Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[JLB]

And let me guess....you can't see from this verse that not being under the law means not being under the dominion of the law, right?

I can see that not being under the law of Moses means not being under the law of Moses.

Look at the next verse.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Checkmate!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:4

The Body who died is the body of Christ.

I died with Christ on the cross:

"I have been crucified with Christ..." (Galatians 2:20 NIV)

The One who was raised from the dead was the body of Christ.

Not your body. The Body of Christ.

"...you have been raised with Christ..." (Colossians 3:1 NIV)

You were never "married" to your own body, furthermore you still are wearing your body that is the same body you were born with.

I was 'married' to the sin nature. That is the part of me that died on the cross with Christ. And with that relationship now ended (marriage ends at death) I am now free to be joined to new 'husband' Christ and now serve him in marital obedience.

Finally, Paul makes it clear that what he is writing pertains to those who were under the law, and know the law.

Yes, the church at Rome.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

What does the law of marriage have dominion in over a man/woman, JLB?

The natural Children of Israel, or any gentiles who had joined that Covenant through physical circumcision and compliance with the literal law of Moses.

Those are the ones who were redeemed from the law of Moses.

Those are the ones who were delivered from the law of Moses.

And also the whole world that is held accountable and condemned by the law of Moses--just as Paul says. But which, I have the feeling, you will make mean something else.

Furthermore, Paul is inoculating the gentile Christians from the poison of the believing Jews who were trying to bring them under the law of Moses.

Yes, bring them under the law for the purpose of trying to be justified by the law of Moses. That is what is forbidden. The whole church is obligated to uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law of Moses by their faith in Christ, so that is hardly what was being forbidden by the Jerusalem Council.

Paul is teaching teach them partake of the leaven of the believing Pharisee's who were hell bent on bringing the gentile Christians under the law of Moses and teaching them that they must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

....for the purpose of being justified by the law. It's important that you not divide the word of God improperly by leaving this very important point out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can see that not being under the law of Moses means not being under the law of Moses.

Look at the next verse.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Checkmate!


JLB

You amuse me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are trying to teach Christians that they are required to keep an Obsolete law, that those who were actually under, were delivered and redeemed from.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that your obsolete law doctrine is actually a nullifying and abolishing of the law--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do. Until you clear this obvious contradiction with Christ's words your doctrine is false. Phony. Meaningless.

 

[JLB]

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that your obsolete law doctrine is actually a nullifying and abolishing of the law--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do. Until you clear this obvious contradiction with Christ's words your doctrine is false. Phony. Meaningless.

My obsolete law.

This is the problem Jethro.

We started out in agreement.

The agreement was over this very phrase from Hebrews 8:13

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


He has made the first obsolete.

Any understanding of the scriptures must been seen from the foundation of understanding that the [literal] law of Moses was temporary, and has been fullfilled and made obsolete, nauiled to the cross, taken out of the way, BECAUSE... Jesus fulfilled the law.

That means when we walk in the Spirit, we are living by His Resurrected life, that has fulfilled the law.

Walking in the Spirit is walking in the Love of God, living from His life that has fulfilled the law.


Please review these scriptures that "witness" each other.

• In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

• What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

• God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law... Galatians 4:4-5

• for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law... Romans 6:14-15

• For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Jesus said there wasn't going to be any change in the law, NOT EVEN a comma or a period was to be changed or removed UNTIL...

Until has come..

Not only a jot or title has been removed, but the priesthood itself, as well as the law has been changed.

Not the Levitical priesthood anymore but now under the changed law, Gentiles are now priest's.


It's called the New Covenant.

The "first" covenant has been made obsolete by God Himself.

Not by JLB, but by God Himself!



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

"...you have been raised with Christ..." (Colossians 3:1 NIV)

If your spirit is joined with His Spirit, then you are raised with Him and seated with Him in Heavenly Places.

The problem is your body is still strapped to your bones and still here on earth, and has not been resurrected from the dead.

It is by faith.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Romans 6:5

The likeness of His death.

That is what baptism is.

We are buried with Him in the likeness of His death, by faith.

Our faith is expressed in obedience by getting Baptized in water.

We still have to "reckon" ourselves dead by faith...


Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord...

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


...present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead.

This is the work of faith.


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My obsolete law.

This is the problem Jethro.

We started out in agreement.

The agreement was over this very phrase from Hebrews 8:13

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


He has made the first obsolete.

Any understanding of the scriptures must been seen from the foundation of understanding that the [literal] law of Moses was temporary, and has been fullfilled and made obsolete, nauiled to the cross, taken out of the way, BECAUSE... Jesus fulfilled the law.

That means when we walk in the Spirit, we are living by His Resurrected life, that has fulfilled the law.

Walking in the Spirit is walking in the Love of God, living from His life that has fulfilled the law.


Please review these scriptures that "witness" each other.

• In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete... Hebrews 8:13

• What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:19

• God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law... Galatians 4:4-5

• for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law... Romans 6:14-15

• For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

Jesus said there wasn't going to be any change in the law, NOT EVEN a comma or a period was to be changed or removed UNTIL...

