Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[Jethro Bodine]

Most who hold up the law, do so for their own self justifications

How can you tell if someone is 'holding up' the law by faith in Christ, or by the desire to be declared righteous by it? I personally choose not to pass such a judgment and give our Messianic law keeping brethren the benefit of the doubt that they are doing it out of their faith and love for God.

And in this matter we should understand that the LAW is against us...

The law is only against us when we sin and don't rely on God's forgiveness in Christ for removal of that sin. The law is only against the unbeliever, not the believer.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

The net effect of which is to not keep the law.

One example of mis-interpreting the law of Moses is using it to condemn the guiltless.

1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!" 3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. Matthew 12:1-7

 

[smaller]

How can you tell if someone is 'holding up' the law by faith in Christ, or by the desire to be declared righteous by it? I personally choose not to pass such a judgment and give our Messianic law keeping brethren the benefit of the doubt that they are doing it out of their faith and love for God.

I believe every Word of God remains living and active in the form of Jesus Christ in and by His Spirit.

If His Spirit abides in us, then does every Word abide within us.

The law is only against us when we sin and don't rely on God's forgiveness in Christ for removal of that sin. The law is only against the unbeliever, not the believer.

The adversarial relationship with the law remains upon every one of us because we are all factually sinners. There is no avoiding this conflict, which leads us to conclude that as it pertains to our bodies, they are DEAD because of SIN. There is little use to avoid this particular EDGE of the SWORD of the Word of God. That dead bodies condition isn't going to change or be sinless by obedience to the letter of the law as that can not happen.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Some of the law of Moses was made obsolete and no longer needed by the work of Christ. The mistake the church made was to think that means the law was abolished. Hardly. Jesus did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it's requirements. So well in fact that there is no further action required in regard to the literal first covenant worship, cleanliness, separation, and penal laws that get fulfilled by his work on the cross.

I don't find where Jesus or Paul or the Apostles said "some" of the law was made obsolete.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

Which covenant do you say is the "first covenant"?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That dead bodies condition isn't going to change or be sinless by obedience to the letter of the law as that can not happen.

The mistake is thinking this somehow means the law was abolished. But as it is, faith upholds, not abolishes the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't find where Jesus or Paul or the Apostles said "some" of the law was made obsolete.

Made obsolete in regard to their literal fulfillment.

The author of Hebrews explains the end of the literal fulfillment of various first covenant laws for temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. That doesn't mean they were abolished, as we understand abolished. They were set aside, not abolished. And set aside because they were fulfilled. But the church says they got abolished.

 

[smaller]

The mistake is thinking this somehow means the law was abolished. But as it is, faith upholds, not abolishes the law.

I agree. The question is 'to what end?'

There is no avoiding the factual proof and conclusion of the law. The scriptures have already made this conclusion. That all are under sin. There is no honestly avoiding that conclusion derived from the law and the law is upheld to confirm that conclusion.

While we live by the spirit, we still do so within the conclusions of the law, that the dead body remains under sin and dies because of sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree. The question is 'to what end?'

To what end? To whatever end the law is not fulfilled. For example, the law of Passover is completely and utterly fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction through faith in Christ, such that no further action is required on our behalf. But the law of 'do not murder', for example, remains to be literally fulfilled by us, but even that is also fulfilled by us through our faith in Christ--faith expressing itself in love for others (Galatians 5:6 NIV).

 

[smaller]

To what end? To whatever end the law is not fulfilled. For example, the law of Passover is completely and utterly fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction through faith in Christ, such that no further action is required on our behalf. But the law of 'do not murder', for example, remains to be literally fulfilled by us, but even that is also fulfilled through our faith in Christ--faith expressing itself in love for others (Galatians 5:6 NIV).

Paul transcribed every command in the entire Bible in a few short sentences in Romans 13:8-10 and on that transcription we are to live.

Nevertheless not murdering does not make one any less the sinner, concluded by that law or any other, as it pertains to the law of sin in the flesh.

It's difficult territory, to understand and take on the fact of sin and it's consequences which are not avoided by 'good behavior.'

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul transcribed every command in the entire Bible in a few short sentences in Romans 13:8-10 and on that transcription we are to live.

True enough. But that doesn't mean all of the law gets fulfilled by us literally. Some laws do, some don't. The ones that don't get fulfilled literally by us don't because they are already fulfilled by Christ's work on the cross.

Nevertheless not murdering does not make one any less the sinner, concluded by that law or any other, as it pertains to the law of sin in the flesh.

No, but for those in Christ it means not being under the law in regard to 'do not murder'.

