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Is the soul immortal?

Is the soul immortal?

  • yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • not sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    19
jgredline said:
Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you…

So clearly Paul again makes a clear distinction between body and Spirit which again affirms that the ‘’Wholeistic’’ view is not accurate…but affirms that the Christian is a Trichotomy….pay close attention to the word ‘’IF’’
No. The mere drawing of a distinction between body and spirit is not sufficient for concluding that the "wholistic" or monistic view is wrong. If an atheist who believes only in the the "physical world" says "My body is tired and worn but my soul is active and hopeful" he simply is not contradicting himself. He can say this and be true to his monistic conceptualization (which is not the same as my monistic conceptualization, by the way)

All the time, people use words like "spirit" and "soul" and distinguish them from the body (as in the example I have given). You argue as if the simple act of distinction warrants a conclusion that the soul / spirit can exist as an entity separate from the body. This is simply not a justified conclusion.

If I say "I like her body and her personality" does this mean that I think personalities exist without bodies? Obviously not.
 
Drew
I understand and hear where you are coming from, but the part you don't seem to understand is that the Spirit is GOD....If a person is not born again this person does not have the Spirit of God (noun) Once a person is born again this person receives (noun) the Holy Spirit...This is a separate entity....

If a person is not born again this person is dead...
Once a person is Born Again this person receives the Holy Spirit and is now Alive.....

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death [NO HS...]
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[ Has the HS ]
 
Could it be that only the unsaved are left in the grave until The White Throne Judgment and the saved have become immortal at the point of regeneration (Philippians 1:23)?
GMS
 
In case someone brings up the Lazarus account, please read this article first. Sorry, I do not have the persons last name:

The Rich Man and Lazarus – Luke 16:19-31


Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.


And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame."


But Abraham said, "Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."


And he said, "Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house – for I have five brothers – in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."


But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them."


But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!"


But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."




"Consider that this little tale might be an elaboration on the previously made statement: "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.†What if it was never meant to be an expose’ on the literal horrors of a burning hell but instead was a pointed story told in the form of contemporary religious mythology. Yes, mythology. After all, let’s not forget that Hades was part of Greek and Roman ignorance.


A few questions:

1.Did you ever wonder how the rich man from his location in Hades could look over and see Lazarus in “Abraham’s bosom�
2.And what kind of comfort would anyone find in “Abraham’s bosom†if they could simply look far away and see others suffering in flames?
3.Then do you really think those in hell, or Hades, would be talking to “Father Abraham�
4.And why do you think the story has the rich man addressing Abraham instead of God?
And would a “wicked†man even be concerned about his brothers?

I know answers have been constructed in view of such questions, but I have to wonder how we can be satisfied with any answer that overlooks the very meaning and reason behind the story itself. For the story so accurately describes the fallacies of the self-righteous religious man by portraying HIM in the role he has projected on everyone else. It is the same kind of set up that King David fell for when the prophet Nathan told him the story of the rich man who killed his poor neighbor’s pet lamb to serve his house guests. David becomes enraged and demands that the rich man should be put to death for such an atrocity. Nathan told him, “YOU are the man!†When David heard it he was cut to the heart, but these blind guides were all the more convinced that Jesus needed to die.


The wording of the story plays into the beliefs of the Pharisees. The very idea that the despised Lazarus would be carried by angels into “Abraham’s bosom†while the rich man – he who was after their likeness – merely “died and was buried†to wake up in Hades was a total assault to the very rightness of Scriptural accuracy as far as they were concerned. The Pharisees consistently scoffed at any suggestion that they were not “Abraham’s childrenâ€Â. Also, the “conversation†between a man in hell and Abraham in paradise was merely a rhetorical scene designed to highlight the fact that they had never believed Moses and the Prophets … and would not believe even if someone were to rise from the dead.

To them, Jesus was speaking pure absurdity … but the disciples were experiencing some incredible distinctions between life and religion.


By the way, any idea what this “great chasm†is?


Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:12-16)


The great chasm is the void between the mind of the world and the mind of God, not some barrier created by an impassable terrain. There is no crossing between the one and the other as the only possibility is to have miraculously been given the mind of Christ. Listen to what the disciples learned from Jesus and you find this same conclusion all throughout their writings.




Jim"
 
jgredline said:
Drew
I understand and hear where you are coming from, but the part you don't seem to understand is that the Spirit is GOD....If a person is not born again this person does not have the Spirit of God (noun) Once a person is born again this person receives (noun) the Holy Spirit...This is a separate entity....

If a person is not born again this person is dead...
Once a person is Born Again this person receives the Holy Spirit and is now Alive.....

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death [NO HS...]
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.[ Has the HS ]
Wow. This is taking some interesting turns.

