Is The Law of God Still in Force Today ?/Matthew 5:17,18

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not divide them up.

Yes, you do, Deborah. You obviously have passed a judgment between what you must literally do in regard to the righteous requirements of the law and what you do not.

When you are faced with the commandment 'do not lie', for example, even you know that you have to literally fulfill that command yourself. Jesus did not do that for you, and he's not going to do that for you. You have to do it. And when considering whether or not you have to keep a literal Passover you know you DON'T have to literally fulfill that command yourself because Jesus did that for you. You have indeed divided up the law whether you realize it or not. And it's no different of a dividing up of the law that I do, but which you condemn me for doing.

 

[Deborah13]

And you think that I am arguing that the gentiles have to wear tzitzits and eat kosher? Do you think that I believe the requirement to uphold and fulfill the law of Moses through faith in Christ means literally keeping the literal first covenant worship methods? The people of God under the old covenant did that. Not being under the law as a covenant does not mean the righteous requirements of the law do not have to be fulfilled. It means you do not have to fulfill the literal first covenant worship methods and timetables in that old literal way.

Nope.

"9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in thissaying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

And so you are trying to make what argument?

Yup, Torah = Commandment, Law, teaching, instruction
But not to make an argument, but that is how I see it. It doesn't matter through whom or when God gave His teaching, it is righteous, holy, and good and always points to the 2 that Jesus gave to us.
That's all, simple.

Deborah, the problem is the church, in general, has changed the grace of God into a license to sin. And it all comes from the gross misunderstanding that what Paul meant by salvation not being by works of the law is that you do not have to be concerned about works of the law.

The deceit being in thinking that the faith that justifies is the faith that does NOT have to express itself in righteous works of the law because salvation is so utterly not of you and what you do. That is NOT what the Bible says. But generation upon generation upon generation of ear tickling teaching has swept through the church like leaven through a lump of dough deceiving people into thinking that the faith that justifies is the faith that can exist all alone with no works attached.

That doesn't mean faith all by itself can't justify. It means the faith that justifies, all by itself, has an expected and obligatory outcome, like going swimming has the expected and obligatory outcome of getting wet. Paul said the faith that justifies is the faith that loves. Wake up, church! A person is deceived if they think they can have the faith that doesn't love and think they have the faith that justifies.

It's funny how each of us hears things so differently. I don't hear want you hear coming from the Reformers or from the grace preachers that I have heard.
I hear grace helps one to overcome sin, not live in it.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes, you do, Deborah. You obviously have passed a judgment between what you must literally do in regard to the righteous requirements of the law and what you do not.

When you are faced with the commandment 'do not lie', for example, even you know that you have to literally fulfill that command yourself. Jesus did not do that for you, and he's not going to do that for you. You have to do it. And when considering whether or not you have to keep a literal Passover you know you DON'T have to literally fulfill that command yourself because Jesus did that for you. You have indeed divided up the law whether you realize it or not. And it's no different of a dividing up of the law that I do, but which you condemn me for doing.

You love God, I know you are a righteous man. Who am I to condemn you if Christ does not.

Maybe I can give an analogy that will explain my view, it doesn't have to be your view though.
You live in Florida and I live in Colorado. I decide to build a house. I don't need to concern myself with the building codes in Florida only those in Colorado. I am not obligated to fulfill the codes of Florida even though some of them may be the same codes found in Colorado codes.
Florida's codes are filled with details that are only relevant to Florida, hurricanes, flood, etc.
When you get a building permit you are in covenant with the state of Florida and me with Colorado.
So I just study the codes of Colorado and do what it says to do and I don't need your codes with Florida for anything. If however, there is something in your building code that I would like to incorporate in my home I can do that as long as it doesn't go against something in my building code.

Maybe the problem is not how people are understanding grace but how they understand what freedom means. One man's freedom can cause another man's oppression, that is wrong. Even freedom has boundaries.

Sheesh...we do go round and round don't we. What we need to remember is that because you see it one way and I see it another we do not condemn each other. We are the children of the Lord and I don't want either one of us to get in trouble for being contentious.
And yes, I'm more afraid of God than Reba.

 

[JLB]

For some reason you got in your mind to go gunning for me, and that's why you can't hear a word I say in these forums.

The people of God (where there is no more distinction between Jew and gentile--the one you keep making).

Everybody joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit has been delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in them because the sin nature that was subject to that arousal has died. That hardly means what so many people in the church believe, that deliverance from the law means we don't have to satisfy the righteous requirements of the law--because salvation is so utterly not of me, lol.

I hear you changing what the scripture actually says, and adding your words to the scripture to "come up with" and "prop up" your own doctrine


Jethro said -

Everybody joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit has been delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in them because the sin nature that was subject to that arousal has died.


The scripture says -

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

Delivered from the law itself and in it's entirety.


The scripture says -

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Galatians 4:4

He redeemed, He purchased with His own Blood, those who were under the law...that they might be delivered from the law.


