Is The "he" of Daniel 9:27 Our Lord Jesus?

[precepts]

Sounds like whole wheat communion bread to me. :verysad Go figure.

 

[Vic C.]

Sounds like whole wheat communion bread to me. :verysad Go figure.

LOL, what in the world are you referring to, Pre?

 

[precepts]

Vic's

LOL, what in the world are you referring to, Pre

Say, is your "post a reply" acting like mine is? My last two posts have been hindered, I hope not purposely. As for the comment, it's an insider joke.

 

[Vic C.]

Actually, I find when I submit, it takes a little more time than normal, but when I click on "post a reply' the speed seems normal. I don't know about hindering. I'm the sole acting Mod of this section of the site and I'm not hindering anything... unless people do not behave themselves.

As for the comment, since I didn't get the joke, I'm not one of the inside parties, nor do I care to be.

 

[archangel_300]

Sounds like whole wheat communion bread to me. :verysad Go figure.

I'm not an insider either but I did find this comment to be hilarious.

 

[precepts]

Vic's

Actually, I find when I submit, it takes a little more time than normal, but when I click on "post a reply' the speed seems normal. I don't know about hindering. I'm the sole acting Mod of this section of the site and I'm not hindering anything... unless people do not behave themselves.

Is that a confession? Just kidding, but really, this is the only site that I'm having problems with today. Go figure. :crazy

Vic's

As for the comment, since I didn't get the joke, I'm not one of the inside parties, nor do I care to me.

I guess it went right over your head.

 

[Vic C.]

I guess it went right over your head.

I'm sure it did since I'm just shy of 5' 6".

 

[precepts]

Stay up.

 

[veteran]

veteran's

Sorry, but someone who thinks the following events are already past probably need to go back to school and learn to read...

Like i said, where the carcass is........... You will know them by there fruits.

Your rebuttal is scrap, showing you don't even understand enough Scripture to be able to provide a reasonable argument. And YES, wheresoever the "carcase" is, or spiritually DEAD, that's where the fake eagles will be gathered. Your mocking that carcase idea my Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24:28 and the end of Luke 17 shows your mocking Him, not me. The LORD GOD often uses one's own mocking against theirselves.

 

[veteran]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


The Bible almost appears to be saying that the forces (abomination) of apostasy are currently at work but are being restrained. When the restraining forces are taken out of the way then the abomination of desolation will be clearly manifest. There almost seems to be a connection here between these passages of scripture and Revelation 20 where Satan is bound but then loosed. There also appears to be a connection here and the fact that Christ mentions in Matthew 24 when you "see" the abominination of desolation indicating that Satanic forces will be clearly seen at work standing in the "holy place".

If you could find someone who has never read Paul's message in 2 Thess.2, would they think Paul was talking about a specific false prophet coming to do those things when reading that, or many false prophets doing that?

If you address only verses 1 through 4 first, what tense comes forth?

When Paul gives the info in these verses,

II Th 2:6-7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(KJV)

Is he not still talking about when a certain "he" is to be revealed? The only way to interpret that to mean many is by applying a preconceived notion before heeding the tense of the Scripture Paul gave there. It's a pop tradition that tries to make in the plural sense. Even the "he" who now letteth is given in the singular tense.

 

[veteran]

No because the Bible is a spiritual book and ones eyes can only be open if God opens them.
No amount of intelligence will be able to unlock the passages of scripture.

BUT if your eyes are open, having a logical mind helps.
Newton makes sense whereas many theories I've seen on this forum don't hold up.

Yes, I certainly agree that it is best to allow God's Holy Writ to interpret itself but putting time gaps in places where they shouldn't is not.

I see God's Word as not only spiritual, but historical too, and even scientific. It's about His Truth, wherever that falls.

I didn't put a gap of time between the 69th and 70th weeks in the prophecy, our Lord did. And the reason why is because of the events of the prophecy that final "one week" is about, which links with much prophecy in God's Word about the end of this world.