You seem to be arguing that, at conversion, a separate "spirit" entity gets injected into the new believer. I thought you believed that each human person, saved or not, has a body and a spirit/soul. When the person is saved, is a second "spirit" injected into the person?

Can you please be as specific as you can about your view. I confess confusion. I will try to make my view clear as follows. Some of what follows is "new territory" for me and is a little speculative:

1. Human beings are not decomposable into parts that can exist independently from one another.

2. Words like "soul" and "spirit" variously refer to "the whole person", "cognitive functions", "life energy", "connection to God", "new nature" (the latter in respect to the use of the term "spirit" only), etc. While this list may be vague and / or incomplete, the important point is that I believe the words "soul" and "spirit", when used in relation to a human being never denote a consciousness bearing entity that can survive death of the body.

3. God is a non-physical entity. Unlike man, He does not need a body in order to exist. The Holy Spirit can also exist in a non-embodied form. Jesus, as well, can exist in a disembodied form - He became embodied 2000 + years ago.

4. When a person is born again and receives the Holy Spirit (I believe these events are synonymous), God reaches down and effects a kind of "transformation" whereby He alters us to be "receptive" to leading from the Godhead. This is properly called a "spiritual" event since we are indeed changed in respect to our ability to respond to the leading of God. But this is not a process where we are "injected" with some kind of "non-physical being" that now "lives inside" our bodies. We remain monistic, yet changed.

5. I see no conceptual problem with believing that a disembodied God (a "Spirit") can interact and influence a monistic human person. You seems to believe that in order for us to interact with a "Spirit" (God) we ourselves need to have a "spirit" of our own. I understand the appeal of such a position. However, I think such a position strays too far in the direction of making us "lesser versions of God" and I do not think this is correct. We are created beings and do not need to share such attributes of God as being "a spiritual being" in the sense that He is.

To be fair to you, I think that my position needs to be more fully worked out in order to "explain" how a monistic human person can be influenced by a God whose substance is "Spirit". I do not think this is a problem, but it might be.
 
GMS said:
Could it be that only the unsaved are left in the grave until The White Throne Judgment and the saved have become immortal at the point of regeneration (Philippians 1:23)?
GMS
You are correct, GMS; the unrighteous (the ones in Rev 20) are left. As for the second part; I'm not sure. I believe it is here 1 Corinthians 15:42-54.

1 Cor 15 is a great chapter. :angel:
 
Vic C. said:
You are correct, GMS; the unrighteous (the ones in Rev 20) are left. As for the second part; I'm not sure. I believe it is here 1 Corinthians 15:42-54.

1 Cor 15 is a great chapter. :angel:
I agree!! :smt023
 
Drew said:
Wow. This is taking some interesting turns.

You seem to be arguing that, at conversion, a separate "spirit" entity gets injected into the new believer. I thought you believed that each human person, saved or not, has a body and a spirit/soul. When the person is saved, is a second "spirit" injected into the person?

Can you please be as specific as you can about your view. I confess confusion. I will try to make my view clear as follows. Some of what follows is "new territory" for me and is a little speculative:

1. Human beings are not decomposable into parts that can exist independently from one another.

2. Words like "soul" and "spirit" variously refer to "the whole person", "cognitive functions", "life energy", "connection to God", "new nature" (the latter in respect to the use of the term "spirit" only), etc. While this list may be vague and / or incomplete, the important point is that I believe the words "soul" and "spirit", when used in relation to a human being never denote a consciousness bearing entity that can survive death of the body.

3. God is a non-physical entity. Unlike man, He does not need a body in order to exist. The Holy Spirit can also exist in a non-embodied form. Jesus, as well, can exist in a disembodied form - He became embodied 2000 + years ago.

4. When a person is born again and receives the Holy Spirit (I believe these events are synonymous), God reaches down and effects a kind of "transformation" whereby He alters us to be "receptive" to leading from the Godhead. This is properly called a "spiritual" event since we are indeed changed in respect to our ability to respond to the leading of God. But this is not a process where we are "injected" with some kind of "non-physical being" that now "lives inside" our bodies. We remain monistic, yet changed.

5. I see no conceptual problem with believing that a disembodied God (a "Spirit") can interact and influence a monistic human person. You seems to believe that in order for us to interact with a "Spirit" (God) we ourselves need to have a "spirit" of our own. I understand the appeal of such a position. However, I think such a position strays too far in the direction of making us "lesser versions of God" and I do not think this is correct. We are created beings and do not need to share such attributes of God as being "a spiritual being" in the sense that He is.

To be fair to you, I think that my position needs to be more fully worked out in order to "explain" how a monistic human person can be influenced by a God whose substance is "Spirit". I do not think this is a problem, but it might be.

