Is the soul immortal?

[jgredline]

gazzamor

Jude 5-7 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Context, context, context…….If one were to read verse 7 ‘’alone’’ one would think that the passage is speaking of physical cities…
First of all the cities of Soddom and Gamora are ‘’illustrations’’ as they are in 20 or so other passages through out the scriptures…Secondly what Jude is saying here is that the ‘’souls’’ of those folks who were in soddom and Gamora are facing the same eternal condemnation for basically the same sin of homosexuality as the Demons in Gen 6….
When one reads it in context and see Verse 5 and 6 this becomes clear…..

Now gazzamor..Tell me...Was Jesus telling the truth in Math 25:41-46?

 

[stranger]

Hi jg,

Yes Matt 25: 41 - 46 is the definitive passage for the two final states of man, the devil and his angels. All the elements are there: the lake of fire, eternal punishment and eternal life, the righteous, and the accused ones, as well as the devil and his angels. A complete picture. There is no need to go beyond the plain sense of what our Lord teaches.

That these words are among the hard sayings of Jesus and because of these words many will turn away and not follow Him - I have no doubt.

 

[jgredline]

Stranger...Yep, but soon enough you will have some guy in here forgetting the context of what Jesus was saying and claim that Jesus was using metaphors or something to that effect...

Keep up the good work and keep preaching the truth.... 8-)

 

[Drew]

Jg is right to consider context although, at best, context in the Jude passage is neutral in helping us decide what is being referred to. Despite the arguable "eternal torment" implications of verse 6, verse 5 operates against any interpretation that the Jude 7 text is talking about eternal torment of the unredeemed. Verse 5 of Jude establishes some context by referring to specific historical events where people were actually killed. There is, of course, nothing in the accounts of the fate of those who were killed to suggest that they are in eternal torment. So here context establishes that Jude is talking about normal "its all over" destruction. So perhaps we should look at what other Scriptures have to say.

I think that 2 Peter 2:6 closes the door on any argument that Jude 7 is referring to the eternal torment of the unredeemed.

"if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly"

As per 2 Peter 2:6, how does the reduction of the physical towns of S&G to ashes serve as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, if the ungodly are in fact never reduced to ashes, but instead preserved in a perpetual state of burning?

I'll wager a flagon of ale that no credible answer to this will be forthcoming.

Personally, I do not see how it possibly could be an example. The reason: the destruction of S&G fire is a proccess that terminates in ashes. If the unredeemed are not reduced to ashes, how can the S&G story truly be an example of a process of punishment that does not likewise come to an end. If event "A" is to be an example of a future event "B", one can hardly say this is so if A comes to an end and B goes on forever. This would simply make A and B too dissimilar.

 

[guibox]

Hi jg,

Yes Matt 25: 41 - 46 is the definitive passage for the two final states of man, the devil and his angels. All the elements are there: the lake of fire, eternal punishment and eternal life, the righteous, and the accused ones, as well as the devil and his angels. A complete picture. There is no need to go beyond the plain sense of what our Lord teaches.

That these words are among the hard sayings of Jesus and because of these words many will turn away and not follow Him - I have no doubt.

And stranger, were this the only scripture you had in the Bible to hang your hat upon (which most of those who preach traditionalism do along with Revelation 14:10-11), then you MIGHT be able to infer eternal torment on it. The Bible, however, gives us clear teaching on what this 'everlasting punishment' is.

- It is 'everlasting destruction' - Tell me how exactly can we have a continual process of destruction? If the wicked are being burned for eternity, nothing is 'destroyed' there IS not destruction for nothing can be broken down to basic matter if it is indestructible.

- It is 'death' and 'perishing'

- It is being 'reduced to ashes' - Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 2:9, Jude 7

- It is 'consuming away into smoke' - Psalm 37:20

Notice the use of the word 'consume' in Exodus 3:2 - Moses notice the burning bushburning continuall and the Bible says 'and the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED To 'burn continually and eternally' means to NOT be consumed. But the Bible says that this is not the fate of the wicked.

