Is the rapture Biblical?

[Dave Slayer]

Is the rapture Biblical? Is this video presenting the rapture in a Biblical like fashion?

[youtube:7phihg5j]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLhyPjHVes[/youtube:7phihg5j]

 

[follower of Christ]

I believe that the 'rapture' is what scripture calls the 'day of the Lord'.
I believe that scripture shows that this will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation, just before God pours out His wrath on unrepentant man.

 

[david_james]

The Rapture will be before tribulation.

 

[Dave Slayer]

The Rapture will be before tribulation.

But will it happen as it is portrayed in this video?

 

[radorth]

I don't think so. I can find no early church references to it and it's a bit of a stretch of scripture. The "rapture" doctrine was invented about 1800 as I recall. One problem: we assume that "one will be taken and the other left" means the rapture, when it could also mean that the one "taken" is taken where no one wishes to go, when Jesus returns to rule. I don't say that is my doctrine at all, but it just isn't clear.

The doctrine of purgatory has more scripture behind it, and far more early father support.



By the way, what is that old dusty wooden thing over there, with the ropes and wheels on it?

 

[david_james]

[quote="david_james":2f4t94g3]The Rapture will be before tribulation.

But will it happen as it is portrayed in this video?[/quote:2f4t94g3]
pretty much except for lightning

 

[John]

The Rapture will be before tribulation.

:amen

 

[Solo]

According to Jesus the gathering of His chosen from one end of heaven to the other will be after the tribulation wrought upon the Jews and the Church by the son of perdition, the antichrist who sets himself up as God in the temple. Notice what Jesus says concerning the immediate time after the Great Tribulation in verses 29-31:

• 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

What tribulation is Jesus speaking of? The same one that he mentions as the Great Tribulation such as "was not since the beginning of the world to this time ... nor ever shall be." in verse 21:

• 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:21-27

The gathering of God's chosen, His elect, will be after the Great Tribulation poured out on God's people by satan himself when the abomination of desolation is revealed. Notice also that the abomination of desolation takes place prior to the Great Tribulation:

• 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

In order to believe the pretribulation "secret rapture" teaching, one must totally ignore Matthew 24 as Jesus teaching us about the sign of His "coming", and the "end of the world".

Also, Matthew 24 lines up perfectly with Revelation, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, Zechariah 14, and Daniel when it discusses the end time events to come upon the earth before our gathering together to meet the Lord in the air.

The "secret rapture" teaching is not found any where in the Scriptures.

 

[Cornelius]

I believe that the 'rapture' is what scripture calls the 'day of the Lord'.
I believe that scripture shows that this will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation, just before God pours out His wrath on unrepentant man.

This is scriptural and correct.

Luk 17:26 And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, even so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


So Jesus tells us to look at how it worked during the first "rapture":

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after the seven days (Tribulation 7 years), that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth. (After the seven days, the day of the Lord starts and then the ark (Rapture) lifts off )

 

[Cornelius]

Solo wrote this, but its worth repeating because it is so easy to understand this scripture:


Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation ..........And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Jon-Marc]

The Rapture will be before tribulation.

Yes, the Lord returns "in the air" and doesn't set foot on the earth as described in 1 Thess. 4:16,17. Immediately AFTER the tribulation He will return to the earth and remove all unsaved and cast them into hell as described in Matt. 24 (often erroneously used in reference to the Rapture), bind Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit (Rev. 20:2,3) and then set up His 1,000 year reign on earth.

 

[Drew]

(Post 1 of 2)

I do not think that Paul ever intended his readers to conclude that God will take believers away from the earth. Here is the famous 1 Thess 4 passage:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

I suggest that Paul never intended for his readers to take this as a literal description of what will happen - the above is simply a different way of describing what is said in 1 Cor 15:23-27 and 51-54:

Here is the material from 1 Cor

But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

In the 23-27 block, Paul speaks about the time of the resurrection of the dead. Then, in the 51 - 54 block, He tells us what will happen to those who are not dead at the time of His coming - they will be transformed.

These are clearly the same events as in the 1 Thess 4 passage - we have the trumpet in both, we have the resurrection in both. But whereas in the Thess text, he speaks of those presently alive being "snatched up in the air", in the Corinthians text he sees them as being transformed.