Until has come..

Not only a jot or title has been removed, but the priesthood itself, as well as the law has been changed.

Not the Levitical priesthood anymore but now under the changed law, Gentiles are now priest's.


It's called the New Covenant.

The "first" covenant has been made obsolete by God Himself.

Not by JLB, but by God Himself!



JLB

Yes, JLB, the old covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice has been made obsolete and not needed anymore. It is obsolete because it is fulfilled, not broken by faith in Christ. But your doctrine has it and the law of Moses utterly removed as to not be 'kept' in favor of another law, which is exactly what Jesus said he did NOT come to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem is your body is still strapped to your bones and still here on earth...

But the argument is, JLB, that what I'm no longer strapped to is the sin nature. That is what died on the cross with Jesus. And because that happened I don't have to obey it in marital obedience anymore. I'm no longer a slave to it anymore. I've been set free from that relationship because marriage ends when there is a death. I'm now free to be married to new husband Jesus and live in marital bondage to him now.

 

[Deborah13]

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that your obsolete law doctrine is actually a nullifying and abolishing of the law--the very thing Christ said he did NOT come to do. Until you clear this obvious contradiction with Christ's words your doctrine is false. Phony. Meaningless.

How do you explain this verse?
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
To me this is explains that the law of commandments contained in ordinances, was taken out of the way, by the death of Christ, the perfect sacrifice, not while He was alive fulfilling them. This is why the gentiles were not obligated to be circumcised or obey the Law of Moses, as determined by the council at Jerusalem.
Put that scripture together with this scripture and we find that to be a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, no longer required circumcision, etc. because those requirements were abolished.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
However, that does not change the fact that we as believers uphold the righteousness of those laws. And it does not change the fact that when we walk in the Spirit of love, we fulfill the reason the law of given in the first, so the people of God [those set apart] would express love for God and love for their neighbor. Of coarse, it is a tutor used to convince one that they couldn't do it perfectly and needed a Redeemer. King David certainly knew this.
I am fully convinced that no matter which covenant God made with any people it boiled down to these two.
One might do a study on how all 613 were expressed by different prophets in the OT. King David, boiled them down to 11, Isaiah to 6 and 3 (if I remember correctly), Ezra (?) to two, Jeremiah to (1).
Some of those before the cross understood. That is why King David knew that he would not be sinning if he ate the show bread and gave to to his soldiers because they were hungry.
Show bread = bread of life
King David = Messiah
Soldiers = those of us who receive the bread of life given by the Messiah

 

[JLB]

Yes, JLB, the old covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice has been made obsolete and not needed anymore. It is obsolete because it is fulfilled, not broken by faith in Christ. But your doctrine has it and the law of Moses utterly removed as to not be 'kept' in favor of another law, which is exactly what Jesus said he did NOT come to do.

WRONG!!!

For the 100000000th time.

Until all is fulfilled...

Nothing shall be removed or changed UNTIL...all is fulfilled.

The law was added UNTIL the Seed should come.

The ADDING of the law was ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The law has now been made obsolete and has vanished away, being taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the law died with Him.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How do you explain this verse?
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
To me this is explains that the law of commandments contained in ordinances, was taken out of the way, by the death of Christ, the perfect sacrifice, not while He was alive fulfilling them. This is why the gentiles were not obligated to be circumcised or obey the Law of Moses, as determined by the council at Jerusalem.
Put that scripture together with this scripture and we find that to be a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel, no longer required circumcision, etc. because those requirements were abolished.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Abolished here is referring to the doing away of the barrier of all that the bloat of the Mosaic law Rabbincal interpretation (dogma--ordinances, vs.15) had become in the first covenant. As you know circumcision, ect. doesn't get abolished by faith in the New Covenant. They get fulfilled so that the literal first covenant way of circumcision, ect. doesn't have to be done and, therefore, effectively demolishes all the Rabbinical add-on interpretation that governed that literal first covenant way and which Jews used to isolate gentiles as 2nd class citizens.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

WRONG!!!

For the 100000000th time.

Until all is fulfilled...

Nothing shall be removed or changed UNTIL...all is fulfilled.

The law was added UNTIL the Seed should come.

The ADDING of the law was ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The law has now been made obsolete and has vanished away, being taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the law died with Him.

JLB

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

Fulfillment is not abolishing. Fulfillment is doing exactly that--fulfilling the requirements of the law, not abolishing them as to leave them unfulfilled. But that is what your doctrine does. Abandons them as unfulfilled in favor of another law, thereby rendering them abolished.

My doctrine does not do that. Faith fulfills that which Jesus himself said he came to fulfill, not abolish. That fulfillment then makes it possible for the literal way of first covenant worship found in the law to be laid aside--not abolished, but laid aside, marked 'fulfilled in full' with the blood and body of Jesus Christ. A fulfilling, not an abolishing, that a person applies to their account by believing in Jesus Christ. And the remaining debt of law that is not directly fulfilled by Jesus himself is fulfilled by us through that same faith when we love others as ourselves in what Paul calls "faith working through love" (Galatians 5: NASB).

