Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[TOG]

When God said "I will put my Law" what exactly was He saying, and what did Christ (and Christ through Paul) have to say about it? After all, Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Most Christians are not taught about the Law of Moses properly -- they are not taught to distinguish between:
1. The moral and spiritual Law (the Ten Commandments) which is also within the conscience of Gentiles outside the Law.
2. The civil or social laws governing Israel
3. The criminal laws governing Israel
4. The laws pertaining to the Tabernacle and the Temple, the offerings, the sacrifices, the feasts, the priests, and the Levites.

It is the moral and spiritual laws which God would put into the hearts of His people through the New Birth and the indwelling Holy Spirit, and all these laws are encapsulated in one word "Love" (Gk Agape). This is God's love working in and through His people and fulfilling every aspect of the Ten Commandments (provided they are spiritual and Spirit controlled). So the Ten Commandments have effectively become the Law of Christ or the Law of Love. This is so simple, and yet people continue to stumble over this fundamental truth.

I have heard this before about the different kinds of law and I used to believe it. But I couldn't find any biblical way of distinguishing between them. It seemed to be mostly arbitrary which category a specific law was put into. I also noticed that different people would make these distinctions, but they would put the same law in different categories. One person would say a specific commandment was ceremonial, while another would say it was sacrificial. One would say a specific law was moral, while another would say it was civil. So I'm curious. How do you distinguish between these different categories? Is it based on something in the Bible, or is it a man made method? Here is a list of commandments. I expect I could for the most part predict how you would classify them, but could you please do that for me and explain why you classify each one the way you do?

1. Don't commit idolatry
2. Keep the Sabbath on the 7th day
3. Don't sleep with a man as with a woman
4. Don't sleep with your wife during her period
5. Wear fringes on the corners of your garments
6. Don't wear clothes pertaining to the opposite sex
7. Don't eat blood
8. Don't eat pork

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

The gentiles by birth who went with the Israelites were under those laws..

The Gentiles who joined themselves to Israel were expected to follow the same laws. This is specifically stated in the law. I believe that the same applies to those who are grafted onto Israel today. They are also expected to follow the same laws.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have heard this before about the different kinds of law and I used to believe it. But I couldn't find any biblical way of distinguishing between them. It seemed to be mostly arbitrary which category a specific law was put into. I also noticed that different people would make these distinctions, but they would put the same law in different categories. One person would say a specific commandment was ceremonial, while another would say it was sacrificial. One would say a specific law was moral, while another would say it was civil. So I'm curious. How do you distinguish between these different categories? Is it based on something in the Bible, or is it a man made method? Here is a list of commandments. I expect I could for the most part predict how you would classify them, but could you please do that for me and explain why you classify each one the way you do?

1. Don't commit idolatry
2. Keep the Sabbath on the 7th day
3. Don't sleep with a man as with a woman
4. Don't sleep with your wife during her period
5. Wear fringes on the corners of your garments
6. Don't wear clothes pertaining to the opposite sex
7. Don't eat blood
8. Don't eat pork

The TOG​

I believe that no matter where you make lines of demarcation between laws, and how many you make, it all boils down to which categories fall under 'righteous requirements fulfilled by Christ on the cross such that no further action is required', and which fall under 'righteous requirements to be fulfilled by the actions of the believer'. Though you can certainly divide up the righteous requirements of the law under each of the two categories.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The gentiles by birth who went with the Israelites were under those laws..

Yes. By virtue of the new birth we are born into the nation of the people of God and have all the birth rights, and responsibilities, of the people of God. Christ satisfied many of those responsibilities. We apply that satisfying of the requirements to our account by believing in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So in context with what Paul says in Romans 7:1, who was delivered from the law of Moses?


Jews or Gentiles?


JLB

The people of God (where there is no more distinction between Jew and gentile--the one you keep making).

Everybody joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit has been delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in them because the sin nature that was subject to that arousal has died. That hardly means what so many people in the church believe, that deliverance from the law means we don't have to satisfy the righteous requirements of the law--because salvation is so utterly not of me, lol.

 

[Deborah13]

I have heard this before about the different kinds of law and I used to believe it. But I couldn't find any biblical way of distinguishing between them. It seemed to be mostly arbitrary which category a specific law was put into. I also noticed that different people would make these distinctions, but they would put the same law in different categories. One person would say a specific commandment was ceremonial, while another would say it was sacrificial. One would say a specific law was moral, while another would say it was civil. So I'm curious. How do you distinguish between these different categories? Is it based on something in the Bible, or is it a man made method? Here is a list of commandments. I expect I could for the most part predict how you would classify them, but could you please do that for me and explain why you classify each one the way you do?

1. Don't commit idolatry
2. Keep the Sabbath on the 7th day
3. Don't sleep with a man as with a woman
4. Don't sleep with your wife during her period
5. Wear fringes on the corners of your garments
6. Don't wear clothes pertaining to the opposite sex
7. Don't eat blood
8. Don't eat pork

The TOG​

My very point. God didn't specify and man does not have the authority. :neutral

 

[IwreckNsow]

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.

