orthodox but condemned heresy in the early church by authority of Jesus Christ in apostolic council binding on all Christians

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Oneness?
 
Tri-- anything is no longer One. God is indivisible which means he can't be divided Internally or Externally. He made the world through His Self Expressive Eternal Word not a pre-existent Son. We read Genesis creation and everything was spoken into existence. Not created by either a fleshly/or incorporeal body of the Son.
 
My Rock said:
Tri-- anything is no longer One.
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Is the U.S. one nation?

My Rock said:
God is indivisible which means he can't be divided Internally or Externally.
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The Trinity doesn’t divide God.

My Rock said:
He made the world through His Self Expressive Eternal Word not a pre-existent Son. We read Genesis creation and everything was spoken into existence.
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The Word is the eternally preexisting Son, as John 1:1-18 shows. This is supported by many passages, including 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2, 10-12, and Rev 19:13.

My Rock said:
Not created by either a fleshly/or incorporeal body of the Son.
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What does this have to do with the Trinity?
 
Free said:
Is the U.S. one nation?
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What does that have anything to do with theology?
Free said:
The Trinity doesn’t divide God.
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If you say that the Father is not the Son. It's division whether internally or externally.
Free said:
The Word is the eternally preexisting Son, as John 1:1-18 shows. This is supported by many passages, including 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2, 10-12, and Rev 19:13.
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The statement that most use "the Father is not the Son" inherently creates division within the Godhead, which contradicts the fundamental belief in God's absolute oneness. This point highlights the core difference between Oneness of the Bible and Trinitarianism, which is the perception of how God exists and manifests. Let’s break down why, from a Oneness standpoint, affirming that the Father and the Son are distinct persons results in division:

Oneness of the Bible: God is Indivisible​

God is one being, without distinction of persons. God is viewed as the eternal Spirit who manifests in different ways. The Father refers to the eternal, invisible, omnipresent Spirit, and the Son refers to the manifestation of that Spirit in the flesh, Jesus Christ. These are not separate beings or persons, but different modes or manifestations of the same one God.

  • Isaiah 44:6: "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
  • Isaiah 43:11: “I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.”
  • Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD."
These scriptures emphasize the singular nature of God in both essence and being. Therefore, to assert that the Father is not the Son creates theological division by introducing multiple centers of consciousness or persons within God.

Trinitarianism Division of Persons​

In Trinitarian doctrine, God is described as three distinct persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are said to be coequal, coeternal, and consubstantial. While Trinitarians affirm that these persons are united in one essence, they still recognize distinctions in their roles and relationships. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and so on.

The Trinitarian approach inherently creates three centers of identity within the Godhead, which, is seen as dividing God into separate entities. Even if Trinitarianism claims unity of essence, the distinctions between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as persons introduces a form of division that undermines God’s absolute oneness.
  • For example, the Trinitarian formula often recites: "The Father sends the Son," or "The Son prays to the Father," and "The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son." These relational dynamics imply distinct personalities and roles that are not merely modes of expression but separate persons within the Godhead.

Oneness: Manifestations, Not Persons​

In contrast, Oneness of God, the terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not refer to distinct persons but to different manifestations of the one God in different capacities:

  • The Father is God in His transcendent role as Creator and Sustainer of all.
  • The Son is God manifested in flesh—the human nature of Jesus Christ, which began in time through the incarnation.
  • The Holy Spirit is God in His immanent work, particularly in the indwelling and empowering of believers.
Because of this understanding, the statement “the Father is not the Son” would be meaningless in Oneness of God, since both refer to the same one God manifesting in different ways or in different roles.

Jesus Christ as the Fullness of God​

Oneness of God stresses that Jesus Christ is the full manifestation of the Father in human form, not a separate divine person. Colossians 2:9 states, "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." This verse emphasizes that Jesus embodies the totality of God—He is fully divine and fully human, with no division between the Father and Son.

Isaiah 9:6 prophecies of Jesus as "The everlasting Father" and "Mighty God," showing that Jesus is not distinct from the Father but is, in fact, the Father manifested in the flesh. This further strengthens the oneness argument that Jesus, as the Son, is not a separate person from the Father but is God Himself.

Jesus’ Prayers and Dependence on the Father​

One common question is: If the Father and Son are not distinct persons, how do we explain Jesus praying to the Father or expressing dependence on Him?

From a Oneness of God perspective, these actions are understood through the lens of the dual nature of Christ:

  • As a human, Jesus had to pray and express dependence on God the Father because He was fully human.
  • But as God, He was also fully divine, capable of performing miracles, forgiving sins, and having all the authority of the Father, because He was the Father manifested in the flesh.
This means that Jesus’ prayers were the expression of His human nature communicating with God, not the communication between two distinct divine persons. Oneness of God maintains that there is no separation or division within God; the human and divine natures of Jesus exist in perfect unity.

Unity of God, Not Division​

By asserting that "the Father is not the Son," the Trinitarian view introduces a functional division between the Father and Son, even if they claim an ontological unity. In Oneness of God, this is seen as a division in God’s being, which goes against the biblical teaching of God’s absolute unity.

  • 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." This verse does not imply that the Father and Jesus are distinct persons, but it shows that God, through His manifestation in Jesus Christ, is working both as Creator and Redeemer.