It's difficult territory, to understand and take on the fact of sin and it's consequences which are not avoided by 'good behavior.'

I disagree. The Christian who performs the good behavior of 'not stealing', or 'not murdering (hating)' does in fact avoid being under the condemnation of the law in regard to those things. The Christian has already been released from the condemnation of the law through the blood of Christ, not by 'not murdering', or 'not stealing', but if he goes back to his sin and does not seek the blood that justifies--in effect denying the Lord who bought him--he will in fact remain in the condemnation of the law his sin has brought him (back) into.

 

[smaller]

True enough. But that doesn't mean all of the law gets fulfilled by us literally. Some laws do, some don't. The ones that don't get fulfilled literally by us don't because they are already fulfilled by Christ's work on the cross.

There are a couple things in play here. One, the conclusions of law do not change. Even if one or all does not murder, one or all still remain sinners under the conclusion of law.

Nevertheless, by The Spirit, in Love, we fulfill all the requests of the law as to Spiritual Intent, while remaining condemned as sinners in the flesh.

That's why it's difficult territory.

No, but for those in Christ it means not being under the law in regard to 'do not murder'.

The act or not of murder won't change the conclusion of being a sinner for anyone.

I disagree. The Christian who performs the good behavior of 'not stealing', or 'not murdering (hating)' does in fact avoid being under the condemnation of the law in regard to those things.

They have merely avoided the last stage of sin, which is external action. The progression of sin originates in thought. Evil thought defiles us all. And evil is sin in any form, even thought form. All males for example are more than likely adulterers in heart via evil thought and that thought is proof of internal evil/sin. See Matt. 5:28 for an easy example. The same can be said of murder. The origination point of all murder is in mind and heart long before the deed is ever set forth. One can be a murderer in mind, an adulterer in mind, a thief in mind. And all of this without doing an actual deed of any of it.

That is why the law makes its DEADLY conclusion and proof that all have sin, are sinners and the body is factually DEAD because of sin. There is no avoiding these matters by avoiding the external actions of sin.

The Christian has already been released from the condemnation of the law through the blood of Christ, but if he goes back to his sin and does not seek the blood that justifies--in effect denying the Lord--he will in fact remain in the condemnation of the law his sin has brought him (back) into.

No one stops being a sinner. The notion of 'going back to sin' or 'continue in sin' never happens because no one stopped being a factual sinner to start with.

No one avoids being a sinner, period. Religious christians who think they've avoided the conclusion of sin under moral theology external actions are simply in another form of deception and denial of their own status as being sinners in any case of measures. Moral theology is best deployed to keep the external society from disintegration and avoid the law of the jungle, but it doesn't stop or change the fact of being sinners for any person. And I'd add any exercises of rituals to the matters as well.

None of that changes any persons factual sinner status as determined by scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are a couple things in play here. One, the conclusions of law do not change. Even if one or all does not murder, one or all still remain sinners under the conclusion of law.

The forgiveness of Christ when you sin releases you from the conclusion of the law. That's what mercy and grace is all about.

Nevertheless, by The Spirit, in Love, we fulfill all the requests of the law as to Spiritual Intent, while remaining condemned as sinners in the flesh.

That's why it's difficult territory.

I don't think it's so difficult.
If you are not fulfilling the requests of the law by the Spirit through love, and do not seek the forgiveness of Christ, you are condemned by the law. If you seek the forgiveness of Christ you are no longer a sinner under the law. That transgression has been removed. You have in that moment no more sin that the law can condemn.

The act or not of murder won't change the conclusion of being a sinner for anyone.

As a Christian, when I 'do not murder', or 'do not steal' I am not a sinner. And even if I do sin, the forgiveness of Christ, if I seek it, restores me to non-sinner status. The law can only condemn the person who does not have the forgiveness of Christ. The law does not condemn forgiven sin.

They have merely avoided the last stage of sin, which is external action. The progression of sin originates in thought. Evil thought defiles us all. And evil is sin in any form, even thought form.

Thoughts can be forgiven for the Christian too, just as actual sinful actions can be. Everything I've been saying applies to the sin of thoughts, too.

That is why the law makes its DEADLY conclusion and proof that all have sin, are sinners and the body is factually DEAD because of sin. There is no avoiding these matters by avoiding the external actions of sin.

When I am forgiven in Christ and I don't sin, or when I do sin and seek God's forgiveness I am in no way shape or form a sinner. I am the righteousness of God.

No one stops being a sinner. The notion of 'going back to sin' or 'continue in sin' never happens because no one stopped being a factual sinner to start with.