Drew
In allot of ways you described how I believe but your hung up on monism...

Lets start with some basic theology...
Everyone agrees that we have physical bodies correct..... Most people (both Christians and non-Christians) sense that they also have an immaterial part a soul that will live on after their mortal bodies die.....When someone says they sold their soul to the devil, most don't have a clue what they are really saying, while other very much do know....
David Blane, Chris Angel and David Copperfield have all claimed to have made pacts with the devil for their souls and I believe them...Simply look at what they have done through the powers of darkness...''signs and wonders''hhhmmm where have we heard this before?


body + soul = dichotomy (This would be the none believer)
body + soul + Holy Spirit = trichotomy (This would be a believer)

Now before I go any further, I will point out that many theologians hold that we are all a dichotomy...In other words we are all born with a body and soul / spirit and when one becomes born again ''our'' spirit comes alive....This view is widely taught at most reformed seminaries and bible colleges...I do not have a problem with this view as there is much scripture support for it....

As for me, I hold to the view that we are born with a body and a soul and when we are born again ''we receive'' the Holy Spirit and thus become a Trichotomy...There is also much scripture support for this view and this view is taught in most Charismatic seminaries and bible colleges....

I have studied both views and I can accept either one....

The monastic or as you put it wholeistic view does not make any sense at all....It goes against what scripture teaches....
The idea that man cannot exist at all apart from a physical body, and therefore there can be no separate existence for any “soul†after the body dies (although this view can allow for the resurrection of the whole person at some future time). According to monism, the scriptural terms soul and spirit are just other expressions for the “person†himself, or for the person’s “life.â€Â

The problem with this view is that there are many scriptures that point to the Soul/spirit living on after the mortal body has passed...I will port them shortly....

I hope this helps clear up some confusion.....
 
Ok, I am home now and could write in peace...
Drew....Here are some verses that show the soul/spirit sepperate from the body...I will trust you to look up the context for your self....

Gen 35: 18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.


Ps 35:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.


Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Phillpians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now Drew...These verses and there are more, clearly show that the soul/spirit is seperate from the body.....This is nothing new as I have looked these or some of these up before and presented them to guibox and others only to have them ignored...What say thou?
 
jgredline said:
Most people (both Christians and non-Christians) sense that they also have an immaterial part a soul that will live on after their mortal bodies die
I gotta tell you, I have no such sense at all. When I introspect, I get a sense of an entirely unified being - no distinct parts at all.

jgredline said:
Now before I go any further, I will point out that many theologians hold that we are all a dichotomy...In other words we are all born with a body and soul / spirit and when one becomes born again ''our'' spirit comes alive....This view is widely taught at most reformed seminaries and bible colleges
I think we all know that most Christian theolgians do indeed hold the view that you have described (or at least something like it)

jgredline said:
I do not have a problem with this view as there is much scripture support for it....
I hold the opposing view - that the Scriptures do not support the existence of a multi-component human person.

jgredline said:
The monastic or as you put it wholeistic view does not make any sense at all....It goes against what scripture teaches....
I disagree - presumably the inquiring reader will judge the arguments on both sides and come to their own decision.
And I am not alone in my view. Here is a quote from NT Wright, the bishop of Durham:

Unlike Platonists, who preferred a disembodied immortality, those who believed in resurrection agreed with the ancient Israelites that real life meant embodied life.
 
Drew
So perhaps you can break down the scriptures I posted that show the soul being separate of the body....

As for the readers, I could not agree with you more...The fact you don't feel a distinct soul/spirit also says allot.
 
Drew said:
And I am not alone in my view. Here is a quote from NT Wright, the bishop of Durham:

Quote:
Unlike Platonists, who preferred a disembodied immortality, those who believed in resurrection agreed with the ancient Israelites that real life meant embodied life.

And don't forget Tyndale:

"And ye, in putting them (the departed souls) in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection ... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?

Dr. Joseph Priestley, after observing that many of the early reformers held to `soul-sleep', stated:


"Had it not been for the authority of Calvin, who wrote expressly against soul sleep, the doctrine of an intermediate conscious state would, in all probability, have been as effectually exploded as the doctrine of purgatory itself."

John Milton, the great sacred poet wrote:

"Inasmuch as the whole man uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces of these divisions), I will show, that in death,
first, the whole man, and
secondly, each component part,
suffers privation of life. ... The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment."

Archbishop John Tillotson of Canterbury stated:

"I do not find that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is anywhere expressly delivered in Scripture, but taken for granted."

Henry Layton was a member of the Anglican Faith. He said:

"... during life, we live and move in Christ; and when we die we rest and sleep in Him, in expectation of being raised at His second coming.