PSALMS 119 [113] I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.[114] Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.[115] DEPART FROM ME, ye evildoers: for I WILL KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF MY GOD.[116] Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

Depart from me! Aint it great how the new verifies the old. Seems there will be many people who will be saying “I believe” when Jesus returns. Who had talked of Jesus and spoke in his name. Some that even have cast out devils in the name of Jesus. But “in that day” Jesus will say to “the many”, depart from me...I never knew you.

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people who know God and will be saved. Once again, the new verifies the old. They that observe to keep Gods 10 commandments. Remember to read the 4th one.

TITUS 1 [13] This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, AND COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, that turn from the truth. [15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. [16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, AND DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.

In Titus you will find people that profess they know God (they say they believe) but in works they deny Him. They do not know God. So according to scripture it is just not enough to simply say you believe. Theres a lot more to it.

JEREMIAH [6] Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit THEY REFUSE TO KNOW ME, saith the LORD.[7] Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, I will melt them, and try them; for how shall I do for the daughter of my people?[8] Their tongue is as an arrow shot out; it speaketh deceit: one speaketh peaceably to his neighbour with his mouth, but in heart he layeth his wait.[9] Shall I not visit them for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this?[10] For the mountains will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness a lamentation, because they are burned up, so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle; both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled; they are gone.[11] And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.[12] Who is the wise man, that may understand this? and who is he to whom the mouth of the LORD hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth and is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through?[13] And the LORD saith, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN MY LAW which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;

HOSEA 6 [1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. [2] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. [3] Then shall we know, IF WE FOLLOW ON TO KNOW THE LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

DO YOU KNOW THE LORD?

 

[Deborah13]

JLB,
Both Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus believed in the one true God YHWH and proclaimed that truth in their empires. So Cyrus was righteous just like Abraham was righteous -- by grace through faith. And God used Cyrus to cause the Temple at Jerusalem to be rebuilt. In fact Scripture says that God "stirred up his spirit". Only those who are righteous (such as Zerubbabel) had their spirits stirred up by God.

Thank you, Malachi.

 

[IwreckNsow]

Aren't you the one who posted 2 Corinthians 6:16-17 and took it completely out of context, to try and validate your doctrine that eating pork is a sin?


Here is my answer to that.

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty." 2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Lets see what the scripture you posted is talking about {verse 15}

DEUT. 13 [13] Certain men, THE CHILDREN OF BELIAL, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, SAYING, LET US GO AND SERVE OTHER GODS, which ye have not known; [14] Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; [15] Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. [16] And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. [17] And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that THE LORD MAY TURN FROM THE FIERCENESS OF HIS ANGER, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; [18] WHEN THOU SHALT HEARKEN TO THE VOICE OF THE LORD THY GOD, TO KEEP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS WHICH I COMMAND THEE THIS DAY, TO DO THAT WHICH IS RIGHT IN THE EYES OF THE LORD THY GOD.

Seems that those of Belial didnt believe they were under the 10 commandments either.

 

[IwreckNsow]

2 COR. 6 [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, OUR HEART IS ENLARGED. [12] Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels. [13] Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) BE YE ALSO ENLARGED. [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? [15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Our heart is enlarged and be ye also enlarged. So what does this mean to enlarge your heart?

PSALM 119 [32] I WILL RUN THE WAY OF THY COMMANDMENTS, WHEN THOU SHALT ENLARGE MY HEART.[33] Teach me,LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.[34] Give me understanding,and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.[35] Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

Well thats easily understood

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I take great comfort in that he knows me.

 

[IwreckNsow]

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW TESTAMENT scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing.

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

We are not to touch the unclean thing

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Theres the unclean thing

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My very point. God didn't specify and man does not have the authority. :neutral

Then why do you differentiate between making a sacrifice for sin, for example, and 'do not steal'?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is it so important to you to somehow prove that gentiles are under the Law of Moses? If you witness to a gentile would you say to them, if you don't wear a tzitzit you are condemned and need a Savior? Even a Messianic Jew would never say such a thing to a gentile.

You misunderstand my argument.

I'm not arguing for being under the law of Moses the way Paul condemns. Not being under the law does not mean the people of God have no obligation to fulfill and uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses by their faith in Christ. But so many in the church think grace means a complete and utter separation from the expected and obligatory obedience to fulfill and uphold the righteousness found in the law of Moses that their faith has attached to it--that obedience now becoming an optional thing that only determines their rewards in the kingdom. Which, by the way, seems to be of little to no motivation to the church to pursue works of faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Then why do you differentiate between making a sacrifice for sin, for example, and 'do not steal'?

I do make a sacrifice for sin, I repent.
That's what the blood sacrifices were for, repentance. Drawing near to God in righteousness.
I know my repentance is not perfect and will not save me from condemnation, so I need a Savior who did make the perfect sacrifice for my sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do make a sacrifice for sin, I repent.
That's what the blood sacrifices were for, repentance. Drawing near to God in righteousness.
I know my repentance is not perfect and will not save me from condemnation, so I need a Savior who did make the perfect sacrifice for my sin.

