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Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

daninthelionsden said:
Why did Thomas drop to his knees and say "My Lord AND my GOD"?
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You mean why was it written that way in the NT? Because that is what he stated. But if Lord means the exact same thing as God why then did He have to state both Lord and God?

There is a distinction being made by Paul between Lord and God that is not captured by orthodox trinity statements.
Paul=>"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live"
 
I am not sure why on the questions of baptism in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus does indeed baptize by the Holy Spirit. But people were baptized in water by the apostles.

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied

Whoever believes and calls on the Lord shall be saved. Such a statement assumes a sincere faith in Jesus. As in one who loves the Lord. Two asked something of the Lord when He was on the cross yet only one received a very positive reply. "Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. That man wasn't baptized but the one who has life in Himself and authority to forgive sin forgave that mans debt. (sins)

The women at the well: Jesus knew her sin but didn't mock her in the least. Indeed He offered her living water. Why? because Jesus came to save. That is why the Father sent Him. (Love)

Randy
 
Randy said:
You mean why was it written that way in the NT? Because that is what he stated. But if Lord means the exact same thing as God why then did He have to state both Lord and God?

There is a distinction being made by Paul between Lord and God that is not captured by orthodox trinity statements.
Paul=>"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live"
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You do not believe Jesus was the Father?
 
Randy said:
You mean why was it written that way in the NT? Because that is what he stated. But if Lord means the exact same thing as God why then did He have to state both Lord and God?

There is a distinction being made by Paul between Lord and God that is not captured by orthodox trinity statements.
Paul=>"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live"
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Why did the guards collapse when Jesus said "I AM"?
Why throughout the bible when angels would appear and people tried to worship them the angels forbade them from doing so...but when people worshipped Jesus He did not forbid them? Like all unorthodox Christian cults you just can't stand Christ being in His rightful place.
 
Randy said:
There was no NT or doctrine of the trinity in the beginning. Were people saved? Did they call on the Lord? Weren't they baptized in Jesus's name? We follow Jesus and He uses truth. I don't deny God the Father or Jesus our Lord. Rather I speak of their relationship. Jesus has always been the Son and the Father has always been His God. Nothing has changed. Jesus has been given the authority to have life in Himself and to give life. He stated so and stated the one who gave Him authority to judge.

Those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. No one goes to the Son unless the Father enables them. The Holy Spirit bears witness. He speaks what He hears from the mind of the Spirit. Nothing has changed.

Baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and I add for this discussion note the word "Son"

Randy
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hello Randy, dirtfarmer here

Who is speaking in John16;15 and referencing the Father? Who is " he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you?
Explain John 1:1-3.
Explain Colossians 1:16
 
wondering said:
The trinity is a Roman Catholic concept?
You mean Protestants don't believe that God Father, God Jesus and God the Holy Spirit are one God??
Are they 3 Gods??
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Hi Wondering, The word "Trinity" is not a Roman Concept, but a Roman word to title the doctrine of The father, Son, and Holy Ghost. There are two reasons for Biblical Doctrines: To teach and explain a Scriptural occurrence beforehand; and then to confirm the change and condition of what occurs in a born again believer. (1 Cor. 1:6-9) as a guarantee (Eph. 1:13-15); The power of God in us (John 1:12-13); His Deity (John 1:1-5); The new man (1 Cor. 5:16-18). All of these and more are Doctrines of the Bible to the novice. But to the born again believer, they are a confirmation to the change in our life by rebirth of the new man in Christ. The Father gave us a new man in the likeness of Christ with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ). The Scriptures make it clear to the born again believer that there are three entities: The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, But one God (1 John 5:6-8) each has it's own will, but it is always the will of God in all three (all agree). Just as the Real body of Christ is many members but yet, one body (1 Cor. Chapter 12) (John 14:17; 15:26) (John chapters 14,15, and 16) Please study them,

The use of the word "TRINITY" is from the early ROMAN Catholic fathers; Ignatius of Antioch; Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch and Tertullian to name a few. The important thing is not to debate about the word or doctrine, but what has changed in your life that confirms the regeneration of your heart, mind and soul, You see, we are a trinity also or three in one body. (Matt. 22:37)

In Christ
Doug.
 
Mustard Socks said:
You do not believe Jesus was the Father?
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No - I believe Jesus is Gods firstborn. Hence Jesus has always been the Son and the Father has always been His God.
The Son that was, His Spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father.

How then can the Son be called God and/or all that the Father is?
Paul=>The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The creation was made through Him. All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him.

Is Jesus an angel then?
No
Hebrews=>"About the Son" takes pain to state the name Jesus inherited is above the angels of God.