Bishop Edmund Law was the master of St. Peter's College, archdeacon of Staffordshire and bishop of Carlisle. He challenged the doctrine of a conscious intermediate state; held death to be a sleep, a negation of all life, thought, or action - a state of rest, silence and oblivion.

Dr. William Whiston was a Baptist theologian and professor of mathematics at Cambridge University and

"... denied the doctrine of eternal torment and held that the wicked would be totally destroyed."

Dr. John Tottie was the canon of Christ Church in Oxford and archdeacon of Worcester. He

"... opposed the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul."

Bishop Timothy Kendrick states in a sermon from 1805:


"The soul of man dies with the body, and is restored to life at the resurrection and second advent."

Dr. Amos Phelps, was a Methodist-Congregationalist clergyman and professor of Yale University, He wrote:

"This doctrine [of natural immortality] can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, and pagan philosophy, and a superstitious idolatry, to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrow it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels of Paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology: 'Ye shall not surely die.'"

Dr. Edward White was a Congregationalist pastor at St. Paul's Chapel and chairman of the Congregational Union. In 1883 he made it known:

"I steadfastly maintain, after 40 years of study of the matter, that it is the notion of the infliction of a torment in body and soul that shall be absolutely endless, which alone gives a foot of standing ground to Ingersol in America, or Bradlaugh in England. I believe more firmly than ever that it is a doctrine as contrary to every line of the Bible as it is contrary to every moral instinct of humanity."

Archbishop Richard Whately was archbishop of Dublin, Ireland and a professor at Oxford and principal. He taught the final destruction of the wicked and believed

"The wicked are never spoken of as being kept alive, but as forfeiting life."


Frederick W. Farrar was the canon of Westminster Abbey and the dean of Canterbury. he denounced the


"... dogma of endless, conscious suffering and could not find a single text in all Scripture that, when fairly interpreted, teaches the common views about endless torment."

Herman Olshausen was professor of theology at Königsberg, Ostpreussen in Germany. He wrote:

"The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and the name are alike unknown in the entire Bible."

Bishop John J. S. Perowne was a scholar of Hebrew and an Anglican Bishop of Worcester, England. He wrote:

"The immortality of the soul is neither argued nor affirmed in the Old Testament."

"The immortality of the soul is a phantom which eludes your eager grasp."

Dr. J. Agar Beet was a Wesleyan professor. He stated:


"The following pages are ... a protest against a doctrine which, during long centuries, has been almost universally accepted as divine truth taught in the Bible, but which seems to me altogether alien to it in both phrase and thought, and derived only from Greek Philosophy. Until recent times, this alien doctrine has been comparatively harmless. But, as I have here shown, it is now producing more serious results ..."

"It will of course be said, of this as of some other doctrines, that, if not explicitly taught in the Bible, it is implied and assumed there ... They who claim for their teaching the authority of God must prove that it comes from Him. Such proof in this case, I have never seen."

Dr. R. F. Weymouth was the headmaster of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech and a renowned Greek scholar. He said:


"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this." [7700]

In his book in a note on 1.Corinthians 15:18 he says:

"By `perish' the Apostle here apparently means `pass out of existence'."

On Hebrews 9:28 we read:

"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', `perish', to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad."

On Revelation 14:11:

"There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word `punishment' or `correction' in Matthew 25:46 gives itself no indication of time."

On Revelation 20:10:

"The Lake of fire implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction."

And the list goes on and on and on...

Protestant and Catholic clergyman, theologians, scholars from Baptist, Wesleyan, Reformed, Anglican, Reformers...all of them recognized that the doctirne of inate immortality and eternal torment is false, false, false.
 
Guibox

I see...We are now playing whos theologian list is longer?
Listen, you and I both know that if we get into that for every 1 theologian that you can come up with, I can come up with 5 or more....You know very well that only a small remnant of say 20% believe in the way you do. Those would be the JW, Christedelpihians, and oh Yes the SDA of which I believe you are one....
What do these denoms have in common? of yes, they made it unto all the cult watch list...Gee I wonder why :-?
 
I've thinking about this for a little while now and was wondering what ya'll thought. Does the Bible say we live forever regardless of our choice of Christ or not?

Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Where in the Bible do we see that we live forever no matter what our choice of Christ is? I never really thought about it before, is eternal life a gift or a fact of our creation?


And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

Does God destroy our soul in hell or does it exist forever in hell?

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36

How does one lose there soul?






and in many other places...

If we are awake after death, if the our soul is conscious, why would the Bible use the word sleep to describe this wakeful state?
Only Jesus, and his bride are given immortality J.
 
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