Excellent. Keep in this vein of thought and you'll understand exactly what I've been saying about the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

You differentiate between the laws of Moses dividing them up into non-literal and literal observances, yet fulfill the law of Moses to God's complete and total satisfaction nonetheless--not nullify it by replacing it with another 'law' that you keep instead.

 

[Deborah13]

You misunderstand my argument.

I'm not arguing for being under the law of Moses the way Paul condemns.

You misunderstand as well. A Messianic Jew does not wear the tzitzit or eat kosher to be justified by it. They do it because it is an expression of their love for God. Or because in their heart it is a sin for them not to. But they would not tell a gentile it is necessary for them to do because they understand that the gentiles were never given Moses' Law. If a gentile chooses to because it is in his heart then he is free to do that.

Not being under the law does not mean the people of God have no obligation to fulfill and uphold the righteousness of the law of Moses by their faith in Christ.

lol, that is correct, and "if there be any other law of God." Paul uses the phrase somewhere.

But so many in the church think grace means a complete and utter separation from the expected and obligatory obedience to fulfill and uphold the righteousness found in the law of Moses that their faith has attached to it--that obedience now becoming an optional thing that only determines their rewards in the kingdom. Which, by the way, seems to be of little to no motivation to the church to pursue works of faith.

I do understand your heart felt concern, I do. But I can't divert from what I see the word says in order to try to keep people on the straight path. I would ask such a person if they truly love God, because if they are living a lifestyle that hurts others or themselves, they are hurting the God they say they love. One of the purposes of grace is to help us not to sin so how can grace also be saying it is ok to sin. Those two things are not compatible. Grace says, but if you do sin you have a mediator. Praise God for that because we all do sin.

 

[Obadiah]

From what I can decipher from Iwrecknsow's OP the theological topic of his thread DO YOU KNOW THE LORD? (we have to keep the OT law, we have to keep the OT sabbath, etc) seems to be the same as the current thread Is The Law of God Still in Force Today? so I am combining these two threads.

 

[Deborah13]

Excellent. Keep in this vein of thought and you'll understand exactly what I've been saying about the law of Moses in this New Covenant.

You differentiate between the laws of Moses dividing them up into non-literal and literal observances, yet fulfill the law of Moses to God's complete and total satisfaction nonetheless--not nullify it by replacing it with another 'law' that you keep instead.

I do not divide them up.
I don't need to. Jesus filled them all perfectly and completely, which I could never do.
The two commands the Jesus did give to all those in Him are what tells me what I must and must not do to please Him. If I mess up, then I need to repent, change my mind, and obey.

I did not grow up in the church as you did. I didn't understand the Bible, even though I read many of Jesus' words. But I did grow up, thanks to the old fashioned New England school system where we said the Lord's Prayer every morning and the Golden Rule was taught.
"Do onto others as you would have them do onto you."
Our Father who art in heaven, holy be thy name.....Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

What more does one need to tell them that they should not steal, lie, cheat, or to ignore others in need, etc? What more does one need to tell them that if they do/don't them they have not obeyed God?

One would have to close their eyes, plug their ears, and bow their neck, NOT to get it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You misunderstand as well. A Messianic Jew does not wear the tzitzit or eat kosher to be justified by it. They do it because it is an expression of their love for God. Or because in their heart it is a sin for them not to. But they would not tell a gentile it is necessary for them to do because they understand that the gentiles were never given Moses' Law. If a gentile chooses to because it is in his heart then he is free to do that.

And you think that I am arguing that the gentiles have to wear tzitzits and eat kosher? Do you think that I believe the requirement to uphold and fulfill the law of Moses through faith in Christ means literally keeping the literal first covenant worship methods? The people of God under the old covenant did that. Not being under the law as a covenant does not mean the righteous requirements of the law do not have to be fulfilled. It means you do not have to fulfill the literal first covenant worship methods and timetables in that old literal way.

lol, that is correct, and "if there be any other law of God." Paul uses the phrase somewhere.

"9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in thissaying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

And so you are trying to make what argument?

I do understand your heart felt concern, I do. But I can't divert from what I see the word says in order to try to keep people on the straight path. I would ask such a person if they truly love God, because if they are living a lifestyle that hurts others or themselves, they are hurting the God they say they love. One of the purposes of grace is to help us not to sin so how can grace also be saying it is ok to sin. Those two things are not compatible. Grace says, but if you do sin you have a mediator. Praise God for that because we all do sin.

Deborah, the problem is the church, in general, has changed the grace of God into a license to sin. And it all comes from the gross misunderstanding that what Paul meant by salvation not being by works of the law is that you do not have to be concerned about works of the law.

The deceit being in thinking that the faith that justifies is the faith that does NOT have to express itself in righteous works of the law because salvation is so utterly not of you and what you do. That is NOT what the Bible says. But generation upon generation upon generation of ear tickling teaching has swept through the church like leaven through a lump of dough deceiving people into thinking that the faith that justifies is the faith that can exist all alone with no works attached.

That doesn't mean faith all by itself can't justify. It means the faith that justifies, all by itself, has an expected and obligatory outcome, like going swimming has the expected and obligatory outcome of getting wet. Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that loves. Wake up, church! A person is deceived if they think they can have the faith that doesn't love and think they have the faith that justifies.