 

[Deborah13]

Abolished here is referring to the doing away of the barrier of all that the bloat of the Mosaic law Rabbincal interpretation (dogma--ordinances, vs.15) had become in the first covenant. As you know circumcision, ect. doesn't get abolished by faith in the New Covenant. They get fulfilled so that the literal first covenant way of circumcision, ect. doesn't have to be done and, therefore, effectively demolishes all the Rabbinical add-on interpretation that governed that literal first covenant way and which Jews used to isolate gentiles as 2nd class citizens.

So you believe the oral law, that wasn't even around until about 200-300 BC and not written down until much later, is what stood between the nation of Israel and other nations for 1500 yrs.? Interesting.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you believe the oral law, that wasn't even around until about 200-300 BC and not written down until much later, is what stood between the nation of Israel and other nations for 1500 yrs.? Interesting.

Lol, no. Rabbinical tradition is probably as old as the law itself. And as Jesus said it made it all the harder for people to enter the kingdom of God, not easier.

When the first covenant got laid aside all the power got stripped from these add-on laws which were based on that which got laid aside, and stripped the power of the authorities that enforced them. For example, when it became fully known that circumcision is completely and totally satisfied in the circumcision of the sin nature alone any and all Rabbinical requirements added to the Mosaic requirement became all the more meaningless, even abolished.

 

[JLB]

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17 NASB)

Fulfillment is not abolishing. Fulfillment is doing exactly that--fulfilling the requirements of the law, not abolishing them as to leave them unfulfilled. But that is what your doctrine does. Abandons them as unfulfilled in favor of another law, thereby rendering them abolished.

My doctrine does not do that. Faith fulfills that which Jesus himself said he came to fulfill, not abolish. That fulfillment then makes it possible for the literal way of first covenant worship found in the law to be laid aside--not abolished, but laid aside, marked 'fulfilled in full' with the blood and body of Jesus Christ. A fulfilling, not an abolishing, that a person applies to their account by believing in Jesus Christ. And the remaining debt of law that is not directly fulfilled by Jesus himself is fulfilled by us through that same faith when we love others as ourselves in what Paul calls "faith working through love" (Galatians 5: NASB).

Nothing shall be removed or changed UNTIL...all is fulfilled.

The law was added UNTIL the Seed should come.

The ADDING of the law was ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The law has now been made obsolete and has vanished away, being taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the law died with Him.

He redeemed those under the law...

He delivered those from the law.

For you are NOT UNDER THE LAW but under grace.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing shall be removed or changed UNTIL...all is fulfilled.

The law was added UNTIL the Seed should come.

The ADDING of the law was ALWAYS TEMPORARY!

The law has now been made obsolete and has vanished away, being taken out of the way, and nailed to the cross.

When Jesus Christ died on the cross, the law died with Him.

He redeemed those under the law...

He delivered those from the law.

For you are NOT UNDER THE LAW but under grace.


JLB

Enough already! We know what your doctrine says. We know you believe Christ came to abolish the law.

 

[JohnD]

The Law of Moses is still in effect and will be until judgment day. It points the way to Christ. And it stands as the condemnation of all who do not believe in him. It is also the measure of right and wrong / truth and untruth.

The difference for the believer in Christ is we are not subject to the Law of Moses in that it was superseded by the Law of Christ.

Think of the Law of Moses like the Law of Gravity and the law of Christ like the law of Aerodynamics.

Aerodynamics trumps Gravity. Break the law of aerodynamics and you get the law of gravity tout de suite.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Think of the Law of Moses like the Law of Gravity and the law of Christ like the law of Aerodynamics.

Aerodynamics trumps Gravity. Break the law of aerodynamics and you get the law of gravity tout de suite.

I believe the 'law of Christ' is the 'law of Moses' minus the literal first covenant worship method and timetable.

And I do see your point that if you break the law of Christ you do indeed come under the condemnation of the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

Enough already! We know what your doctrine says. We know you believe Christ came to abolish the law.

What does the law was added until the Seed should come...mean to you?

Does it mean the law of Moses that was added until... will be removed or taken away or does it mean it will remain.

What does until the Seed should come... Mean to you?

What could it mean other than that which was added until The Seed, will be removed when the Seed comes.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does the law was added until the Seed should come...mean to you?

Does it mean the law of Moses that was added until... will be removed or taken away or does it mean it will remain.

What does until the Seed should come... Mean to you?


JLB

OMG, do you listen to anything?

The first covenant method and timetable of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice, and it's corresponding punishments, was added until Christ, the seed of Abraham, came and fulfilled those methods and timetables, and even the punishments, for us. Since he did that--fulfilled the requirements of the first covenant method and timetable for us--they don't have to be literally done anymore. They stand fulfilled, not abolished, for the believer.