Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

You obviously don't know the law very well. I have pointed out previously that some laws only apply to certain groups. People who were not members of those groups were never required to follow them. That verse you quoted, which seems to be the only commandment you know, because it's the one you quote again and again, was meant for judges. When a person committed a crime, he was to be taken before a court and sentenced. Commandments detailing punishments were for the courts to follow, not just the average man on the street. We have laws today that detail punishment for the crime they are about. In some countries, some crimes carry the death penalty, but if you see such a crime being committed, you don't have the right to kill that person. It has to be decided by a court. I am not a judge on a Torah court. Therefore, I don't sentence anyone to death.

If you're going to discuss this, at least try to know what you're talking about.

The TOG​

Torah Court?


32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." Numbers 15:32-35


...those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.


Does your congregation obey this law?


How many times have you informed your leaders, of a person who violated the Sabbath, so your congregation could stone them to death?


I don't don't seem to have recalled reading anywhere in the New Testament where this was practiced.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Christ is the reality of what those things in the law of Moses pointed to.
JLB

Oh look! We agree!

The law didn't pass away then did it? We should be able to see that The Word (including the Word/Law of God) became flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[JLB]

I said rape wasn't mentioned, not that it couldn't be read into or that it wasn't implied by other things. I was replying to the reasoning that says that since the dietary rules aren't specifically mentioned as being still valid in the New Testmanet, they are no longer valid. Using that same logic, the commandment against rape isn't valid either, since rape isn't specifially mentioned. But now you and JLB say that it's enough that rape is implied for the commandment to still be valid. Then why isn't it enough that the dietary rules are also implied for them to be still valid? Three out of four of the commandments mentioned in Acts 15 were dietary rules, thereby implying that the dietary rules are still in effect. James says that whoever violates one commandment is guilty of violating the whole law. Wouldn't the "whole law" include the dietary rules?

If you demand a specific mention of a law, then do so consistently. If you do, you will find that there is nothing wrong with rape according to the New Testament. If you say that the implication of a law is enough, then do that consistently. If you do, you will find that the dietary rules are still valid. If you sometimes demand a specific mention of something and other times say that the implication is enough, then you are selectively picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow.

The TOG​

That's the point.


The law of Moses required that a person who was under the law do all the law and continue to do all the law of be cursed.

Now under the New Covenant, with Jesus as the Mediator, the law has changed, because the priesthood has changed.

Under the New Covenant we are empowered by God's Spirit as priest's, so that each of us can know God.

Not so under the law. The only priest's were the Levites.

Paul said we are to judge amongst ourselves.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 1 Corinthians 6:1-5

If you sometimes demand a specific mention of something and other times say that the implication is enough, then you are selectively picking and choosing which commandments you want to follow.

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19

and again -

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean....
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.


Paul understood and taught us this from the words of Jesus Christ.

...thus purifying all foods...Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Oh look! We agree!

The law didn't pass away then did it? We should be able to see that The Word (including the Word/Law of God) became flesh and dwelt among us.

Yes the law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

The very thing has occurred, fulfillment of the law, in order for things to pass from the law.

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

Jesus became the embodiment of the law, the Word became flesh.

That flesh which the law became, was nailed to the cross, being crucified, it was wiped out and taken out of the way.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14


JLB

 

[smaller]

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19

and again -

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean....
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Paul understood and taught us this from the words of Jesus Christ.

...thus purifying all foods...Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure.

JLB

Paul was just as clear that if someone THOUGHT that eating (presumably pork) was a sin, then to them IT IS. And they and WE should respect the fact of their convictions.

 

[smaller]

Yes the law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

Becoming The Word made flesh and executing external rituals or ceremonial enactments are 2 entirely different sights.

The Law changed. How did the Law Change? The Word became flesh.

The very thing has occurred, fulfillment of the law, in order for things to pass from the law.

Nothing passed from the Law. Not one jot or tittle of the Law was LOST when The Word became flesh.

That flesh which the law became, was nailed to the cross, being crucified, it was wiped out and taken out of the way.

