Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[ezra]

Mike,

You say,


Being a member of the body of Christ does not make me part of the bodily Godhead. I find that to be illogical.

Again, you state,


Sarcasm doesn't work with me. The Trinity does NOT teach 1+1+1=1.
This is what the Trinity teaches:

The persons and deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit


The “Shield of the Trinity” or Scutum Fidei diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism (courtesy Wikipedia)

For some more details, see my article, 'Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?'

Oz

amen

 

[Butch5]

Is the NETS the same as NET? Just asking cuz the Isa 9:6 you quoted from NETS was different from my NET......which is what triggered this whole ?'s of mine......

It's from the same people. The "S" stands for Septuagint. It is the NET translation of the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint.

 

[civilwarbuff]

This is my NET version from e-sword:
Isa 9:6
6 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
You can see it is different from your version. You changed the credit to LXA; is that the correct credit?....which would explain the difference.
And I am not familiar with LXA....any link to it?

 

[Butch5]

This is my NET version from e-sword:
Isa 9:6
6 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
You can see it is different from your version. You changed the credit to LXA; is that the correct credit?....which would explain the difference.
And I am not familiar with LXA....any link to it?

It's Brenton's translation of the LXX. Everlasting Father isn't in the Greek text.

 

[Brother Mike]

do what ?????? you don't believe in the trinity father son holy Ghost who is the us in let US make man in our image GEN 1:26 or Isiah 6 who will go for US
isaiah 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" just want make sure i understand befor commenting

I believe in the Father, Son and the Spirit of God. We are created in the Father and Son's image. We are made like them. We are in the "god" class so to speak. I believe that. However, I don't make Jesus a 2nd person of anything and I don't lump them into a god machine or remove God's family from the body of Christ or the godhead bodily. It's the part they suddenly and magically become just 1 God. The Father and Son both have a throne, mentioned together in 52 different verses and Jesus was never confused who His Father was which He said my Father in Heaven.

The 325ad Nicene Creed is "OK" because it said Jesus is God of God of the same substance as the FAther, not lumping them into a god goo and removing the son. The Creed did say you have to be Roman Catholic, but oh well.

So I agree with you, but not the part where suddenly the Head of the Church who makes intercession for us before His Father vanishes into a god system.

Be blessed.

 

[ezra]

I believe in the Father, Son and the Spirit of God. We are created in the Father and Son's image. We are made like them. We are in the "god" class so to speak. I believe that. However, I don't make Jesus a 2nd person of anything and I don't lump them into a god machine or remove God's family from the body of Christ or the godhead bodily. It's the part they suddenly and magically become just 1 God. The Father and Son both have a throne, mentioned together in 52 different verses and Jesus was never confused who His Father was which He said my Father in Heaven.

The 325ad Nicene Creed is "OK" because it said Jesus is God of God of the same substance as the FAther, not lumping them into a god goo and removing the son. The Creed did say you have to be Roman Catholic, but oh well.

So I agree with you, but not the part where suddenly the Head of the Church who makes intercession for us before His Father vanishes into a god system.

Be blessed.

we have God 1st person john 3:16 for God so loved the world he gave his only Son. then ata Christ baptism this is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased. then in john 16 jesus said when he went to be with the father he would send the comforter --holy spirit the 3 have separate roles. but all 3 work together they are not 3 separate Gods the Holy spirit intercepts our prayers Jesus is our advocate God is the creator

 

[reba]

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[daninthelionsden]

I remember I liked to use the simple H2O analogy where the Trinity was likened to water, ice and steam being separate manifestations like the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same God. That is, until a Oneness fellow I knew said he liked that same analogy. I knew then that analogy is just too simplistic as my Lord is more than just a manifestation of the Father. The Son is always subordinate to the Father unlike water is to ice. Just a good analogy on the very surface. I agree with the Jews in that God is much greater than humans can fathom and certainly greater than human words can describe. But, as a Christian, I still have to say that the Trinity best describes with meager human words what God's nature most closely resembles.

 

[Free]

I remember I liked to use the simple H2O analogy where the Trinity was likened to water, ice and steam being separate manifestations like the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same God. That is, until a Oneness fellow I knew said he liked that same analogy. I knew then that analogy is just too simplistic as my Lord is more than just a manifestation of the Father.

I use the Triple Point of water as an analogy but only insofar as to point out that if water can exist simultaneously as a solid, liquid, and gas under the right conditions, then it is also possible for God. But, yes, as with all analogies, it falls short and too can be used by modalists.