To NOT see that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 being about the end of this world is to throw away the rest of the events given in Daniel 11 & 12 about that prophecy, including our Lord's reference to it within Matt.24 and Mark 13, which are chapters about the end of this world. That's not even to mention how events in our Lord's Book of Revelation directly relates to it also.

 

[veteran]

Your Isaiah 61:1-2/Luke 4/Zech 9:9-10 examples don't work because in each case they have already been fulfilled. I know you don't see it, but you're not really looking, are you? If you saw how it was fulfilled it would challenge all the work you're so proud of.

No, the days of vengeance of The Lord part in the last part of Isaiah 61:2 has yet to be fulfilled today. That's why our Lord Jesus closed the Book of Isaiah and didn't read that part at His first coming (per Luke 4). It's not difficult at all to see either, that our Lord's bodily return has yet to happen today.

Likewise with Zech.9:10, that has yet to occur today also.

Now to say Christ's second coming is already past today, is to say what about Christ's second coming? It would imply you believe Christ's second coming was history, and that the resurrection of the dead is history and is not going to happen in the future. It would imply you have accepted today's world on earth as Christ's Salvation as His Kingdom. And of course that kind of doctrine is non-Biblical, not written, and can only be an idea dreamed up one's mind. Quite obvious that thinking is false, for one only need look at the wickedness that's still going on upon this earth today.

 

[veteran]

Oh goodness!

Vet, I like you but sometimes your logic and rationale is sometimes, well, irrational.

All that is beside the fact that sacrifices ending in 70 A.D. does not fit the timeline of the "one week" prophecy, nor complete the events in Dan.9:24 which is for Israel and Jerusalem.

It's a very minor parenthesis compared to the gaping hole in modern views and it fits quite well into the Messianic prophecy given Daniel in Ch. 9. It single-handedly pinpoints for us the coming of Messiah and His role as The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, almost to the very day, if it were possible.

That alone is priceless when witnessing to Jews and other nonbelievers. It's right there, in their sacred Hebrew text. It points them to when their Messiah was to arrive. Take this old interpretation away and you leave a gaping hole in Messianic prophecy. But you seems to be more obsessed with a coming antichrist instead. That, I cannot help you with.

What exactly, are you trying to infer? The historical events to the end of the 69th week covers up to the time of Christ's FIRST coming, and His death on the cross, and the destruction of Jerusalem. It's that amount that should be a good witness to non-believing Jews about Messiah's first coming to die on the cross. None of that fulfillment have I ever denied. But many non-believing Jews still deny that, even after witnessing that to them.

Yet the final "one week" period, the 70th week, both the Jews and us Christians should understand that as a warning for the end, because that's the type of EVENTS it is linked to, and especially involves Jerusalem and Israel.

Why is there such a disregard here on this thread for the events given AFTER that Daniel 9 chapter, like what is given in Daniel 11 & 12 which link to that final "one week"? And, how that links to the reason our Lord Jesus quoted from Daniel in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 chapters about the "abomination of desolation", and also more detail on the Daniel events our Lord gave in Revelation?

Before I forget, here is a definition of a parenthesis that fits Daniel's writing:

a remark or passage that departs from the theme of a discourse

merriam-webster

[quote:2swzsn3s]So has that new view you've taken told you there's no need to watch for the false one who comes PRIOR to our Lord Jesus' coming? Our Lord warned us very well to expect a false one coming working great wonders and signs on the earth before His coming. Even Apostle Paul showed it in that same 1 Thess.5 chapter those who don't watch will be drunken in the night, deceived by that false one into falling away.

I really don't know why you keep calling this view new. The only conclusion I come up with is you haven't taken the time to really study end times, it's many positions and their history. Plus, if you have read the body of my many posts on the site, overall, you'd know I am quite aware of the lying signs and wonders, both in the past and in our present and our future as well.