- It is the opposite, not the nasty equivalent of 'eternal life' - Romans 6:23; John 3:16-17; John 5:28-29; Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 25:46

stranger, this is the bottom line...if you are going to take the bible at its word as you are being enouraged to do you must come to the grips of its clear teaching on this point alone that one CANNOT dispute:

The wicked are not given eternal life in any form. This is a gift for the righteous. Being this so, then the wicked cannot burn eternally as a disembodied soul or in the body (and stranger, the bible makes it clear that the whole man 'body and soul' are cast into the lake of fire..how can the body burn eternally??)

You can dance all on two verses of the Bible and ignore the rest but this is not the way one should study the scriptures. One must take the whole and weigh the evidence, allowing the vague and metaphorical texts be explained by the clear ones.

 

[Drew]

One must take the whole and weigh the evidence, allowing the vague and metaphorical texts be explained by the clear ones.

I agree. And even if Matt 25:46 is viewed entirely in isolation from the rest of Scripture, one must remember that "eternal punishment" from Matt 25:46 can be understood as either of the following:

A. Eternal conscious torment
B. A state of punishment by non-existence that will persist forever.

I think that B is the correct interpretation for a number of reasons that I won't provide (unless asked) since I would simply be going over old ground.

But even if A were the only reasonable alternative, the weight of Scripture as a whole is devastatingly against the "eternal torment" position. I would think that 2 Peter 2:6 is so clear that, by itself, is more damaging to the "eternal torment" position than Matt 25:46 is to the "annihiliation" position. I can see no ambiguity at all in the 2 Peter text that is analogous to the ambiguity in the Matthew 25 text (the A vs B issue).

Given what the rest of Scripture teaches, a claim that Matt 25:46 supports eternal torment is akin to an alien from another planet concluding that human beings live forever simply because the alien observes Fred saying "I will love you forever" to Jane. Given the massive evidence from the data of life, the alien should conclude that Fred is speaking in a poetic fashion here.

 

[jgredline]

Drew and Guibox
I will be back this evening for the re buttles..Right now I just popped in to check things out, but am having to work and don't want to rush my answers...
Catch you on this topic in the evening.

 

[MarkT]

A. Eternal conscious torment
B. A state of punishment by non-existence that will persist forever.

I think that B is the correct interpretation for a number of reasons that I won't provide (unless asked) since I would simply be going over old ground.

But even if A were the only reasonable alternative, the weight of Scripture as a whole is devastatingly against the "eternal torment" position. I would think that 2 Peter 2:6 is so clear that, by itself, is more damaging to the "eternal torment" position than Matt 25:46 is to the "annihiliation" position. I can see no ambiguity at all in the 2 Peter text that is analogous to the ambiguity in the Matthew 25 text (the A vs B issue).

Given what the rest of Scripture teaches, a claim that Matt 25:46 supports eternal torment is akin to an alien from another planet concluding that human beings live forever simply because the alien observes Fred saying "I will love you forever" to Jane. Given the massive evidence from the data of life, the alien should conclude that Fred is speaking in a poetic fashion here.

The eternal punishment refers to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

2 Peter 2:6 is saying God destroyed the cities with fire. The cities, in this case, were the places that those men built for themselves to protect themselves but as it can be seen by their example, the cities offered the inhabitants no protection. And God rescued Lot from the fire. Just so, the righteous are rescued and the ungodly are kept under punishment until the day of judgment. The ungodly are cast into the hell of fire and, being without protection, they are tormented until the day of judgment. See Lazarus Luke 16:19-31

The second death is the lake of fire; the eternal punishment. Matthew 25:46

 

[gazzamor]

Jg, you just don’t get the fact that the bible is quite clear that the wicked perish and do not have eternal life, and miss out on immortality.

Perhaps I can bring in another text here which is probably the most quoted text in the NT. John 3:16.


Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice how Jesus contrasts perishing with eternal life. Quite often we gloss over the fact that those who refuse to believe in him (Jesus), will perish.

My dictionary says: to die, especially in a violent or untimely manner, to expire, to pass away.
There is no eternal life, a hellish existence in the flames, and, on the other hand, eternal life in heavenly bliss. Jesus contrasts the two. Those who believe in him are given the gift of eternal life and immortality when He comes again, those who don’t believe in him will perish, they will not receive eternal life or immortality.