However, it would seem rather clear that there can only be a single “fate†for those who are alive. Granted, it is characterized somewhat differently in the 1 Thess text as in the 1 Cor 15 text. But, given the trumpet is present in both contexts and the resurrection of the dead is present in both contexts, we really must conclude that there is an equivalence between “being transformed†(as per the 1 Cor 15 material) and “being caught in the air†(as per the 1 Thess text). There are simply too many factors in common between the 1 Cor 15 context and the 1 Thess 4 context to allow us to see the “transformation†as being an event other than the same event described as being “caught up in the airâ€Â.

In simplified form we have:

1 Cor 15: Trumpet -> resurrection of dead -> transformation of the living
1 Thess 4: Trumpet -> resurrection of dead -> catching up of the living

If the standard “rapture†view is to be sustained, we are left with the following puzzle: We have 2 different events (the “rapture†of 1 Thess 4 and the transformation of 1 Cor 15) both accompanied by a trumpet blast and the raising of the dead.

But the raising of the dead is a single discrete event in time. It only happens once. So this really does force us to see the “transformation†as being the same event as the “catching up of the livingâ€Â. Paul is using the “caught up in the air†image to represent the transformation that will take place in the bodies of those who are alive at the time of the resurrection.

In the next post, I will offer thoughts as towhy Paul gives this particular image of “being caught up in the air†and how it can see to be a complex metaphor.

 

[Drew]

Post 2 of 2

So why does Paul, in 1 Thess 4, talk about "snatching the saints away". I think that Paul is metaphorically alluding to three other stories - the story of Moses coming down the mountain, the story of Daniel 7, where the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds to sit with God in glory, and finally the practice of that time of going out to meet the emperor at some distance from the city.

I suggest that when we look at these stories, it will become apparent that Paul never intended his readers to take the "snatching up in the air" reference literally. And this is not really surprising, Paul represents the final destination of resurrected man as being earth. If God really snatches people directly into heaven, He must then bring them back - a possible scenario perhaps, but it sounds a little odd. And as I think we can see, the 1 Thess 4 text is really metaphorical.

The first element of the metaphor is Moses coming down the mountain - the trumpet sounds and a loud verse is heard (these 2 elements are also in the 1 Thess 4 account - I do not think this is co-incidental, Paul knows his Old Testament) and then, after a long wait, Moses descends the mountain.

The second element of the metaphor is Daniel 7 in which the persecuted people of God are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up on the clouds (note the parallel to the 1 Thess story) to sit with God in glory. This "raising up on the clouds" which Jesus applies to himself in the gospels is now applied by Paul to the Christians who are presently suffering persecution. Note these references from 1 Thess to the church under persecution:

(1:6) You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

(2:14) you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,...

(3:3) that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them.

The third element is the historical practice for people to respond to a visit from an emperor by going out to meet him at some distance from the city.

When Paul speaks of "meeting" the Lord "in the air", the point is precisely not - as in the popular rapture theology - that the saved believers would then stay up in the air somewhere, away from earth.

The point is that, having gone out to meet their returning Lord, they will escort him royally into his domain, that is back to the place they came from.

 

[Solo]

• 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout. Not a secret rapture.
...with the voice of the archangel (Michael?) Not a secret rapture.
...with the trump of God. Not a secret rapture.

Those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected from the dead into their new glorified bodies before those who remain alive on the earth are changed to meet the Lord in the air.

• 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

In a moment (twinkling of an eye) we who are in Christ Jesus will all be changed at His coming.

At the Last Trump. Not a secret rapture.
The corrupt will put on incorruption and the mortal will put on immortality when the dead in Christ are resurrected.

• 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Paul writes to the believers at Thessalonica concerning the coming of Jesus Christ and what would happen. When Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, He will then take vengeance on those who do not know God, and have refused to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. They will then be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. All this happens when he comes to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in "ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE ... IN THAT DAY".

• 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-11

Do not be deceived by any who speak falsehoods concerning the coming of Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him!!!

For that day, the day of His coming, WILL NOT COME UNTIL there comes a falling away from the truth, AND THE MAN OF SIN, THE SON OF PERDITION BE REVEALED. HE opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God in the Temple of God showing himself that he is God.

