Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

Worth the repeat...

If one is under the law, kosher is not a choice. But if one is under grace kosher is a choice. They are in opposition to each other. One cannot put new wine in an old wine skin. The old wine skin will break and both will be lost. Therefore, the old wine skin must be set aside, the only thing it is good for is old wine.

Worth the repeat.

 

[smaller]

The 'covenants' old and new and the law are much easier to understand when we see what happened to the law, the Words of God in the Old Testament.

The original Word was given to imperfect men. To flesh men. To imperfect men.

In the course of time, at the proper time so to speak the Living Words of God became flesh in the form of Jesus Christ. Those Words of the O.T. were really His to begin with. Every Word of Him was contained in flesh, in bodily form, in the form of the Giver of same, The Word.

It is there that we see the passing of the old and the making of the new, still contained, but now Perfectly contained in human form.

Hebrews points us to this matter:

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The law of the O.T. changed...as did the Priesthood. . . just follow the dots to where it went...

...In Him.

We also have to follow where He subsequently went. That Living Law was nailed to a cross, died, and was resurrected.

When He sent/sends His Spirit into us, now where did 'every Word' of God go?

Yep. Closer to home than we perceive.

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

We may 'deny' the Words of the O.T. but if we follow the dots, we might see that they all landed within us regardless of any denials. It's just a matter of perspective, that the nature of the Word has transitioned from delivery to imperfect flesh men, to containment in a Perfect Man, The Word made flesh dwelling among us. Died, resurrected, Spirit sent.

It's a hard thing to comprehend sometimes, ain't it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 13:8 To no one owe anything, except to love one another; for he who is loving the other--law he hath fulfilled,
Rom 13:9 for, `Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony, Thou shalt not covet;' and if there is any other command, in this word it is summed up, in this: `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;'
Rom 13:10 the love to the neighbour doth work no ill; the love, therefore, is the fulness of law.

Based on this passage you quoted here in Romans, when you have faith in Christ and it expresses itself in love towards others, have you abolished the law of Moses, or upheld it? Does faith in Christ expressed in love for others fulfill the law, or abolish/nullify/destroy it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think the biggest reason the new covenant is a better covenant than the old is because men could break the old one but men can't break the new one. We're in Christ but He is in the new covenant with His Father. Neither one of them are going to break it.

Hebrews says it's better because it is a better Priest and Sacrifice. It explains how the worshiper is changed in this New Covenant by this better ministry. Something the old covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice could not do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please share with us the scripture that states "Christ allows the disappearing of jots and tittles of the law".

You prolly know where the references are concerning the things you listed here:

The Levitical Priesthood is no longer.

The Temple and animal sacrifices are no longer.

Sabbaths and new moons observance are not required.

Food laws are not required.

and on and on and on....

Since I'm not in disagreement with these I'm not really following the point you want to make.

Christ's death is the fulfillment that allows the 'disappearing' (not the abolishing) of things from the law.

 

[JLB]

Based on this passage you quoted here in Romans, when you have faith in Christ and it expresses itself in love towards others, have you abolished the law of Moses, or upheld it? Does faith in Christ expressed in love for others fulfill the law, or abolish/nullify/destroy it?

You seem to be the only one stuck on the word destroy or abolish.

I don't know how one would even have the power to destroy or abolish the law except God himself.

And we certainly know He is the one who has made it obsolete.

That expression was Rabbinical language that meant to rightly or wrongly interpret the law.

We know that the Priest used the law for their own gain and to condemn Jesus, which was not the intent behind the law.


Romans 3:31 teaches us that faith upholds, or establishes the law.

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:29-31

That word establish carries the meaning of balance or uphold as to equal in value in a scale.

Strong's Number: 2476

to set or place in a balance

1. to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)

The idea here is that faith and the law counter balance each other, even though they are different, the have a common denominator which is obedience.


Without obedience faith is dead.

The law requires obedience to do all that is written it or be under a curse.

Obedience is the common weight that balances both the law and faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

You prolly know where the references are concerning the things you listed here:

No sir, Im sorry I don't.

The only reference to "jots and tittles" that Jesus made was this one -


For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18


This states just exactly the opposite of what you stated.

Jesus said that nothing shall be removed from the law until it has been fulfilled.


Since we know that pretty much everything has been removed, like the Levitical Priesthood, Food laws, Sabbath requirements, feast day observance... and the fact that God Himself has made it obsolete, then the whole law is no longer required to do or keep.

No where have I found Jesus saying that parts of it have disappeared.

I do find that it is all or nothing.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul provided us some entry points to deal with the law that are extremely fascinating, and shows that they do apply, but not in the way of 'surface scratching.'