Those who experience condemnation will be thrown in the lake of fire which devours them. The lake of fire is called the second death.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:15 All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Then I must conclude what Jesus said and meant in Matthew 25:46 that the eternal punishment spoken of here is: that the results of the punishment is eternal, those who experience it will not be able to come back from it, they will be eternally dead, devoured by the flames.

Again Jesus contrasts eternal life with perishing.

Jn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

You can’t have both the wicked and the righteous having eternal life or immortality, because that is not what Jesus meant. The righteous are always promised eternal life and immortality, but the wicked will perish in the lake of fire. They are opposites. The opposite to life is death. We believers are promised eternal life, the opposite to eternal life is eternal death.

God bless
gazzamor

 

[stranger]

guibox wrote:

Tell me how exactly can we have a continual process of destruction?

Eternal punishment. God's revelation has boundaries or limits. I stop at the words 'eternal punishment' without trying to understand the science of how it is possible or how it works.

It is being 'reduced to ashes' - Malachi 4:1-3, 2 Peter 2:9, Jude 7

It is 'consuming away into smoke' - Psalm 37:20

Notice the use of the word 'consume' in Exodus 3:2 - Moses notice the burning bushburning continuall and the Bible says 'and the bush WAS NOT CONSUMED To 'burn continually and eternally' means to NOT be consumed. But the Bible says that this is not the fate of the wicked.

It is the opposite, not the nasty equivalent of 'eternal life' - Romans 6:23; John 3:16-17; John 5:28-29; Daniel 12:1-2; Matthew 25:46

2 Peter 2:9, Jude 7 - no change on previous position.
The Malachi passage, I believe, speaks of two things: 1. a cleansing of the land of inheritence from the wicked. 2. points to the final judgment. Note that the ashes of the evildoer are under the feet of the righteous. When will this be? I think it refers to a day yet future when all Israel will be saved and everyone (in Israel will know the Lord from the least to the greatest.) But think about this: How are the ashes under the feet of the righteous?

Psalm 37, is about the inherited land and the removal of the wicked from it. v20 NASB 'They vanish - like smoke they vanish away' . . . Notice also the other references of describing what happens to the wicked. . . they fade, wither, are cut off etc.

In one sentence I would say the Psalm is about:

Don't be envious about the wicked they will be cut off from the land.

You wrote: 'To 'burn continually and eternally' means to NOT be consumed.'
I agree. 'But the Bible says that this is not the fate of the wicked.' The bible does not say this. This is your interpretation.

stranger, this is the bottom line...if you are going to take the bible at its word as you are being enouraged to do you must come to the grips of its clear teaching on this point alone that one CANNOT dispute:

The wicked are not given eternal life in any form. This is a gift for the righteous. Being this so, then the wicked cannot burn eternally as a disembodied soul or in the body (and stranger, the bible makes it clear that the whole man 'body and soul' are cast into the lake of fire..how can the body burn eternally??)

You can dance all on two verses of the Bible and ignore the rest but this is not the way one should study the scriptures. One must take the whole and weigh the evidence, allowing the vague and metaphorical texts be explained by the clear ones.

Lets be clear on what the bible does say and what is interpretation. I quote Matt25:46 NASB

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

You ask: How can the body burn eternally?? This question is not answered by God's revelation. There is a boundary prescribed. You need to realise what you are asking. This is the critical issue for you.

The second point concerns this with both you and Drew. References about turning to ashes INVARIABLY refer to historical events - lets call this the physical. The final judgment is a scenario still future. . . If we speak about the lake of fire - the scenario is eschatological end time stuff.

If you want to address the Malachi passage - please do so in a separate post as it is easier to stay on track that way. The same for the other scriptures quotes. Thanks for your response.

 

[guibox]

stranger, what you need to understand is the mindset of the Hebrews, what was revealed to them, how they interpreted it and what it means in the grand scheme of things.

The Hebrews didn't have a concept of a disembodied soul that could be burned eternally.

They understood death, punishment and rewards in the eschaetological kingdom of God, what we would call the new heaven and earth.