Then the righteousness of Christ is a farce.

Just because you can still sin doesn't make you a sinner. The Christian is a sinner when they sin.

No one avoids being a sinner, period. Religious christians who think they've avoided the conclusion of sin under moral theology external actions are simply in another form of deception and denial of their own status as being sinners in any case of measures.

The forgiveness of God is what avoids the conclusion of the law. That's why everything you're saying only applies to unbelievers, not believers--even believers who sin--trusting in the forgiveness of God.

Moral theology is best deployed to keep the external society from disintegration and avoid the law of the jungle, but it doesn't stop or change the fact of being sinners for any person. And I'd add any exercises of rituals to the matters as well.

When I don't sin I am in fact not a sinner. For the forgiven Christian, by definition you have to sin to be a sinner. The lost are the ones who are sinners through and through. Christians have to sin, and then not seek God's forgiveness, to be labeled a sinner. Being able to sin, but not sinning, does not make the Christian a sinner. A forgiven saint has no sin held to his account by which the law is energized against him. He has to sin again to have sin that makes him a sinner.

 

[smaller]

The forgiveness of Christ when you sin releases you from the conclusion of the law. That's what mercy and grace is all about.

Forgiveness, mercy and grace doesn't ever translate to being sinless nor does it avoid the conclusions of law, that being all proven sinners.

I don't think it's so difficult.
If you are not fulfilling the requests of the law by the Spirit through love, and do not seek the forgiveness of Christ, you are condemned by the law.

See previous. Whatever we do or don't do, we remain doing or not doing as sinners. That conclusion of law never changes for any flesh man.

The Work of Christ and the work of His Word of law are the same. They both condemned sin in the flesh, one and the same.

If you seek the forgiveness of Christ you are no longer a sinner under the law.

Funny. And no. No one becomes sinless, period. It's just an unfortunate conclusion.

That transgression has been removed. You have in that moment no more sin that the law can condemn.

Christian religious people like to have this particular aspect of themselves, that of being and remaining sinners and having evil defiling thoughts dodged and assuaged by various methods. The facts however don't change for any believer.

As a Christian, when I 'do not murder', or 'do not steal' I am not a sinner.

Here's an inside picture of what a real sinner is:

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts,

It doesn't say maybe. It doesn't say it might happen. To gauge whether this is true or not any believer can simply look inside their own mind and heart and arrive at one of 2 possible conclusions. An honest conclusion or a lying conclusion.

And even if I do sin, the forgiveness of Christ, if I seek it, restores me to non-sinner status. The law can only condemn the person who does not have the forgiveness of Christ. The law does not condemn forgiven sin. Thoughts can be forgiven for the Christian too, just as actual sinful actions can be. Everything I've been saying applies to the sin of thoughts, too.
When I am forgiven in Christ and I don't sin, or when I do sin and seek God's forgiveness I am in no way shape or form a sinner. I am the righteousness of God. Then the righteousness of Christ is a farce. Just because you can still sin doesn't make you a sinner. The Christian is a sinner when they sin. The forgiveness of God is what avoids the conclusion of the law. That's why everything you're saying only applies to unbelievers, not believers--even believers who sin--trusting in the forgiveness of God.
When I don't sin I am in fact not a sinner. For the forgiven Christian, by definition you have to sin to be a sinner. The lost are the ones who are sinners through and through. Christians have to sin, and then not seek God's forgiveness, to be labeled a sinner. Being able to sin, but not sinning, does not make the Christian a sinner. A forgiven saint has no sin held to his account by which the law is energized against him. He has to sin again to have sin that makes him a sinner.

And therein resides the proof internal deception.

 

[ezrider]

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

If I go into an art gallery, I generally see the painting as just pictures. And while I enjoy the artists painting and consider what it means to me, I do not understand nor do I appreciate the qualities that make it a fine piece of art. I do not know what distinguished it from any other ordinary painting. To me its just another picture.

While the Bible is the word of God, you will never begin to appreciate it or to fully understand it as you should until you can look into the Bible and know thyself as one who has already been judged.

 

[JLB]

Made obsolete in regard to their literal fulfillment.

The author of Hebrews explains the end of the literal fulfillment of various first covenant laws for temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. That doesn't mean they were abolished, as we understand abolished. They were set aside, not abolished. And set aside because they were fulfilled. But the church says they got abolished.

Let's be honest, if we are to discover the truth of this subject.

Let's not make up things that are not scriptural.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...

Which covenant do you say is the "first covenant"?


The "first" covenant was made obsolete.


Not part of this first covenant, but the covenant was made obsolete.