[/quote:2swzsn3s]

I was talking about whatever later view you had come to with leaving the previous doctrines you inferred you came out of. As far as my study of the endtimes, it's per God's Word as written. There's no need to study the various seminary positions if one stays in God's Word as written. Stopping Bible study of the 70 weeks prophecy at the end of Daniel 9 is not a good sign of one who has studied end time prophecy to any degree.

I can see how thinking the 70 weeks prophecy as being completed can cause one to wrongly think there will be no false one, i.e., antichrist, coming in the end of days to set himself up as God like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, and our Lord showed in Revelation, and in the Book of Daniel, and in His Olivet Discourse. Maybe the view you hold on the Daniel prophecy hasn't blinded you to all that later NT prophecy about the false one coming, but I know it has others.

Regarding 1 Thess.5, Christ's protection is guranteed only IF we remain sober and on watch like Paul showed there in 1 Thess.5. Paul gave that warning to believers on our Lord Jesus. Do you not understand what that signifies when our Lord gives His servants events to be looking for leading up to His coming, so as to be prepared? That time of "Peace and safety" the deceived will be declaring is a specific event we are to note. It's not the same thing as knowing that our Lord Jesus is coming some day, and that's all a believer needs to know.

 

[precepts]

veteran's

Your rebuttal is scrap, showing you don't even understand enough Scripture to be able to provide a reasonable argument. And YES, wheresoever the "carcase" is, or spiritually DEAD, that's where the fake eagles will be gathered. Your mocking that carcase idea my Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24:28 and the end of Luke 17 shows your mocking Him, not me. The LORD GOD often uses one's own mocking against theirselves.

Spoken like a true christian.

 

[Sinthesis]

Your Isaiah 61:1-2/Luke 4/Zech 9:9-10 examples don't work because in each case they have already been fulfilled. I know you don't see it, but you're not really looking, are you? If you saw how it was fulfilled it would challenge all the work you're so proud of.

No, the days of vengeance of The Lord part in the last part of Isaiah 61:2 has yet to be fulfilled today. That's why our Lord Jesus closed the Book of Isaiah and didn't read that part at His first coming (per Luke 4). It's not difficult at all to see either, that our Lord's bodily return has yet to happen today.

Likewise with Zech.9:10, that has yet to occur today also.

Now to say Christ's second coming is already past today, is to say what about Christ's second coming? It would imply you believe Christ's second coming was history, and that the resurrection of the dead is history and is not going to happen in the future. It would imply you have accepted today's world on earth as Christ's Salvation as His Kingdom. And of course that kind of doctrine is non-Biblical, not written, and can only be an idea dreamed up one's mind. Quite obvious that thinking is false, for one only need look at the wickedness that's still going on upon this earth today.

In Luke 4, Jesus reads from the beginning of Isaiah 61 to proclaim that the promised Messiah is here. Christ stops reading where He does because at that point in time the Jews had not yet rejected Him, and the remaining verses of Isaiah 61 concern the consequences of that coming rejection.

For example; "and the day of vengeance of our God", prophesies the destruction of AD70 after Israel's rejection of Christ. Jesus alludes to this in Luke 4:24. Also; "to comfort all that mourn" is about Jesus' sending the Holy Spirit to Christians beginning at Pentecost.

The rest of Isaiah 61 describes the continuing expansion of Christianity as the 'Mountain that grows to fill the whole earth'.

Zechariah 9:10 is about God throwing down the obsolete knowledge(horse) and doctrine(chariot) of Apostate Israel in order to give Christianity the room to grow and fill the gentile world. This process continues even today.

 

[veteran]

In Luke 4, Jesus reads from the beginning of Isaiah 61 to proclaim that the promised Messiah is here. Christ stops reading where He does because at that point in time the Jews had not yet rejected Him, and the remaining verses of Isaiah 61 concern the consequences of that coming rejection.