God has made the law Obsolete, having nailed it to the cross He has taken it out of the way.


JLB



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You love God, I know you are a righteous man. Who am I to condemn you if Christ does not.

Maybe I can give an analogy that will explain my view, it doesn't have to be your view though.
You live in Florida and I live in Colorado. I decide to build a house. I don't need to concern myself with the building codes in Florida only those in Colorado. I am not obligated to fulfill the codes of Florida even though some of them may be the same codes found in Colorado codes.
Florida's codes are filled with details that are only relevant to Florida, hurricanes, flood, etc.
When you get a building permit you are in covenant with the state of Florida and me with Colorado.
So I just study the codes of Colorado and do what it says to do and I don't need your codes with Florida for anything. If however, there is something in your building code that I would like to incorporate in my home I can do that as long as it doesn't go against something in my building code.

Maybe the problem is not how people are understanding grace but how they understand what freedom means. One man's freedom can cause another man's oppression, that is wrong. Even freedom has boundaries.

Sheesh...we do go round and round don't we. What we need to remember is that because you see it one way and I see it another we do not condemn each other. We are the children of the Lord and I don't want either one of us to get in trouble for being contentious.
And yes, I'm more afraid of God than Reba.

I understand your point about personal convictions, but in addressing what we've been talking about here about the law the problem with what you say is there is no Florida and Colorado, that is, Jew and gentile in the kingdom of God.

You still give me the impression that you think I keep the literal Mosaic first covenant, which I don't. The point is, the law of Moses gets fulfilled and upheld by all of God's people by their faith--not some by me, and some by you and others based on natural lineage. The law didn't get abolished in favor of another law that leaves the law of Moses abolished and nullified (by virtue of it not being kept or upheld).

Just because various first covenant worship procedures and timetables don't get literally kept by us in this New Covenant doesn't mean 1) those things don't get fulfilled in this New Covenant, and 2) the law of Moses is no longer the righteousness that the people of God are to uphold. But that is exactly what so many in the church think. Which effectively nullifies and abolishes and destroys the law, which Christ said he did not come to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It doesn't matter through whom or when God gave His teaching, it is righteous, holy, and good and always points to the 2 that Jesus gave to us.
That's all, simple.

It is that simple, but if people understood that it is when you 'keep' those two commandments you are 'keeping' the other ones in the law of Moses, not abolishing them in favor of a new and different law, they'd end this ridiculous rant about the law of Moses no longer being relevant to the people of God.

The law as a covenant is what ended. Not the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law of Moses. In fact, by virtue of what it means to 'have faith', faith demands the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law of Moses.

It's funny how each of us hears things so differently. I don't hear want you hear coming from the Reformers or from the grace preachers that I have heard.
I hear grace helps one to overcome sin, not live in it.

Right here in this forum when you bring up the obligation that faith in Christ has they say, "Shutty! I'm under grace. Salvation has nothing to do with what I do or think."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro said -

Everybody joined to Christ through the Holy Spirit has been delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in them because the sin nature that was subject to that arousal has died.

"5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." (Romans 7:5 NASB)

It is while you were still in the flesh, married to the sin nature that the law acted liked a marriage contract that kept you bound to sinful flesh. But now that you are no longer in the flesh the law can't do that anymore. That is what we have been delivered from concerning the law--it's power to enforce our relationship with sinful flesh and condemn us for it.

The scripture says -

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

Delivered from the law itself and in it's entirety.

You are the one making the Bible say what you want it to say. We were delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in us. Why? Because that happened while we were still in the flesh. (Read the verse I just posted above.)

If you want to interpret 'delivered from the law' as meaning we are delivered from any responsibility for faith to uphold and fulfill the righteousness of the law you are directly contradicting what Paul said:

"31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be!" (Romans 3:31 NASB)

"8 ...he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 10 ...love is the fulfillment of the law. "
(Romans 13:8,10 NASB)

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:14 NASB)

But your doctrine has the law nullified and not fulfilled by us, but rather disposed of, in order to uphold and fulfill another law. That's a direct contradiction to the plain words of the Bible.

The scripture says -

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Galatians 4:4

He redeemed, He purchased with His own Blood, those who were under the law...that they might be delivered from the law.

God has made the law Obsolete, having nailed it to the cross He has taken it out of the way.

Now ask yourself, why would Paul say, as you suggest, that the fulfilling and the upholding of the law got taken out of the way and made obsolete? He plainly says obedient faith fulfills and upholds the law! So, obviously, that is not what got taken out of the way. So what did get taken out of the way? The condemnation of the law, of course. Because you now uphold and fulfill it by your faith in Christ and aren't condemned by it anymore!

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

"5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death." (Romans 7:5 NASB)
It is while you were still in the flesh, married to the sin nature that the law acted liked a marriage contract that kept you bound to sinful flesh. But now that you are no longer in the flesh the law can't do that anymore. That is what we have been delivered from concerning the law--it's power to enforce our relationship with sinful flesh and condemn us for it.

The scripture says -

But now we have been delivered from the law...