Many believe that the Great Tribulation is the time where the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers, but the Great Tribulation is the persecution by the son of perdition upon those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus. After this Great Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the voice of the archangel at the last trump to redeem His chosen before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers. In Matthew 24, Jesus was teaching the disciples whom He commanded to teach all nations to observe whatsoever things that He taught them, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus was not teaching those under the Mosaic Covenant concerning His coming and the end of the world. It is a plain teaching of His return in Matthew 24, and to discount that as being truth concerning His coming for believers is absurd and sad.

Paul does not tell the Thessalonians one thing in one letter concerning the Coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and then another thing in a second letter concerning the Coming of Jesus Christ.

Be not deceived by any man by any means concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (see 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

 

[follower of Christ]

The Rapture will be before tribulation.

show me evidence.
Ive not seen a single thing in scripture to actually support that there will be any pretrib 'rapture'.
EVERY piece of evidence on the matter points to the Day of the Lord being this 'rapture' and that occurs towards the end of the 7 years.

 

[follower of Christ]

Solo, fantastic posts.

I used to be pretrib before I actually broke into the scriptures and saw the evidence for myself.
In all actuality there isnt any real support for a pretrib rapture, but I think we fear it so much that we want to see one.

I generally avoid the topic, but I think its time to finally do a study about the Day of the Lord for my studies site.

 

[david_james]

here is a thread on another forum about Pre-tribulation Rapture

 

[follower of Christ]

Heres a start.
I'll post later once Ive got the time to finish the study


UNDER CONSTRUCTION

The 'Rapture' (The Day of the Lord)
wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
That the 'rapture' is actually the Day of the Lord spoken of in the New Testament and that it will be towards the end of the 7 year tribulation.


Supporting Evidence

Firstly we establish that the 'day of the Lord' is what comes as a 'thief in the night'.

(1Thess 5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

(2Peter 3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;

We see here that it is AFTER the tribulation of those days that the Son of Man appears.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He shall send His angels and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of heaven.
(Mar 13:24-27)

We see that it shall be then as it was in the day of Noah and of Sodom. The righteous are pulled out of harms way then sudden judgment comes.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of Man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
(Luk 17:26-30)

Here we see that the days of 'affliction' are shortened because of the elect, for their sake. They must be present and being afflicted for this to be accurate.

for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:21-22)

For in those days shall be affliction, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.
(Mar 13:19-20)

 

[Vic C.]

Michael (solo)

You said:

Many believe that the Great Tribulation is the time where the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers, but the Great Tribulation is the persecution by the son of perdition upon those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus. After this Great Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the voice of the archangel at the last trump to redeem His chosen before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers.

I pray more people would see this. For me, it's so obvious in scripture. It's a beautiful thing; it can be easily fit into the futurist's belief of a future 70th. week (i.e.-prewrath), or outside the confines of a literal seven year period! It's a non-confining Biblical truth that doesn't require fitting puzzle pieces into spots where they just don't belong.

God will rapture, remove, protect (whatever you flavor) His people... before His Wrath on an unbelieving world. We will not be harmed by it in any way, shape or form, our whole body and soul (eyes, ears and everything) will be spared from His wrath.

However, there is no guarantee that anyone is safe from the persecutions of Evil One. It's all wishful thinking, IMO.

 

[Solo]

Michael (solo)

You said:

Many believe that the Great Tribulation is the time where the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers, but the Great Tribulation is the persecution by the son of perdition upon those who keep the commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus. After this Great Tribulation, Jesus Christ will return with the voice of the archangel at the last trump to redeem His chosen before the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelievers.

I pray more people would see this. For me, it's so obvious in scripture. It's a beautiful thing; it can be easily fit into the futurist's belief of a future 70th. week (i.e.-prewrath), or outside the confines of a literal seven year period! It's a non-confining Biblical truth that doesn't require fitting puzzle pieces into spots where they just don't belong.

God will rapture, remove, protect (whatever you flavor) His people... before His Wrath on an unbelieving world. We will not be harmed by it in any way, shape or form, our whole body and soul (eyes, ears and everything) will be spared from His wrath.

However, there is no guarantee that anyone is safe from the persecutions of Evil One. It's all wishful thinking, IMO.

Exactly! And thank you.