Here for example Paul takes on a relatively obscure O.T. law:

1 Corinthians 9:
8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Paul in the above example takes on that obscure law that would be entirely meaningless today to any of us not farming or using oxen. And turns the entire understanding of that same law into something quite entirely marvelous and was assuredly NOT written until Paul wrote it! WHO can see that? This shows us that within the law are shadows of other meanings that are meant to be delved into that have nothing to do with anything in the fleshly senses as it would appear on the surface.

The hows and whys of how Paul 'got to' his understanding will remain a mystery to many who do not follow his steps on how he dug this meaning out of such scriptures when it's not even written as Paul says. But there are paths to follow with Paul that will show how he got there. It's just not an easy place to get to.

Paul employed this 'spiritual to spiritual' methodology in many places. And those provide certain spiritual guidelines and correlations to seriously STUDY. The O.T. can provide a lifetime of discovery by following Paul's methods or 'openers' he used and shows us. And it leaves thousands of dissections still remaining on the table.

How in the world for example did Paul derive the O.C and the N.C. from Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Sarah's slave handmaiden Hagar and her son Ishmael? It's one of the most incredible pieces of work that Paul put together there in Gal. 4. It's amazing. Who would have ever thought that those O.T. figures contained those types of SHADOWS?

The law and the O.T. has much much more to offer any serious students of the Word. The surface laws are just bait to chase out flesh men from the field and tie them up in endless dispute.

Food for spiritual thought.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You quote scripture where Paul is explaining to the Jews...
Rom 7:3 so, then, the husband being alive, an adulteress she shall be called if she may become another man's; and if the husband may die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, having become another man's.
Rom 7:4 So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another's, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;
Rom 7:6 and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.

Paul is telling them that the law is dead and therefore we are also dead to the law.

We are dead to the power of the law to keep us bound to old husband 'sinful flesh'. Read it.
Obviously, Paul is not telling us the believer does not have to fulfill and uphold the law because sinful flesh is now dead. With sinful flesh now dead we can uphold the law, not destroy it--just as Paul says faith in Christ expressed in love for others does.

If the law was still in effect we would have to do it, literally because that is what the law demands.

What you are referring to is if the law were still in effect as a covenant--and if we were seeking to be justified by that law--then we must do all the law, literally. The law is not in effect that way in this New Covenant. The law is in effect in that it gets upheld by faith in Christ, not abolished or nullified by faith in Christ.

Just how does one eat and wear kosher by the spirit?

Unclean foods signify intimate 'fellowship' with unclean people and things that contaminate the people of God and make them unfit for fellowship with God and other believers.

I think I am literally suppose to obey God and love my neighbor.

...Unless you can think of a way to love others without actually loving them, lol.

Some laws, like sacrifice for sin, don't have a literal obligation anymore in this New Covenant. Some laws, like 'do not steal' obviously do. Hopefully this can help you see how stupid it is to try and make all the law of Moses literal. But nonetheless--literal or not--faith in Christ satisfies, not abolishes the law.

If one is under the law, kosher is not a choice. But if one is under grace kosher is a choice. They are in opposition to each other. One cannot put new wine in an old wine skin. The old wine skin will break and both will be lost. Therefore, the old wine skin must be set aside, the only thing it is good for is old wine.

This would have meaning if the argument was that we are under the law of Moses in regard to it's literal fulfillment, which we are not. We uphold and fulfill the requirements of the law when we have faith in Christ, and when that faith finds expression in love for others. That may mean either a literal, or a not so literal keeping of various laws in the law of Moses, but a fulfilling--not an abolishing--of the law nonetheless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No sir, Im sorry I don't.

You made the list, lol!

Don't you know where that list comes from in the Bible?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do find that it is all or nothing.

Show me where and I'll remind you once again the context that you are ignoring in which it is necessary to keep all of the law, literally.

 

[ezrider]

Why do you continue in this folly of debating what you think the law declares. Professing themselves to be wise, they make of themselves a fool.


Have you not heard what the Law declares to you? You are Guilty, and guilty of all of it.





How can you hear what the law declares to you, and how can you hear the word of God when you sit in judgement over it?

 

[Deborah13]

We are dead to the power of the law to keep us bound to old husband 'sinful flesh'. Read it.
Obviously, Paul is not telling us the believer does not have to fulfill and uphold the law because sinful flesh is now dead. With sinful flesh now dead we can uphold the law, not destroy it--just as Paul says faith in Christ expressed in love for others does.



What you are referring to is if the law were still in effect as a covenant--and if we were seeking to be justified by that law--then we must do all the law, literally. The law is not in effect that way in this New Covenant. The law is in effect in that it gets upheld by faith in Christ, not abolished or nullified by faith in Christ.