Jethro says -

We were delivered from the power of the law to arouse sin in us.




5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.


aroused by the law...

delivered from the law...




Why are you afraid to say those who were under the law, were delivered from the law?

Delivered from the law.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why are you afraid to say those who were under the law, were delivered from the law?

Delivered from the law.


JLB

I'm not afraid to say we were delivered from the law. We have been delivered from the condemnation of the law, not from the fulfilling and upholding of the law that Paul plainly says we do with our faith in Christ. We have not been delivered from that.

If you want to continue to insist that we have been delivered from fulfilling and upholding the law of Moses you will look silly.

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Now ask yourself, why would Paul say, as you suggest, that the fulfilling and the upholding of the law got taken out of the way and made obsolete? He plainly says obedient faith fulfills and upholds the law! So, obviously, that is not what got taken out of the way. So what did get taken out of the way? The condemnation of the law, of course. Because you now uphold and fulfill it by your faith in Christ and aren't condemned by it anymore!

The 10 Commandments, which Paul refers to as the law, is satisfied when we love our neighbor.

Love does no wrong.


For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


The Law and the Prophets are summed up in Love God and Love your neighbor.


If there is a family in our our neighborhood that is in need of help, and we take them some of our food, which is some pulled pork bar b que sandwiches.


Are we operating in love?

Is eating pork a sin?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not afraid to say we were delivered from the law. We have been delivered from the condemnation of the law, not from the fulfilling and upholding of the law that Paul plainly says we do with our faith in Christ. We have not been delivered from that.

If you want to continue to insist that we have been delivered from fulfilling and upholding the law of Moses you will look silly.

If you are not afraid of saying we are delivered from the law, then why didn't you just say it.

You said - We have been delivered from the condemnation of the law...

You said - we have been delivered from the power of the law...


The scripture says we have been delivered from the law!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

Now ask yourself, why would Paul say, as you suggest, that the fulfilling and the upholding of the law got taken out of the way and made obsolete?

Now you have phrases from two different scriptures.


Take one scripture and ask a question.

That is part of the problem.

When you add "your words" to what the scripture says, and then blend together several scriptures that mean different things, and discard the fact that the Law of Moses was not given to the nations, and combine it all together, you get "Jethro Bodine Stew", not scripture.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are not afraid of saying we are delivered from the law, then why didn't you just say it.

We have been delivered from the law.

 

[JLB]

We have been delivered from the law.

But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

... to redeem those who were under the law.

The children of Israel.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now you have phrases from two different scriptures.


Take one scripture and ask a question.

That is part of the problem.

When you add "your words" to what the scripture says, and then blend together several scriptures that mean different things, and discard the fact that the Law of Moses was not given to the nations, and combine it all together, you get "Jethro Bodine Stew", not scripture.


JLB

God gave the law to his people. A people composed of both Jew and gentile.

God's people, to this day, uphold and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law through their obedient faith in Christ, not nullify it as your doctrine does to the law of Moses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... to redeem those who were under the law.

The children of Israel.

A people composed of both Jew and gentile.

 

[JLB]

I'm not afraid to say we were delivered from the law. We have been delivered from the condemnation of the law, not from the fulfilling and upholding of the law that Paul plainly says we do with our faith in Christ. We have not been delivered from that.

If you want to continue to insist that we have been delivered from fulfilling and upholding the law of Moses you will look silly.

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Romans 7:4

The Body who died is the body of Christ.

The One who was raised from the dead was the body of Christ.

Not your body. The Body of Christ.

You were never "married" to your own body, furthermore you still are wearing your body that is the same body you were born with.

Finally, Paul makes it clear that what he is writing pertains to those who were under the law, and know the law.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

The natural Children of Israel, or any gentiles who had joined that Covenant through physical circumcision and compliance with the literal law of Moses.

Those are the ones who were redeemed from the law of Moses.

Those are the ones who were delivered from the law of Moses.

Furthermore, Paul is inoculating the gentile Christians from the poison of the believing Jews who were trying to bring them under the law of Moses.

Paul is teaching teach them partake of the leaven of the believing Pharisee's who were hell bent on bringing the gentile Christians under the law of Moses and teaching them that they must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.


This them is constantly seen throughout all of Paul's letters.


JLB

 

[JLB]

God gave the law to his people. A people composed of both Jew and gentile.

God's people, to this day, uphold and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law through their obedient faith in Christ, not nullify it as your doctrine does to the law of Moses.

God Himself delivered those who were under the law, from the law.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14 KJV

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God Himself delivered those who were under the law, from the law.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14 KJV

And let me guess....you can't see from this verse that not being under the law means not being under the dominion of the law, right?

 

[JLB]

God gave the law to his people. A people composed of both Jew and gentile.

God's people, to this day, uphold and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law through their obedient faith in Christ, not nullify it as your doctrine does to the law of Moses.

Are trying to teach Christians that they are required to keep an Obsolete law, that those who were actually under, were delivered and redeemed from.