Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[IwreckNsow]

Torah Court?


32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." Numbers 15:32-35

EXOD.35 [2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.[3] Ye shall KINDLE NO FIRE throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Kindle no fire. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food.

PROVERBS 26 [20] WHERE NO WOOD IS, THERE THE FIRE GOETH OUT: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.[21] As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to KINDLE STRIFE. [22] The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

Seems so. Seems to have something to do with the words you speak.

JAMES 3 [4] Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.[5] EVEN SO THE TONGUE IS A LITTLE MEMBER, AND BOASTETH GREAT THINGS. BEHOLD, HOW GREAT A MATTER A LITTLE FIRE KINDLETH![6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.[7] For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Yup. Once again the old and the new mesh {is that a word?}

JER.17 [26] And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD.[27] But IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME TO HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; THEN WILL I KINDLE A FIRE in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

How many times and how many ways must the Lord tell us to keep His sabbath day before we will believe Him?

EZEKIEL 20 [47] And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I WILL KINDLE A FIRE IN THEE, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: THE FLAMING FLAME shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. [48] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THAT I THE LORD HAVE KINDLED IT: it shall not be quenched. [49] THEN SAID I, AH LORD GOD! THEY SAY OF ME, DOTH HE NOT SPEAK PARABLES?

I Guess by the time God kindles His fire all flesh shall know He kindled it. But.. to late for many.

 

[Deborah13]

I understand that there were carnal understandings of the LAW, that the LAW was always against the carnal man/mind and heart and that the LAW was meant, ultimately to kill such.

They, the fleshly children of Israel had no understanding and were not provided any by God Himself. They were entirely meant to be burdened by the LAW as all carnal people are.


The law also leads people to LIE, particularly if they can't tell the truth.

IF Israel were so obedient to the jots and tittles they should have all lined up and stoned THEMSELVES to the death for their respective sins.

But of course we know from the scriptures that Israel was in fact BLINDED, just as every carnal mind is blinded.



There is no such animal as a legally obedient sinner. Carnal minds may think that is so as well. And carnal minds will be led and deceived to think they are temporarily sinless as well, by the same working of the internal deceptions of SIN.

So what else is new?


In the carnal understanding, yes. But obviously their understanding didn't do any of them a LICK of good. The LAW brings adverse judgments that can not be avoided by anyone.



How we view matters of law will remain light years apart.

HERE is LAW as He Ever Was/Is and Will Be:

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and active.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, personal insult and trolling. Obadiah.)

If I understand you correctly you are making a huge generalization about the understanding that the children of Israel had about the Law and about God helping them to understand.
Clearly there were those who did. Jesus Himself points out about King David eating the show bread.

 

[JLB]

EXOD.35 [2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.[3] Ye shall KINDLE NO FIRE throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Kindle no fire. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food.

PROVERBS 26 [20] WHERE NO WOOD IS, THERE THE FIRE GOETH OUT: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.[21] As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to KINDLE STRIFE. [22] The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.

Seems so. Seems to have something to do with the words you speak.

JAMES 3 [4] Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.[5] EVEN SO THE TONGUE IS A LITTLE MEMBER, AND BOASTETH GREAT THINGS. BEHOLD, HOW GREAT A MATTER A LITTLE FIRE KINDLETH![6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.[7] For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Yup. Once again the old and the new mesh {is that a word?}

JER.17 [26] And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD.[27] But IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME TO HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; THEN WILL I KINDLE A FIRE in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

How many times and how many ways must the Lord tell us to keep His sabbath day before we will believe Him?

EZEKIEL 20 [47] And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I WILL KINDLE A FIRE IN THEE, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: THE FLAMING FLAME shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. [48] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THAT I THE LORD HAVE KINDLED IT: it shall not be quenched. [49] THEN SAID I, AH LORD GOD! THEY SAY OF ME, DOTH HE NOT SPEAK PARABLES?

I Guess by the time God kindles His fire all flesh shall know He kindled it. But.. to late for many.

Aren't you the one who posted 2 Corinthians 6:16-17 and took it completely out of context, to try and validate your doctrine that eating pork is a sin?


Here is my answer to that.

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty." 2 Corinthians 6:14-17


The context has nothing to do with food or eating pork.


Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers...

Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever...

And what agreement has the temple of God with idols...

Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.


Clearly Paul is referring to human beings who are unbelievers.


This has nothing to do with food! Nothing.


Here is what Jesus said about all foods.

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19


and here is what Paul taught about food that He himself was taught by Jesus -


14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Romans 14:14


convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself...


Please read these words from Jesus and Paul.


Please don't twist what Paul has said, to try and bring people under the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

No flesh man is able to conjure up The Living Word by exercising obedience or even less, by the impositions of their fleshly sights upon The Living Word.


People are not God.



They can see it however they please. The Spiritual Nature of the Eternal Living God isn't going to change by any of our exercises.