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

JLB

The Word OF LAW became flesh still condemned sin in sinful flesh regardless. Jesus wasn't made as an excuse for sin and evil, ever. There is a very secure promise of Divine Judgment attached to sin and evil that remains.

God is every bit as much against evil and sin in flesh or resurrection as He was prior. That never changed or wavered.

 

[stovebolts]

Paul was just as clear that if someone THOUGHT that eating (presumably pork) was a sin, then to them IT IS. And they and WE should respect the fact of their convictions.

Exactly. Paul doesn't seem to mind Jewish customs. He only seems to mind when they are being forced on somebody else. In the book of Romans, he is speaking to Gentiles in a time where Jews are moving back into Rome. Even the Jewish Christians. Paul never forces his freedom upon the Jewish Christians, and I believe he is trying to teach his Gentile Brothers in Christ to respect the customs and culture of his Jewish Brothers in Christ.

 

[smaller]

Exactly. Paul doesn't seem to mind Jewish customs. He only seems to mind when they are being forced on somebody else. In the book of Romans, he is speaking to Gentiles in a time where Jews are moving back into Rome. Even the Jewish Christians. Paul never forces his freedom upon the Jewish Christians, and I believe he is trying to teach his Gentile Brothers in Christ to respect the customs and culture of his Jewish Brothers in Christ.

Indeed! Paul himself 'acted' like a Jew under the law when it suited him to do so. And acted like a gentile NOT under the law when it suited him to do so. That's partly why the territory in general can be difficult to deal with 'because' in the carnal mind this can not be remedied.

Paul without any doubt saw and taught that the law is spiritual. As holy, just and good if used properly. There is no doubt if we observe his own words on these matters.

Neither the law or Jesus, the Word, the Law made flesh, has provided a free pass to sin and evil. That never happened. It's a common mistake that many christians make.

If Grace is against sin and evil just as the law is there is no difference in the standards.

 

[JLB]

Smaller said -

God is every bit as much against evil and sin in flesh or resurrection as He was prior. That never changed or wavered.

Amen.

What changed was what is defined as sin.

It's not a sin to eat pork.

It's not a sin to kindle a fire on Saturday.

The Law changed. How did the Law Change? The Word became flesh.

It's not a sin to eat pork.

It's not a sin to kindle a fire on Saturday.

Nothing passed from the Law. Not one jot or tittle of the Law was LOST when The Word became flesh.

15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Is this law in effect, whereby the church shall stone people to death for working of the Sabbath?


Yes or No?

If you say No, then it means something has passed from the law.

If you say yes, then you are a disobedient sinner who does not obey God's Holy Commandment.



JLB

 

[TOG]

Torah Court?

A court that judges according to the Torah, such as the Sanhedrin.

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." Numbers 15:32-35


...those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. ...all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.

That was the judgment of not only a court, but of God Himself. It was not the decision of any one individual, like you make it out to be.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

That's the point.


The law of Moses required that a person who was under the law do all the law and continue to do all the law of be cursed.

The why do you continue to insist on only doing parts of it? You reject the Sabbath and the dietary laws, which means you are guilty of rejecting the whole law.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

The why do you continue to insist on only doing parts of it? You reject the Sabbath and the dietary laws, which means you are guilty of rejecting the whole law.

The TOG​

Because the Mediator of the New Covenant, My Lord and Savior, has purified all foods.

His Apostle and writer of the New Testament scriptures teaches me that.

Please review the scriptures I quoted from Jesus and Paul.

A court that judges according to the Torah, such as the Sanhedrin.

You mean Levite Priest's.

Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? Hebrews 7:11

I thought you had heard, the Priesthood has changed -

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12


We are now Governed by the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, under Jesus Christ.

We ourselves have been made priest's unto Him who ever lives to make intercession for the saints.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Amen.

What changed was what is defined as sin.

It's not a sin to eat pork.

That didn't change either. Paul was very clear that if someone thought that eating meat was a sin, then to them it is A SIN regardless of what your own conscience dictates to them. We do not control the conscience convictions of other people. That is only the territory of the individual to deal with.

It's not a sin to kindle a fire on Saturday.

What you continue to insist upon is a literal external understanding of the law. That was never the case with the law.