There was no 'judgement by fire on this earth' and 'judgment by eternal fire in the afterlife'. If you want to take all these references of 'judgment by fire' to strictly refer to this life and the body then you must conclude that all God's enemies have and will be destroyed by fire on this earth.

Hence, we must interpret Malachi as it was intended to be taken: the final 'day of the Lord' of judgment. What we would see unfolding in Revelation 20. This was the day when all was set right. It was the day of reckoning, judgment, rewards and punishment.

The fires that come out of heaven destroy completely the wicked so that as is shown in Psalms 37, they are 'consumed away into smoke'. They are brought to ashes. There is nothing left and it was as if they 'had not been' Obadiah 15-16).

This is the same judgment spoken of in 2 Peter 2:6 and 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 20.

You are trying to make this be 'physical' simply because it doesn't fit into the non-biblical concept of an immortal soul that can be punished for eternity.

You must allow the Bible to speak instead of trying to make it fit a preconceived notion that isn't supported by it to begin with.

 

[jgredline]

Jg, you just don’t get the fact that the bible is quite clear that the wicked perish and do not have eternal life, and miss out on immortality.

Actually, Your wrong and we will let the scriptures prove you wrong...Lets take a look a few things here...I am feeling quite good....Let me grab some : and lets get busy....

Perhaps I can bring in another text here which is probably the most quoted text in the NT. John 3:16.


Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice how Jesus contrasts perishing with eternal life. Quite often we gloss over the fact that those who refuse to believe in him (Jesus), will perish.

Ok, Lets take a ''real close look at this Verse..and the context in which it is presented...

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.â€Â
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.â€Â
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?â€Â
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.â€Â
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?â€Â
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€Â

Ok Gazz
By plucking out the single verse of John 3:16 you took it out of ''context''

First of all lets take a look at verse 1 and 2...Quickly we see that Nicodemus came to Jesus and said ''Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.â€Â...In the very next verse Jesus answers him with a statement that seemingly seems to suggest Jesus ignored what Nicodemus was saying and Jesus ''took'' control over the conversation and was in complete control over the context of what he wanted to discuss....Jesus tells Nicodemus ''Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.â€Â.......

Ok, So How did Nicodemus respond?...In verse four we see that Nicodemus was confused as you are...He thought Jesus was speaking of physical birth...

In verse 5 ''Jesus'' tells Nicodemus ''unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.''....Clearly Jesus is speaking of the spiritual realm here...Or do you believe we will march into heaven with our physical bodies??...

In verse 6 we See Jesus making a ''Clear distinction'' between the Flesh and the Spirit....Why do you suppose Jesus felt it necessary to be perfectly clear...Could it be for folks like you and Guibox who believed like Nicodemus?

In verses 7 and 8 Jesus continues to hammer it home that he is speaking of the Spiritual not the physical.... :smt075

In verse 9 we see that Nicodemus still does not get it...Sound familiar :wink:

In verses 10 through 15, ''Jesus is flat rebuking Nicodemus''..I will let you figure out why, but will give you a hint...He is supposed to be a teacher...The question here is, what kind of teacher are you? :wink:

So not we get to verse 16....Perish (ἀπόλλυμι) does not mean annihilation but a final destiny of “ruin†in hell apart from God....Now down below you would have noticed that I provided you with the Greek word for parish in a simple manner that a 3rd grader can understand....I have provided you with the context of the ''entire' conversation and clearly you can see that Jesus is speaking of the spiritual...What will parish is the physical body, while the soul will go to eternal torment for ever and ever...John 3;16 affirms what Jesus said in Matt 25:46....The Greek word for punishment is ''Torment''....

(ἀπόλλυμι)1 to destroy. 1a to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin. 1b render useless. 1c to kill. 1d to declare that one must be put to death. 1e to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
Strong,The exhaustive concordance of the Bible

(ἀπόλλυμι)“to perish.†The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of wellbeing. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4, 6, etc.; the lost son, 15:24; of the perishing of food, John 6:27; of gold, 1 Pet. 1:7. So of persons, Matt. 2:13, “destroyâ€Â; 8:25, “perishâ€Â; 22:7; 27:20; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matt. 10:28; Luke 13:3, 5; John 3:16
Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words

Jesus then spends the rest of the time preaching and teaching Nicodemus the salvation story...Nicodemus came to believe in Jesus....