So you don't try an insinuate that the "Church" or "the Protestant's", OR "Grace Preachers" have somehow how made this first covenant obsolete, let's be honest.

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete...


Let's really and truly ask, Who is this verse saying, teaching, making plain and clear for all to see, made the first covenant O-B-S-O-L-E-T-E!

If we are honest and truly desire the truth we can say without any reservation, God Himself is the One who has made this first covenant OBSOLETE.



JLB

 

[Eugene]

What is the truth? Is the Law of God as revealed in the Old Testament done away with – obsolete and terminated – obliterated and nullified by God’s grace?
If so, then why did Jesus Christ declare, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law . . . I came not to destroy but to FULFILL” Matt.5:17, 18. He added, “For assuredly, I say to yoy, till haven and earth pass away, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (v.18). Are heaven and earth still around? If so, then the Law of God is still in existence, also!

http://www.triumphpro.com/law-and-the-covenants.pdf

The law killed, continues to do its job on those under its effect, and is not the means of attaining or retaining God’s glorious gift of salvation.

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2 Cor 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

The law shows man’s ineptness of keeping the law; only Jesus did, and pronounced death upon all subject to the ministration of death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
AND
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

The power of sin in the flesh working in adversity to the law remains. This factual adverse relationship does NOT can NOT go away.

We all take the sting of physical death because of the presence of indwelling sin therein:

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The presence of indwelling sin always reacts in resisting fashions to the LAW.

Paul himself served this LAW. He terms it the law of sin.

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

It is upon this ground we 'account' or 'reckon' ourselves DEAD to sin.

The law will continue it's adversarial relationship with indwelling sin regardless of our external actions.

Paul concluded this matter here in Romans 7. I don't see him painting himself with any rosy scenarios about the reality of evil present with him and indwelling sin that he interestingly terms NO LONGER I twice in Romans 7.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This shows us that TWO CONFLICTS remained with Paul. On the one hand he served the law of God, but in the flesh, he also served the law of sin. And therefore he concluded himself to be in a factual wretched condition. A wretched man with indwelling sin that continually resisted Gods law, even while he upheld and served it in his MIND.

Even when, by the Spirit, we LOVE, we do so with the conflicts of sin remaining within us all.

Paul termed this conflict EVIL PRESENT with him when he desired to do good.

That is the reality of every believer to this day.

If we make conclusions that are in conflict with Paul's facts and say we do not have EVIL PRESENT with us, we have been DECEIVED by that EVIL PRESENT and been made a liar by it.

From here we can observe other interesting matters. But the facts are interesting to establish first to learn anything about overcoming this perpetual conflict. Denial is not a legitimate path of an overcomer. It just leads us to other actions of evil present, which are lies and hypocrisy, making even more of a captive to indwelling sin.

Christ is EXPOSURE, not COVER UP.

 

[Deborah13]

The net effect of which is to not keep the law.



The net effect of which is to keep the law, not destroy/abolish it.



Some of the law of Moses was made obsolete and no longer needed by the work of Christ. The mistake the church made was to think that means the law was abolished. Hardly. Jesus did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it's requirements. So well in fact that there is no further action required in regard to the literal first covenant worship, cleanliness, separation, and penal laws that get fulfilled by his work on the cross.

This is how I understand you.....
You keep in insisting that Jesus destroyed the Law of Moses, the old covenant. I don't believe He did that.
Please hear James.
Jas 2:10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one point , he hath become guilty of all;

Jesus did not destroy the old covanant (the Law of Moses). He didn't do it violence. He didn't tear it apart.
When you say that He made part of it obsolete imo, you do it violence. You tear it apart and decide for yourself what parts are obsolete and which ones are not.

 

[Deborah13]

To what end? To whatever end the law is not fulfilled. For example, the law of Passover is completely and utterly fulfilled to God's complete and total satisfaction through faith in Christ, such that no further action is required on our behalf. But the law of 'do not murder', for example, remains to be literally fulfilled by us, but even that is also fulfilled by us through our faith in Christ--faith expressing itself in love for others (Galatians 5:6 NIV).

'do not murder' was already established as a law of God before the old covenant (Law of Moses) was in effect. Cain/Abel

 

[smaller]

'do not murder' was already established as a law of God before the old covenant (Law of Moses) was in effect. Cain/Abel

I might even see it before that:

John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

We know for a fact that the THIEF of Gods Word was in the Garden with Adam and Eve in the form of the tempter, the deceiver, that serpent, SATAN.

And we see 'his actions' therein, inclusive of KILLING them with SIN.