For example; "and the day of vengeance of our God", prophesies the destruction of AD70 after Israel's rejection of Christ. Jesus alludes to this in Luke 4:24. Also; "to comfort all that mourn" is about Jesus' sending the Holy Spirit to Christians beginning at Pentecost.

The rest of Isaiah 61 describes the continuing expansion of Christianity as the 'Mountain that grows to fill the whole earth'.

Zechariah 9:10 is about God throwing down the obsolete knowledge(horse) and doctrine(chariot) of Apostate Israel in order to give Christianity the room to grow and fill the gentile world. This process continues even today.

The "days of vengeance" of Luke 21:22 is about Christ's second coming. That Luke 21 chapter is another version of Christ's Olivet Discourse, the same subject as Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Those events were NOT fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jerusalem. Yet the 70 A.D. events do serve as an ensample for the future final destruction, the "sudden destruction" Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5. Knowing that is simple, because the Matt.24 and Mark 13 versions include Christ's coming to gather His saints, i.e., the end of this world timing. That is not a spiritual coming, but Christ's bodily coming and the resurrection.

The Isaiah 61 Scripture after verse 2 is about events AFTER Christ's coming to establish His Zion on earth:

Isa 61:3-11
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

These events have never happened in the holy land since God removed Israel back in OT history of 2 KIngs. It has not even been fulfilled by the returning Jews today. The planting of The LORD there involves those in Him who are saved, not those who refuse Him still.

7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.(KJV)

What you've done is heed doctrines you've gotten elsewhere instead of reading Isaiah 61:3 forward in its simplicity.


The same for the Zechariah 9 example, for it has future events after Christ's future coming:

Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
(KJV)

That's about Christ ruling, His dominion being upon the earth in the future. That's after the battle of Armageddon when the battle bow shall be cut off. It's then that His dominion will be from sea to sea, and from the River even to the ends of the earth. That River is the River of the waters of life of Rev.22 and Ezek.47, which begins in His Milennium reign, and will be on earth where Jerusalem is.

Zech 9:14-17
14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon His land.
17 For how great is His goodness, and how great is His beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.
(KJV)

 

[veteran]

veteran's

Your rebuttal is scrap, showing you don't even understand enough Scripture to be able to provide a reasonable argument. And YES, wheresoever the "carcase" is, or spiritually DEAD, that's where the fake eagles will be gathered. Your mocking that carcase idea my Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24:28 and the end of Luke 17 shows your mocking Him, not me. The LORD GOD often uses one's own mocking against theirselves.

Spoken like a true christian.

I am a true Christian, not afraid at all to make a stand against the robbers of His people.

 

[precepts]

veteran's
[quote:931hlyg3]precepts wrote:
[quote:931hlyg3]veteran's

Your rebuttal is scrap, showing you don't even understand enough Scripture to be able to provide a reasonable argument. And YES, wheresoever the "carcase" is, or spiritually DEAD, that's where the fake eagles will be gathered. Your mocking that carcase idea my Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24:28 and the end of Luke 17 shows your mocking Him, not me. The LORD GOD often uses one's own mocking against theirselves.

Spoken like a true christian. [/quote:931hlyg3]

I am a true Christian, not afraid at all to make a stand against the robbers of His people.[/quote:931hlyg3] Whose people, the anti-christ? Talk is cheap.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey people,

You all know by now I don't mind a little derailing if it's done in fun. But taking personal stabs at each other isn't Christian-like or fun... plus I will have to uphold the TOS eventually if it gets too heavy. I really don't want to do that, so... :help me out here, ok?

 

[adam332]

I understand that prophecy can skip around. All one needs to do is read Rev. to figure that out.

I may be wrong but I can't recall a prophecy that mentions an specific amount of time,(like 490 yrs), and puts a gap of time between the already specified number.

Prophecy skipping around? Definitely.
Prophecy which gives a specific time, then adds another indeterminate amount of time before the "counter" starts again? That's a unique one.

Anyone have a precedent of such a thing? Sorry, I couldn't find one.

Adam