The law is spiritual, just as Paul taught us. And the law has very certain interactions with sin indwelling the flesh to this day that can not be altered.

These are internal matters, not external matters.

In Romans 7 Paul shows us how the law works in adversarial manners INTERNALLY. This is still a reality to this day.

It is precisely on this ground of fact that we realize and recognize our NEED for a Savior.

It's not a sin to eat pork.

That's simply not your place to say.

It's not a sin to kindle a fire on Saturday.

Again, not your call. Sin is a matter of internal convictions in the viewers. No one has called any of us to violate our internal convictions.

15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

Is this law in effect, whereby the church shall stone people to death for working of the Sabbath?

Yes or No?

Maybe when we start talking about the difference between how the carnal mind sees the law and how the spiritual mind sees the law we could have a credible conversation.

Are children still stoned at the gate in the spiritual sense?

ABSOLUTELY!

The carnal mind can not move into that understanding. The spiritual mind WILL.

If you say No, then it means something has passed from the law.

I said YES. That still happens in the spiritual senses.

If you say yes, then you are a disobedient sinner who does not obey God's Holy Commandment.

JLB

And I'd just say that your understanding of the law is exceptionally natural and carnal. Nothing personal. That's where everyone starts their engagements, from the natural carnal perspective.

That is not all that the law contains however.

The carnal mind can not submit to the law of God. It's not even possible.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I accept that the law is entirely against ALL the sin and evil that I factually have internally. That is SUBMISSION to the findings of fact of the LAW.

This also means that God is firmly against ME in this direction. I may hold that sin and evil in check so it doesn't amplify it's working in my life through the course of first sin thought, then sin word, then sin deed.

But I will never escape the fact that SIN THOUGHTS arrive in no uncertain way within and do so by the prompting of the WORD of God.

The Law empowers sin. That will not change as long as sin and evil exists. This is a very POTENT fact of Gods Law that remains operable in the world and the people to this day, whether they accept or know the fact or not. I respect the spiritual internal fact because it is a fact. I am not led into A LIE about this matter.

 

[TOG]

Because the Mediator of the New Covenant, My Lord and Savior, has purified all foods.

If he contradicted or changed a single commandment, then he violated the law and sinned. The Jesus I believe in never sinned. He never violated a single commandment, including the commandment against changing the law. You obviously believe in a different Jesus than I do.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

smaller said -

What you continue to insist upon is a literal external understanding of the law. That was never the case with the law.

Well let's compare what happened during the time the law was given, to see if the children of Israel literally obeyed what the law stated, or if there was some other way that they interpreted the law of Moses.


The Commandment -

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15



The Commandment literally obeyed.

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.Numbers 15:32-36


...all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Are you now going to say that this man died "spiritually" rather than literally.


Furthermore, the Commandment to not lie is to also be obeyed literally, as well as do not steal, or do not murder.


The 10 Commandments that were God's Commandments before the law was added, and are still God's Commandments after the law has been made Obsolete, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way, are to be obeyed literally.


The Law of Moses was to be obeyed literally.

Physical circumcision was literally required, as Moses son nearly lost his literal, physical life because of this command.

24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!"--because of the circumcision. Exodus 4:24-26

 

[smaller]

Well let's compare what happened during the time the law was given, to see if the children of Israel literally obeyed what the law stated, or if there was some other way that they interpreted the law of Moses.

The Commandment -

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

The Commandment literally obeyed.

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.Numbers 15:32-36

...all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

Are you now going to say that this man died "spiritually" rather than literally.

I understand that there were carnal understandings of the LAW, that the LAW was always against the carnal man/mind and heart and that the LAW was meant, ultimately to kill such.

They, the fleshly children of Israel had no understanding and were not provided any by God Himself. They were entirely meant to be burdened by the LAW as all carnal people are.

Furthermore, the Commandment to not lie is to also be obeyed literally, as well as do not steal, or do not murder.

The law also leads people to LIE, particularly if they can't tell the truth.

IF Israel were so obedient to the jots and tittles they should have all lined up and stoned THEMSELVES to the death for their respective sins.

But of course we know from the scriptures that Israel was in fact BLINDED, just as every carnal mind is blinded.