I'd say I'm only surprised that people miss the obvious. But then understanding the condition of man, it's only natural.

Why would you say that people who are obedient to obey what the Commandments say, are carnal?

Please answer why you would you say that people who are obedient to obey what the Commandments say, are carnal?

You made the statement, now please answer why you made such a statement.


JLB

 

[TOG]

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19

Look at the context. It's talking about Pharisaic traditions, not any commandment in the Bible. If you believe that he was talking about eating pork in that passage, then you are reading that into the Scripture. It's not there if you look at what it actually says. But if yo want to believe that Jesus sinned by changing the law and thereby violating it, then that's up to you. You won't convince me of that.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

Look at the context. It's talking about Pharisaic traditions, not any commandment in the Bible. If you believe that he was talking about eating pork in that passage, then you are reading that into the Scripture. It's not there if you look at what it actually says. But if yo want to believe that Jesus sinned by changing the law and thereby violating it, then that's up to you. You won't convince me of that.

The TOG​

First of all, Jesus made this statement -

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19


whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him... thus purifying all foods.

Jesus by having all authority in Heaven and on Earth has declared all foods to be clean, to be pure and suitable for eating, which can not defile a person.

Paul teaches us from this very truth, as he says -

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; Romans 14:14


For you to tell someone that eating pork is a sin, is putting a stumbling block before them, after Jesus purified all foods, and Paul continues to teach that there is nothing unclean of itself.


The only sin here is a lack of faith in what Jesus said. which is called unbelief.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23


If you want to eat only special foods, then that is your choice.


However it is not a sin to eat pork, since Jesus and Paul teach otherwise.

6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. Romans 14:6


Jesus did change the law as He is the mediator of the New Covenant.

Please don't say Jesus sinned because He has changed the law.

• For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

• Sacrificing animals is no longer required, because Jesus has fulfilled the Law.

• Stoning people to death is no longer required.

• Food laws have been declared obsolete, because Jesus purified all foods.

These are just a few...


JLB

 

[TOG]

Paul was just as clear that if someone THOUGHT that eating (presumably pork) was a sin, then to them IT IS. And they and WE should respect the fact of their convictions.

The only thing I remember Paul saying about eating was concerning meat that had been sacrificed to idols and the Lord's Supper. Neither had anything to do with pork, so why do you say "presumably pork"? What he actually taught was that if you don't know whether something has been sacrificed to an idol, then assume that it hasn't and go ahead and eat it. If you do know that it has been sacrificed, then don't eat it. He never actually says that it's okay to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols. What he says is about cases where you don't know if it's been sacrificed.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you just answer a simple question?

Are Christians required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.?

Yes or No.

No explaining and redefining terms and scriptures.

Yes or No.

Yes

 

[JLB]

Yes

Physical Circumcision and keeping the law was not required by The Church leadership in Jerusalem, according to the scriptures.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--.


But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?



If you could keep the law of Moses in some "spiritual" way, with some "spiritual" circumcision, then it would not be called the law of Moses.

The law of Moses required "physical" Circumcision of the flesh, and strict obedience to all that was written in the law which includes animal sacrifices.

The Church leadership gave no such Commandment.


What you just agreed to by saying yes, is the Church is required to sacrifice animals and keep all the dietary laws, and feast days and Mosaic Sabbath requirements.


That was the law of Moses.

The Seed has come, and now what was added has become obsolete.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The only thing I remember Paul saying about eating was concerning meat that had been sacrificed to idols and the Lord's Supper. Neither had anything to do with pork, so why do you say "presumably pork"? What he actually taught was that if you don't know whether something has been sacrificed to an idol, then assume that it hasn't and go ahead and eat it. If you do know that it has been sacrificed, then don't eat it. He never actually says that it's okay to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols. What he says is about cases where you don't know if it's been sacrificed.

The TOG​

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you just agreed to by saying yes, is the Church is required to sacrifice animals and keep all the dietary laws, and feast days and Mosaic Sabbath requirements.


That was the law of Moses.

The Seed has come, and now what was added has become obsolete.



JLB

I agreed to no such thing. Remember, you set the conditions under which I was allowed to respond:

Yes or No.

No explaining and redefining terms and scriptures.

Yes or No.


JLB

Since I can only answer 'yes, or no', and I'm not allowed to explain my answer, it's unfair that you decide for me that my answer means we have to sacrifice animals, keep literal dietary and festival laws, etc.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All this talk!

I just want someone from the 'law went away' side to explain to me why Jesus set us free from a law that we were not under to begin with, and then are commanded by Paul to uphold and fulfill the law we were never under to begin with and don't have to be 'under' now!

Stop all the babble. Just explain it!

 

[TOG]

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Speaking of the law, I believe there's something in today's civil laws about copyrighted materials. You're supposed to cite your sources. Do you have a reference to go with that quote, so I can look at it in context?