My dictionary says: to die, especially in a violent or untimely manner, to expire, to pass away.
There is no eternal life, a hellish existence in the flames, and, on the other hand, eternal life in heavenly bliss. Jesus contrasts the two. Those who believe in him are given the gift of eternal life and immortality when He comes again, those who don’t believe in him will perish, they will not receive eternal life or immortality.

I have provided you with the context and the definition of parish....As for the rest of this statement, all I can ask is...What bible are you reading that says what you said....

Those who experience condemnation will be thrown in the lake of fire which devours them. The lake of fire is called the second death.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:15 All whose names were not found written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Yes, They were thrown in and will burn forever and ever...A flame that will never go out and souls that will be in torment.....

Then I must conclude what Jesus said and meant in Matthew 25:46 that the eternal punishment spoken of here is: that the results of the punishment is eternal, those who experience it will not be able to come back from it, they will be eternally dead, devoured by the flames.

Again Jesus contrasts eternal life with perishing.

Ok...
Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κόλασις) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything less that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''

Jn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

You can’t have both the wicked and the righteous having eternal life or immortality, because that is not what Jesus meant. The righteous are always promised eternal life and immortality, but the wicked will perish in the lake of fire. They are opposites. The opposite to life is death. We believers are promised eternal life, the opposite to eternal life is eternal death.

God bless
gazzamor

Interesting that you would put words in Jesus mouth....

There is an old saying...''God says what he means and he means what he says''....

‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you id not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.â€Â


Well, its time for some :

 

[stranger]

Hi guibox,

As I believe in the resurrection of the just and unjust - the words: 'the disembodied soul' are not part of my argument.


I understand being thrown into the lake of fire as an eternal judgement by fire in the age to come.

You wrote: There was no 'judgement by fire on this earth' and 'judgment by eternal fire in the afterlife'. If you want to take all these references of 'judgment by fire' to strictly refer to this life and the body then you must conclude that all God's enemies have and will be destroyed by fire on this earth.

I conclude that God has a number of ways of revealing His judgments: flood, war, famine, as well as 'fire'. Fire is one of them but it is especially reserved in the final judgment.

There has been a localised judgment by fire on this earth of which the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is a recently discussed example. If you intend a world wide judgement by fire, as you probably do, then yes that has not occurred.

You wrote: You are trying to make this be 'physical' simply because it doesn't fit into the non-biblical concept of an immortal soul that can be punished for eternity.

No, I don't think in terms like that, and there is no hint of that in my responses.

 

[stranger]

As the OP is a survey, and as I have a policy of not doing surveys except for the Government sanctioned Census - I will exit this tread.

Thankyou all for the lively debate.

 

[guibox]

I posted a comment here about Luther and Tyndale and either it got lost in cyber space (which I'm not sure how as I saw it here when I posted it) or it was removed. I do not know why it was removed, and if it was, I was not given any reason why. However, I redid it even though I had to start from scratch again. I changed a few things just in case something in here broke the forum rules.

I will give the benefit of the doubt that there was some mistake in it being 'lost'.

Here it is again.
____________________________

It is unfortunate that some, in their debunking of conditional immortality and denial of the inherent immortality of the soul claim that this is some ‘false doctrine’ created by ‘cults’.

We actually see that it goes back millennia and has been believed by church fathers and Reformers throughout church history.

This philosophy of the universal immortality of the human soul was a cardinal teaching of the ancient Greeks and strongly influenced early Christian thought on the nature of the human soul. Although early Christians rejected the belief that the soul was of divine essence or deity, most eventually compromised with Greek philosophy by accepting the idea that all humans have a soul that is immortal. The very early Christian Fathers, however, such as Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Shepherd of Hermas, Polycarp (a pupil of the Apostle John), Justin Martyr, Tatian and Irenaeus held to the belief that only those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will eventually inherit immortality and eternal life.
- http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5862/hell2.html

Look at what Martin Luther wrote in his 95 Theses

However, I permit the Pope to establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithfulâ€â€such are: That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals

The Lutheran scholar Dr. T. A. Kantonen in his book The Christian Hope, 1594, p. 37), says this:

"'The immediate cause of Luther's stand on the sleep of the soul was the issue of purgatory, with its postulate of the conscious torment of anguished souls. While Luther is not always consistent, the predominant note running all through his writings is that souls sleep in peace, without consciousness or pain. The Christian dead are not aware of anythingâ€â€see not, feel not, understand not, and are not conscious of passing events. Luther held and periodically stated that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness and unawareness of the condition of death or the passage of time Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep

Luther himself says:

''We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, "Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment, and be with him forever.' "

What about William Tyndale? Another great reformer? He was an avid supporter of conditional immortality. Look at his comments.

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?â€â€William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.

The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.â€â€lbid., p. 180

.
And in this comment towards Thomas More who challenged Tyndale on this doctrine.

Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection)

The Anabaptists also preached this.

I went on the internet and put in 'Conditional immortality' int eh search engine. I was amazed on how many from many faiths belief this to be true. Those in support of it were much more than those opposed. Only two of them that I found could be classified by some as 'cultic'. The rest were mainstread evangelical.

I hope that those who are making these claims that this is some sort of new or cultic false doctrine will take into account that this belief has been prominent throughout church history and is becoming more and more accepted by many scholars and people from all walks of Christian faith.

 

[Solo]

I posted a comment here about Luther and Tyndale and either it got lost in cyber space (which I'm not sure how as I saw it here when I posted it) or it was removed. I do not know why it was removed, and if it was, I was not given any reason why. However, I redid it even though I had to start from scratch again. I changed a few things just in case something in here broke the forum rules.

I will give the benefit of the doubt that there was some mistake in it being 'lost'.

Here it is again.
____________________________

It is unfortunate that some, in their debunking of conditional immortality and denial of the inherent immortality of the soul claim that this is some ‘false doctrine’ created by ‘cults’.

We actually see that it goes back millennia and has been believed by church fathers and Reformers throughout church history.


The Anabaptists also preached this.

I went on the internet and put in 'Conditional immortality' int eh search engine. I was amazed on how many from many faiths belief this to be true. Those in support of it were much more than those opposed. Only two of them that I found could be classified by some as 'cultic'. The rest were mainstread evangelical.

I hope that those who are making these claims that this is some sort of new or cultic false doctrine will take into account that this belief has been prominent throughout church history and is becoming more and more accepted by many scholars and people from all walks of Christian faith.

For the truth concerning life after death and the false teaching of soul-sleep taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists, to name a couple of cultic organizations outside of mainstream Christianity, go to the article at:

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct15.htm

and

http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd22.htm

 

[guibox]

The above posting merely proves my point.

It is easier to sidestep the issue and post a link instead of addressing the arguments of two great Christian Reformers.

 

[Solo]

As much as guibox refuses to accept Scripture, the two links supplied in previous post show Scripture references proving Soul-Sleep as a false teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, and other antichristian organizations.

Here is a great article entitled, "Dr. Jacob Prasch's Soul Sleep Heresy Exposed!":

http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/ ... +Sleep.htm

Definitely worth the read!!!


PS. guibox, you told another lie. You said in your PM to me that you would no longer respond to any of my posts!!!!

 

[Drew]

In verse 5 ''Jesus'' tells Nicodemus ''unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.''....Clearly Jesus is speaking of the spiritual realm here...Or do you believe we will march into heaven with our physical bodies??...

I do not believe that we will enter heaven in these physical bodies, but 1 Cor 15 shows that we will indeed have bodies in heaven - we will not be disembodied "spirits" or "souls". Heaven will be a distinctly physical place.

 

[guibox]

Solo, I will break my vow seeing as you are misconstruing the facts (and BTW, you'll notice that I didn't address you specifically in my response).

I have shown, from the sources own words Solo, that 'soul sleep' is not a 'JW or SDA heresy' it was believed by the Reformers.

If you can't accept that but choose to continue to spread untruths when the truth is right there in black and white, I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously.

Okay. No more. I feel like Michael Corleone in Godfather III "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"