The 10 Commandments that were God's Commandments before the law was added, and are still God's Commandments after the law has been made Obsolete, nailed to the cross and taken out of the way, are to be obeyed literally.

The Law of Moses was to be obeyed literally.

There is no such animal as a legally obedient sinner. Carnal minds may think that is so as well. And carnal minds will be led and deceived to think they are temporarily sinless as well, by the same working of the internal deceptions of SIN.

So what else is new?

Physical circumcision was literally required, as Moses son nearly lost his literal, physical life because of this command.

In the carnal understanding, yes. But obviously their understanding didn't do any of them a LICK of good. The LAW brings adverse judgments that can not be avoided by anyone.

24 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!"--because of the circumcision. Exodus 4:24-26

How we view matters of law will remain light years apart.

HERE is LAW as He Ever Was/Is and Will Be:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active.

(Edited, ToS 2.4. personal insult and trolling. Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

If he contradicted or changed a single commandment, then he violated the law and sinned. The Jesus I believe in never sinned. He never violated a single commandment, including the commandment against changing the law. You obviously believe in a different Jesus than I do.

The TOG​

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19


Paul says the same exact thing concerning food.

14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14


Under the New Covenant, you and I have the liberty to choose to eat the food that we want.

If you don't want to eat pork, then don't eat it.

If you don't want to eat shrimp, then don't eat it.

It's not a sin to eat shrimp or Lobster or baby back ribs.

Under the law of Moses, people were no given this liberty.

23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23

If you don't have peace about eating these things then by all means don't eat them.

However please don't teach people or persuade them that it is a sin to eat these things because Jesus said it was okay and Paul said it was ok.


If you were to teach people that they couldn't eat these things because it was sin, then you would be the one who puts a stumbling block before them, and that is a sin.


Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:15-17


Likewise this applies to Sabbaths and feast days -

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. Romans 14:5


I ask you to please reconsider what you have said, for Jesus gives us liberty.


JLB

 

[JLB]

smaller said -

I understand that there were carnal understandings of the LAW, that the LAW was always against the carnal man/mind and heart and that the LAW was meant, ultimately to kill such.

They, the fleshly children of Israel had no understanding and were not provided any by God Himself. They were entirely meant to be burdened by the LAW as all carnal people are.

Why would you say that people who are obedient to obey what the Commandments say, are carnal?

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Is there a scripture that you have that teaches us that people who actually do the work of obeying the commandment of God are "carnally" minded?

Or is this some new "postmodern" doctrine?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Why would you say that people who are obedient to obey what the Commandments say, are carnal?

No flesh man is able to conjure up The Living Word by exercising obedience or even less, by the impositions of their fleshly sights upon The Living Word.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

People are not God.

Is there a scripture that you have that teaches us that people who actually do the work of obeying the commandment of God are "carnally" minded?

They can see it however they please. The Spiritual Nature of the Eternal Living God isn't going to change by any of our exercises.

Or is this some new "postmodern" doctrine?

JLB

I'd say I'm only surprised that people miss the obvious. But then understanding the condition of man, it's only natural.

 

[Deborah13]

Exactly. Paul doesn't seem to mind Jewish customs. He only seems to mind when they are being forced on somebody else. In the book of Romans, he is speaking to Gentiles in a time where Jews are moving back into Rome. Even the Jewish Christians. Paul never forces his freedom upon the Jewish Christians, and I believe he is trying to teach his Gentile Brothers in Christ to respect the customs and culture of his Jewish Brothers in Christ.

Amen

Indeed! Paul himself 'acted' like a Jew under the law when it suited him to do so. And acted like a gentile NOT under the law when it suited him to do so. That's partly why the territory in general can be difficult to deal with 'because' in the carnal mind this can not be remedied.

Paul without any doubt saw and taught that the law is spiritual. As holy, just and good if used properly. There is no doubt if we observe his own words on these matters.

Neither the law or Jesus, the Word, the Law made flesh, has provided a free pass to sin and evil. That never happened. It's a common mistake that many christians make.

If Grace is against sin and evil just as the law is there is no difference in the standards.

Amen