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

I agreed to no such thing. Remember, you set the conditions under which I was allowed to respond:
Since I can only answer 'yes, or no', and I'm not allowed to explain my answer, it's unfair that you decide for me that my answer means we have to sacrifice animals, keep literal dietary and festival laws, etc.

This is why I have refused to answer him with a simple yes or no. He wants to be able to twist the answer to get what he wants out of it. The fact that he has to resort to such tactics speaks volumes.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

First of all, Jesus made this statement -

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19

You have a real problem understanding the concept of context, don't you. The context of that verse has been pointed out to you multiple times, both by me and others. If taking the same verses out of context and repeating them again and again is all you have, then it's not worth my time talking to you any more.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

You have a real problem understanding the concept of context, don't you. The context of that verse has been pointed out to you multiple times, both by me and others. If taking the same verses out of context and repeating them again and again is all you have, then it's not worth my time talking to you any more.

The TOG​

Not at all.

The context is about food.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself;

Paul learned this from Jesus Himself as he says he himself is convinced by Jesus, nothing is unclean of itself.

What did Jesus say about food?

... thus purifying all foods

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19



Another law that Jesus changed from the law of Moses, was about calling people who were once declared unclean, by the law of Moses, He has now determined to be clean.


Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Acts 10:28


If Jesus has purified all foods, and Paul also clearly teaches the Gentiles the same, then why do you call eating Pork a sin?



JLB

 

[JLB]

All this talk!

I just want someone from the 'law went away' side to explain to me why Jesus set us free from a law that we were not under to begin with, and then are commanded by Paul to uphold and fulfill the law we were never under to begin with and don't have to be 'under' now!

Stop all the babble. Just explain it!

I have posted the scripture and explained to you many times exactly what you keep asking, because you just ignore what the scripture I give and what the scripture means.


Here it is again from Post # 246 -



Faith upholds the law the same exact way a pound of gold upholds a pound of confederate currency on a scale.

That is the meaning and use of the word in Romans 3:31.

upholds is a word used to describe a weight of measure.

Unfortunately for your doctrine the gold, which represents faith has great value to God and pleases God.

Confederate currency, like the law is obsolete.

The law is not of faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.




Gentiles were never under the law of Moses, as Peter told the house of Cornelius -

Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Acts 10:28




JLB

 

[JohnD]

What is the truth? Is the Law of God as revealed in the Old Testament done away with – obsolete and terminated – obliterated and nullified by God’s grace?
If so, then why did Jesus Christ declare, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law . . . I came not to destroy but to FULFILL” Matt.5:17, 18. He added, “For assuredly, I say to yoy, till haven and earth pass away, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled” (v.18). Are heaven and earth still around? If so, then the Law of God is still in existence, also!

You will need an Adobe Reader to open the below link. http://webhelper.centurylink.com/in...//www.adobe reader/&r=http://www.adobe.com/

http://www.triumphpro.com/law-and-the-covenants.pdf

The Law of Moses is still in effect and will be until judgment day. It points the way to Christ. And it stands as the condemnation of all who do not believe in him. It is also the measure of right and wrong / truth and untruth.

The difference for the believer in Christ is we are not subject to the Law of Moses in that it was superseded by the Law of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have posted the scripture and explained to you many times exactly what you keep asking, because you just ignore what the scripture I give and what the scripture means.

No, I'm not ignoring it.

Faith upholds the law the same exact way a pound of gold upholds a pound of confederate currency on a scale.

That is the meaning and use of the word in Romans 3:31.

upholds is a word used to describe a weight of measure.

Did you just pick that out of the list of Strong's Biblical uses? According to Vine's, the usage of the word 'established' in Romans 3:31 NASB is according to 'stand', not a weight of measure as you're suggesting.

Open this link:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2476&t=KJV

Then click on the Vine's reference that looks like this:

Vine's Expository Dictionary:View Entry

(Note that the word is used the same way in Romans 10:3 NASB, and Hebrews 10:9 NASB as it is in Romans 3:31 NASB.)

Gentiles were never under the law of Moses....

Then why does the church teach us that Christ died to set us free from the law that we were never under to begin with? I'm pretty sure even you argue that we have been 'set free' from the law, yet you say we were never under it to begin with.

And if it is true that we were never under the law of Moses to begin with and never had to be, and so by extension, aren't now, why does Paul explain to us that the obedience of faith fulfills the law, and then commands us to do that?

These questions you have never answered. I'm not doing to you like Freegrace does, insisting you didn't answer a question simply because the answer was not satisfactory to me and in line with my own doctrine. I'm pretty sure you have never taken the time to address these questions directly.

 

[JLB]

This is why I have refused to answer him with a simple yes or no. He wants to be able to twist the answer to get what he wants out of it. The fact that he has to resort to such tactics speaks volumes.

The TOG​

The fact that refuse to answer a simple question such as -

Is eating pork a sin?

Says it all.

You know from what Jesus and Pail said that all foods are acceptable to eat.


JLB.