The Danger of Division in Trinitarianism​

From a One God standpoint, saying that "the Father is not the Son" automatically introduces division within God, which is inconsistent with the Bible’s teaching of God’s absolute oneness. Oneness of God affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons but different manifestations of the one true God, who is indivisibly and perfectly unified. This ensures that there is no division within God’s being (internally or externally), and it preserves the biblical declaration that God is one.
Free said:
What does this have to do with the Trinity?
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If the Son existed in heaven before being born on earth by a virgin, he had to either be in a pre-existent glorified body or a corporeal one. Which he was neither.
 
My Rock said:
Tri-- anything is no longer One. God is indivisible which means he can't be divided Internally or Externally. He made the world through His Self Expressive Eternal Word not a pre-existent Son. We read Genesis creation and everything was spoken into existence. Not created by either a fleshly/or incorporeal body of the Son.
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It is cos there is the divine nature or essence and the persons of God

Three persons but only one divine nature or essence
 
Runningman said:
I take it you are either disagreeing with some of the things I have posted or have not read them. This will now be my third refute of the version of 1 Timothy 3:16 that contains "God was manifest in the flesh..."

I will begin with simply stating the fact that no modern Bible translation, to the best of my knowledge, that has been produced within the past 100-150 years contains "God was manifest in the flesh..." but rather contains something like "He [Jesus Christ] was manifest in the flesh..."

Most scholars attribute the error of "God was manifest in the flesh..." to a scribal error, gracefully calling it accidental, though some believe it could have very well been a deliberate alteration to the manuscript to bolster Trinitarian dogma; these aren't anti-Trinitarians saying these things - no. These are people of reputation, standing, with credentials in theology who have reputations at stake and nothing to gain theologically by rightly confessing that 1 Timothy 3:16 has been altered.

How do they know? Because one of the metrics for determining authenticity is the age of the manuscript. The idea being that if a manuscript is old and they find numerous copies of them all saying "He [Jesus Christ] was manifest in the flesh..." and not "God was manifest in the flesh..." then it stands to reason that the belief circulating in the earliest church, the time in closest proximity to when the first copies were made, then statistical likelihood of it being altered is lower.

That being said, they actually found the earliest and best manuscripts that prove such. Below are some links to the proof where there is nothing being said about God in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Codex_Alexandrinus_1_Tim_3.JPG

Codex_Alexandrinus_1_Tim_3a.JPG

Codex_Alexandrinus_1_Tim_3b.JPG


For further reading, you can see many Trinitarians using the above proof to debunk the word "God" being in 1 Timothy 3:16: https://textus-receptus.com/wiki/1_Timothy_3:16

I also recommend these commentaries. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/3-16.htm because a lot of people provide proof that the KJV's version is wrong.
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Greetings Runningman,
I wish to jump in here briefly to address your assertions concerning 1 Timothy 3:16.
It is only western scholarship whichbasserts that the older a manuscript is, the more accurate it is to the original Scripture in represents. Authenticity is not determined by age in Orthodoxy. It is determined by Sacred Tradition through Appstolic Succession.
I suggest to you to consider the fact that copies of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas are older than the Codex Alexandrinus. Does that make them authentically written by Thomas the Apostle?
Furthermore, the Codex Alexandeinus contains the so called Apocrypha, as well as 1st and 2nd Clement as Holy Scripture. Are you prepared to accept the "deuterocanon" as authentic Scripture as well as 1st and 2nd Clement?
 
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When ever scripture opposes our microscopic sects pet doctrines we say its not scripture
Baptism
Mk 16:16
Matt 28:19
Trinity
1 Jn 5
Now 1 tim 3:16

The KJV has it!

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Thks
 
Runningman said:
Just going to speak about your premises rather than go after all of the points.

1. I stated earlier, the word "incarnation" does not exist in the Bible. When John 1:14 says " the Word was made flesh" it doesn't not mean the "Word" incarnated. It means that the "Word" caused flesh to come into being. In other words, Jesus didn't exist until God created him.

2. While it's true Jesus' water baptism revealed him as the Messiah, the Bible doesn't say Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit from his conception. The Holy Spirit didn't descend upon and rest on Jesus until his water baptism.

3. You seemed to admit, whether knowingly or unknowingly, that Jesus was empowered at his baptism. Therefore, he was not empowered before this. The evidence is there is no record of Jesus doing miracles (in the canonized Bible that is) before the age of 30 years old.

4. You also mentioned Jesus' fulfilling the law and bringing in the New Covenant, but I request your clarification. Are you saying Jesus did this at his water baptism or are you alluding to a different context?

5. Yes, the miracles Jesus did were examples of divine power that came from a different person (the Father) than himself. So Jesus wasn't the source of his miracle power as already shown in a previously reply.

6. I also showed that 1 Tim. 3:16's "God was manifested in the flesh" is rejected by the Trinitarian scholarly community and doesn't find a home in modern Bibles. If you can show otherwise, that would help.

7. Spiritual gifts come from the Father, not Jesus, according to James 1:17, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

p.s. - not that I have a problem with it, but are you, in part, generating some of these responses using AI? Okay with me, but just proof read it first. AI can pump out responses fast, but the quality and originality is sometimes lacking. Just something to keep in mind.
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Runningman,
Number 1 of your list is a nonsensical interpretation. The verse clearly states that the Word BECAME Flesh, and dwelt amongst us. It does not say the Word "created" flesh and dwell amongst us.
As for also your challenge in other posts concerning what the Lord Jesus was doing before the world was, He says Himself that He was with the Father, sharing in His Glory
 
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