The Son is always subordinate to the Father unlike water is to ice. Just a good analogy on the very surface. I agree with the Jews in that God is much greater than humans can fathom and certainly greater than human words can describe. But, as a Christian, I still have to say that the Trinity best describes with meager human words what God's nature most closely resembles.

You are not the first to bring up the subordination of the Son to the Father. This is something you want to be very careful with. There is something theologians call the ontological Trinity--how the Trinity has always existed in and of itself--and something they call the economical Trinity--how the Trinity works within creation and salvation; what we observe.

Difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature. (The Forgotten Trinity, James R. White, p. 66)

See also: http://www.theopedia.com/subordinationism

 

[daninthelionsden]

I use the Triple Point of water as an analogy but only insofar as to point out that if water can exist simultaneously as a solid, liquid, and gas under the right conditions, then it is also possible for God. But, yes, as with all analogies, it falls short and too can be used by modalists.


You are not the first to bring up the subordination of the Son to the Father. This is something you want to be very careful with. There is something theologians call the ontological Trinity--how the Trinity has always existed in and of itself--and something they call the economical Trinity--how the Trinity works within creation and salvation; what we observe.

Difference in function does not indicate inferiority of nature. (The Forgotten Trinity, James R. White, p. 66)

See also: http://www.theopedia.com/subordinationism

I believe Christ chooses to lead us by example and His subordination is His example.

 

[Free]

I believe Christ chooses to lead us by example and His subordination is His example.

Sure, Jesus's humility is an example of how we are to live. That is the context of Phil 2:5-8. As long as we don't confuse that with how the Trinity exists in and of itself.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It's Brenton's translation of the LXX. Everlasting Father isn't in the Greek text.

Thanks, appreciate the info.......

 

[Randy]

The concept of trinity promotes a response much like your own. "It's a core Christianity Concept" It's not, and in fact not even in scripture but some very suspect scriptures like 1John 5:7.

CFnet:
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One God that manifest himself as 3 or some other is Apostolic Oneness 1914.

Trinity the Modern Athanasius Creed says there are 3 who are equally God that are 1. 1 John 5:7 even says 3 are 1.

Church of God (Which I decided by direction to go and visit at least for now)

• In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

One That exist in 3 persons, or 1 that is 3 is modalist or slanted oneness again.

As I said, I don't really care what someone believes. It's a none issue for me. Jesus was with God the Father before the World was even made, has always been the Son of God, and is not His Father. I have lots of scriptures to back that and not interested in the many different versions of the trinity doctrine.

Be blessed.

You are very close in your understanding of the relationship between Father and Son. Which doesn't speak against their existence nor deny them.
I think you will find in scripture:
Jesus=>Is the firstborn of all creation. (Paul)
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. (Hebrews)
..the assembly of the firstborn. (Hebrews)

Jesus has always been Gods Son. Gods firstborn. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. (given) All the fullness of God. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The creation was made through Him (genesis) and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Jesus=>Father into your hands I commit my spirit.
The Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father. It was the Father in Him doing His work. The Father in Him and Jesus in the Father. In that manner they are one.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Great post, Free.

Can you quote the "Fathers" promise? Who spirit is being poured out? When you read Acts 2 who did Jesus receive the Spirit from that was sent into the world?

Jesus is the word. Yes. But whose words did He speak. Use Jesus as your source with the greatest weight.

Hebrews
As I read God spoke to us through His Son. Those words (as Jesus taught) belonged to the Father. So then the one who believes in those words believes in the one who sent Him. Jesus spoke all that the Father commanded His to state and Jesus knew the Fathers command leads to eternal life.

About the "Son"

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

This has not changed. Note the word "Son"
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

One God the Father (by whom all things exist) and One Lord Jesus Christ (through whom all things exist)

Jesus=>The Spirit of the "Sovereign Lord" is upon me....

 

[Brother Mike]

You are very close in your understanding of the relationship between Father and Son. Which doesn't speak against their existence nor deny them.
I think you will find in scripture:
Jesus=>Is the firstborn of all creation. (Paul)
When God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him. (Hebrews)
..the assembly of the firstborn. (Hebrews)

Jesus has always been Gods Son. Gods firstborn. The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. (given) All the fullness of God. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The creation was made through Him (genesis) and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Jesus=>Father into your hands I commit my spirit.
The Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father. It was the Father in Him doing His work. The Father in Him and Jesus in the Father. In that manner they are one.

Randy

Thank you for that insight Randy. I am the best the Lord will give me grace a Scripture only person. I can't have one contradictory scripture, not even one. I believe the Word of God is perfect, and even where those few place that may have been worded to fit a man's doctrine, I fully believe they can be cleared up by the Great Teacher the Holy Spirit.