Unclean foods signify intimate 'fellowship' with unclean people and things that contaminate the people of God and make them unfit for fellowship with God and other believers.


...Unless you can think of a way to love others without actually loving them, lol.

Some laws, like sacrifice for sin, don't have a literal obligation anymore in this New Covenant. Some laws, like 'do not steal' obviously do. Hopefully this can help you see how stupid it is to try and make all the law of Moses literal. But nonetheless--literal or not--faith in Christ satisfies, not abolishes the law.



This would have meaning if the argument was that we are under the law of Moses in regard to it's literal fulfillment, which we are not. We uphold and fulfill the requirements of the law when we have faith in Christ, and when that faith finds expression in love for others. That may mean either a literal, or a not so literal keeping of various laws in the law of Moses, but a fulfilling--not an abolishing--of the law nonetheless.

Sorry Jethro, I have run out of time for the next few days. I can only squeeze in the Matthew Bible Study thread until after the 25th. But I will try to get back to this after that.
May the Lord Bless you and yours.

 

[Deborah13]

Why do you continue in this folly of debating what you think the law declares. Professing themselves to be wise, they make of themselves a fool.


Have you not heard what the Law declares to you? You are Guilty, and guilty of all of it.





How can you hear what the law declares to you, and how can you hear the word of God when you sit in judgement over it?

YUP!

 

[JLB]

You made the list, lol!

Don't you know where that list comes from in the Bible?

?

 

[JLB]

We are dead to the power of the law to keep us bound to old husband 'sinful flesh'. Read it.
Obviously, Paul is not telling us the believer does not have to fulfill and uphold the law because sinful flesh is now dead. With sinful flesh now dead we can uphold the law, not destroy it--just as Paul says faith in Christ expressed in love for others does.

Since when are we married to our flesh?

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4

It was The Lord who died, it was Jesus who was raised from the dead.

The Lord is the word (law) who became flesh.

It was Jesus who was raised from the dead and has a resurrected body.

The Lord called Himself Israel's Husband.

Those who know the law [the children of Israel] know this as truth.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Romans 7:1


31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31:31-32


Paul is using parabolic imagery to convey this truth about those who were under the law being redeemed from the law.

The Husband who gave the law to the children of Israel, became flesh and died, and with that death the children of Israel are free to be married to the One who was raised from the dead.

You were never married to your own body.

Your body was never resurrected from the dead.

Your are still wearing the same sinful body that you were born with.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


I will give you a hint; Him in this scripture does not refer to you.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Have you not heard what the Law declares to you? You are Guilty, and guilty of all of it.

No.
I've not murdered anyone yet. Don't have the t-shirt for that one yet.

But because I have violated other points of the law I am a law breaker.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since when are we married to our flesh?

If you are in Christ you are no longer married to sinful flesh. In Christ flesh dies. And where one of the marriage partners has died the marriage ends, and the marriage contract that enforced that union can no longer do that. So, being free from that first marriage to sinful flesh we can now be joined in marital union to Christ and come into obedience to that marital authority. And the contract that enforces that union is the Holy Spirit.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? Romans 7:1

Yes, the law only has the authority to make us submit to sinful flesh as long as sinful flesh is still alive. But in Christ sinful flesh dies. That death removes the authority of the law to keep us bound in obedience to a husband who is no longer alive. That frees us up to be married to another--Jesus Christ--and to bear fruit to that husband.

 

[ezrider]

No.
I've not murdered anyone yet. Don't have the t-shirt for that one yet.

But because I have violated other points of the law I am a law breaker.

Ah, so you have never been angry with you brother. .
Edited violation 2.4

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

f you are in Christ you are no longer married to sinful flesh. In Christ flesh dies. And where one of the marriage partners has died the marriage ends, and the marriage contract that enforced that union can no longer do that. So, being free from that first marriage to sinful flesh we can now be joined in marital union to Christ and come into obedience to that marital authority. And the contract that enforces that union is the Holy Spirit.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. Jeremiah 31-32


We were never "married" to our sinful flesh.

We were born with our sinful flesh.

The law was nailed to the cross with the Body of Christ.

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:11-14


The it in verse 14 contains all the handwriting of requirements.

The it in verse 14 has been taken out of the way.

The it in verse 14 is singular but represents all of the handwriting of requirements.

The it in verse 14 is what was nailed to the cross.

The it in verse 14 was wiped out on the Cross.

The it in verse 14 has been made obsolete by God Himself.


The Lord Himself, Israels Husband, who gave the law to Israel,died on the Cross, and with Him the law also was nailed to the cross, that Israel would be redeemed from the law and free to be married to another, Him who was raised from the dead, that they may serve in the newness of the Spirit, not the oldness of the letter.



JLB