Jesus is the "one and only" at the Fathers side.

Randy
 
Randy said:
No - I believe Jesus is Gods firstborn. Hence Jesus has always been the Son and the Father has always been His God.
The Son that was, His Spirit, was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father.

How then can the Son be called God and/or all that the Father is?
Paul=>The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. The creation was made through Him. All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him.

Is Jesus an angel then?
No
Hebrews=>"About the Son" takes pain to state the name Jesus inherited is above the angels of God.

Jesus is the "one and only" at the Fathers side.

Randy
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You renounce Jesus' own statements that He is the Father?
 
Mustard Socks said:
I think just the passages concerning the great commission should say enough.
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hello Mustard Socks, dirtfarmer here

Matthew 28:19 was given to the 11 disciples of verse 16, not to the Church. They were sent to the nations, not individuals.
Luke 24:47 " And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. The Church is to preach belief in the sacrifice of Christ has paid our sin debt.
Romans 11:11 " I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." The mission of the Church is to make the Jews jealous.
 
civilwarbuff said:
They are not one and the same......the same essence yes but not the same person.
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So you renounce Jesus own statements that he and the father are one. That when the apostles had seen Jesus they were looking at God.
That's unfortunate. I would suggest bible study so as to realize where your misunderstandings are misapplied in your arguments here.
 
Mustard Socks said:
So you renounce Jesus own statements that he and the father are one. That when the apostles had seen Jesus they were looking at God.
That's unfortunate. I would suggest bible study so as to realize where your misunderstandings are misapplied in your arguments here.
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You misunderstand, They are One but they are not the same....Jesus is not the Father who is not the HS who is not Jesus but all 3 are God.
 
chessman said:
Jesus never said that He is the Father. What Scripture leads you to that conclusion?
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The scriptures that carry Jesus statements that He and the Father are one. And that when the disciples saw Jesus they saw the Father.

civilwarbuff said:
You misunderstand, They are One but they are not the same....Jesus is not the Father who is not the HS who is not Jesus but all 3 are God.
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I would submit that I do not misunderstand .

In Deuteronomy were learned our God is one. Monotheism. One God.
When God is primal origin, first cause, source of all things, then there is no thing that is not God. Or born of God becasue it is that Holy Spirit that is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end.

Jesus was born of man. Vaginal human birth. His source to occupy that flesh in the world of the dead was his Father in Heaven. The seed that begat the son of Life. In his image and likeness.
When Jesus was reborn of water at John's hands in the Jordan, Jesus' Father imbued Jesus with His Holy Spirit. Demonstrating the message Jesus spoke of death, rebirth, and new life. With the slate wiped clean of sins Father shall never re-call against us.

Jesus is not exclusive of His Father. He Is innately His Father. Just as Jesus stated so that we may understand and as are recalled in His word. The Word gave His word.
We live for that. We live with that truth inside us. How is it we rewrite that Word when it doesn't say what we can bear to live with?

I don't speak for what Jesus meant to imply. I read what Jesus taught me with his own lips, recalled by faithful servants unto that as I am now. Our people, Christians , have been butchered for believing in The Word that gave His word.
When Jesus tells me that He and His Father are One I believe. There is no argument in The Word. Just in the people that believe what they read.

This is relationship. How's the word feel? Innate? As if it has always strummed in your heart and rings when the teachings all come together as a picture in your personal life? That advice for how to navigate in today's age?
That's The Word writing His Holy Spirit onto our be-ing in him right now as one of his saints.

How we see it is how we believe it and how we believe we see is how we live our own testimony of what we've learned.

Believe Jesus was not Father.

That's not what Jesus said. How can I a mere mortal argue in hopes of changing that perspective? When God's Word is obscured? And would seemingly invite opportunity to debate. That's silly. I'm going to talk you out of how you see what you stake your soul's eternity on?

That's pride.
And pride is a sin.

I'm preaching there. Blech!So not qualified for that. Not intended to wall0text. That's just how I feel at this point. It is very likely a debate that circles in every Christian forum on the net sooner or later. What's our point?
Really?

I'm going to change your mind about where your soul goes for eternity by arguing you into my view of where my own is going.

:lol I'd be so full of myself I'd look like a walking Twinkee.
I'm going to depart this debate. It's been fun.

*added the missing r in, where your soul goes.
 
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Mustard Socks said:
The scriptures that carry Jesus statements that He and the Father are one. And that when the disciples saw Jesus they saw the Father.
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That as the Father is God so Jesus is God not that Jesus and the Father are the same person. Seeing Jesus, who is God, is seeing the Father who is also God; in other words the disciples were looking upon God.
 
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