If there is only One god like the Muslims believe, then we have no advocate with the Father. This is just one of many issues I have with the one god theory. I will never take mans garbage over scripture, and most definitely find suspect any Roman Catholic Doctrine which is where the whole trinity concept came into being.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for that insight Randy. I am the best the Lord will give me grace a Scripture only person. I can't have one contradictory scripture, not even one. I believe the Word of God is perfect, and even where those few place that may have been worded to fit a man's doctrine, I fully believe they can be cleared up by the Great Teacher the Holy Spirit.

If there is only One god like the Muslims believe, then we have no advocate with the Father. This is just one of many issues I have with the one god theory. I will never take mans garbage over scripture, and most definitely find suspect any Roman Catholic Doctrine which is where the whole trinity concept came into being.

Hi Brother Mike
You keep bringing up the RCC.
You must be aware of the historical fact that the RCC did not always exist.
There was only one church after Christ ascended, the catholic church.
After Christianity was separated from Judaism, it came to be known as the catholic, or universal church.
It was not the RCC as it's known today.

As I've already posted, the Trinity was already being explained in the 100's. There was no RCC in the 100's.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you quote the "Fathers" promise? Who spirit is being poured out? When you read Acts 2 who did Jesus receive the Spirit from that was sent into the world?

Jesus is the word. Yes. But whose words did He speak. Use Jesus as your source with the greatest weight.

Hebrews
As I read God spoke to us through His Son. Those words (as Jesus taught) belonged to the Father. So then the one who believes in those words believes in the one who sent Him. Jesus spoke all that the Father commanded His to state and Jesus knew the Fathers command leads to eternal life.

About the "Son"

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

This has not changed. Note the word "Son"
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

One God the Father (by whom all things exist) and One Lord Jesus Christ (through whom all things exist)

Jesus=>The Spirit of the "Sovereign Lord" is upon me....

Hi Randy,
You list yourself as a Christian, but what you post reminds me of the Ba'hai faith.
Do you believe Jesus is God, or do you believe He is a " light" ?

 

[Free]

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

You have violated the law of non-contradiction. Either Jesus is God or he is not God. He cannot be both God and not God; that is nonsense.

 

[Free]

I can't have one contradictory scripture, not even one.

But you have a significant contradiction, which I have pointed out and you have so far avoided answering.

If there is only One god like the Muslims believe, then we have no advocate with the Father. This is just one of many issues I have with the one god theory. I will never take mans garbage over scripture, and most definitely find suspect any Roman Catholic Doctrine which is where the whole trinity concept came into being.

"If there is only one God"? Here is the contradiction. You state that you "can't have one contradictory scripture, not even one," yet you clearly believe Scripture shows there is more than one God. Scripture is exceedingly clear that there was, is, and ever will be only one God. Why is it that you do not want to address the Scriptures I previously gave which show this to be the case?

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-and-does-it-matter.67346/page-2#post-1265052

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,
You list yourself as a Christian, but what you post reminds me of the Ba'hai faith.
Do you believe Jesus is God, or do you believe He is a " light" ?

To those who have been called by God, as no one goes to the Son unless enable by the Fathers Holy Spirit, Jesus is the wisdom and power of God.

I believe ALL that is written of Jesus and since I have the Spirit of Christ in me (for the Spirit was sent in His name) then I belong to Him and live by Him. (Jesus) Just as Jesus lives by the living Father. The first gentile believers starting calling themselves Christians (those that followed the way) because Jesus is called Christ. (In the beginning)

I believe Jesus to be the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. The how that is so is where we differ. I don't believe Jesus always was I believe He is Gods firstborn and God (the one Jesus calls His God) was pleased to have His fullness dwell in His firstborn. In that context Jesus is mighty God, prince of peace, everlasting Father. And one with the Father. Paul="the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him". Jesus is not that fullness. The fullness was given and that fullness of God is the Father.

Jesus calls the Father the One true God. If Jesus always was and always was God then how do you believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit the Father calls "My Spirit" I assure you Jesus of Nazareth was not baptized with His own Spirit. Heaven was opened and the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord came down and remained on Him as John the baptist testified to.
John =>"I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him."
Jesus read from the scroll in the synagogue (He understood the Hebrew language as a 1st century Jew) =>Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

The testimony of the Father (God) about Jesus=>This is MY SON whom I love.....

The Father about Jesus=>
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
(with light comes accountability)

Jesus=>.....
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

The Spirit Jesus sent He received form the Father (Acts 2)
Peter addresses the crowd of Israelites
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]


Jesus is the word of the Father.
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus=>“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.49For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Jesus=>
Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son that was (his spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. The Father was in Him.

Randy