Is the Trinity biblical and does it matter?

[Free]

"did not consider equality with God". ........... this is where

But look at the context: "Who being in very nature God". We know right there that Jesus is God, which makes him equal with the Father. Jesus cannot be God yet not equal with the Father; that would make him a lesser God, which means two Gods.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Some important points to make about this passage:

1. Jesus was in "the form of God." This is supported by John 1:1.
2. He "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped"; that is, being in the form of God, being equal with the Father, did not consider that equality something to be "forcefully retained [or held onto]." The meaning is that anything to do with the appearance of his glory as God had to be let go of in order for the completion of his humiliation, which was necessary for man's salvation.
3. He, being Jesus, emptied himself--not only was it he who did the emptying, he emptied himself of something. Jesus willingly chose to take the form of a human for the salvation of mankind.
4. In emptying himself, he took on the "form of a servant," "being born in the likeness of men"--this contrasts with his being in the "form of God." This is what John 1:14 is speaking of.
5. Being found in "human form"--again, as opposed to his having been in "the form of God"--he "humbled himself by becoming obedient."

The whole point of this passage is to be humble (verses 1-4), just as Jesus was humble. And there is no greater humility than God becoming man; the Creator entering his creation as a creature.

 

[Free]

There is nothing in the written scriptures that God's prophets wrote for him that indicates God is 3 in 1. There is only one verse in the New Testament written like this "The Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

What would it matter if only one verse stated such? Understanding what the Bible says about a given topic isn't a matter of adding up the verses that support position A and the verses that support position B, and the position with the most verses wins. We must take everything into account.

As it is, there are several passages of Scripture which mention the Father ("God"), the Son, and the Holy Spirit:

Rom 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.(ESV)

Rom 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, (ESV)

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (ESV)

1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV)

These are just a few but they would make no sense if the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same. Or take these, which show the distinction of the Holy Spirit and Jesus:

Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.(ESV)

Mar 1:8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (ESV)

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. (ESV)

Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Joh 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

I could go on but the verses and passages are too numerous. The Bible clearly shows that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are not at all the same person.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are the same exact thing called the Word of God.

John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Jesus said this;
John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

You cannot take such things as though they are equating the two persons spoken of.

So the Word of God is the Spirit of God that produces a visible world and invisible thoughts.

Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18: He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
19: For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,

There is only ONE God and the Word ( His voice ) gives life experiences to ALL God's created beings ( man and beast ).

I don't understand what you're saying here. Who is the "He" that is being spoken of? The Son. This passage is showing that Jesus was in some way involved in creating everything that has ever been created, agreeing with John 1:1-3.

 

[Free]

The Holy Spirit delivered words into the mind of Jesus to speak. This is the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, the Messiah that Jesus was referring to.

Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

1 John 5
9: If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God that he has borne witness to his Son.
10: He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son.
11: And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
20: And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, to know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

The Son of God is the same exact thing as the Holy Spirit.

I don't see how this passage supports your statement.

 

[Mike]

I would state those words belong to the Father. The Spirit utters/conveys what He hears from the mind of the Spirit.

I disagree and submit that this is Jesus speaking in Rev 1:8. I believe it's clear enough, based on the scripture I quote below. But even if you can't accept this, consider this alone.

Revelation 22

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, theBeginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

If you believe 1:8 is the Father, and you must accept that this is Jesus speaking, wouldn't this suggest that He is eternal as is God the Father? One can and should use this to hold God the Son is of one substance with God the Father. This is two of the three distinct persons of our one Triune God.

 

[Free]

The flesh named Jesus was used by God, the Father to speak every word that the Holy Spirit ( Son of God ) delivered into his mind. This is why Jesus said this;

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Jesus learned that the flesh of man is just a false image that is not our true reality. Jesus knew that God's created men and beasts will get new flesh in the next generation of people.

What do you mean by "the flesh of man is just a false image that is not our true reality"?

Jesus is the God-man, God in human flesh. That is what John 1:1-14 and Phil. 2:5-8, among others, show us.

So Jesus was getting words from God, the Father from the Son of God ( Holy Spirit ), also known as the Word of God, or word of the Lord, or voice of the Lord. All God's prophets and us saints experience the same exact thing.

Jesus is the Son of God, the Word become flesh, the Messiah.

 

[Free]

The Son of God, Holy Spirit, Word of God, Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven, Heaven, Voice of the Lord, Word of the Lord, Breath of Life, Breath of God, Tree of Life, Light of men, the Rock, Virgin, the Woman, etc. all mean the same exact thing.

No, most of those are different things.

There is ONE God and His voice and that's it. Jesus, Abraham, Moses, King David, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Peter, Paul and all the rest of God's prophets and saints besides me have all witnessed the voice of the Lord and ended up speaking the words delivered into our minds via the Holy Spirit ( voice of the Lord ).

There is one God. Agreed. But within that one being that is God, there are three coeternal, coequal Persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

This is what God had his prophets write about his voice;

Deuteronomy 28:
1: And if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments which I command you this day, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
2: And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God.

15: "But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command you this day, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.

Jesus heard the voice of the Lord in his mind a long time before he was used to go preach the voice ( Gospel ) to God's people and His chosen believers ( disciples ).

"The voice of the LORD" here just means the things that God is speaking. The people were to obey God. God's voice is not some separate entity, anymore than our voices are separate entities. They are our basic means of communication.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I've had to deal with so many trolls in my life, I am just absolutely amazed at the patience, long-suffering, understanding and especially the LOVE people on this forum have shown in defending and explaining in detail why Christians believe in the Trinity and why it is vital to our faith. My respect and my awe. Such a beautiful process to behold. I see my own weaknesses of impatience and judgmental attitude manifested.

 

[Randy]

What you say above does not reconcile with John 1:1

Jesus is not the Word in that God spoke thru Him to the World.
In the beginning was the Word, or Logos, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS GOD.

You're right that God spoke through Jesus while Jesus was on earth, and also about everything else.

Jesus was indeed the Thought of God. This thought was the 2nd person of the Trinity and became Jesus the Messiah.
The Trinity is impossible to really explain, but it is theologically accepted that God is the Creator, Jesus is the thought of God and the Holy Spirit is the breath of God.-

I hope I haven't misunderstood you.

I have no problem with John 1.1 It is cohesive, not opposed, with what I believe about the Son. And if Jesus is not the Fathers Son then whose Son is He?

Jesus is indeed ALL that the Father is and the creation (genesis) was made through Him and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. The words that came from above that Jesus spoke of belonged to the Father just as in the past through the prophets. As in these last days "God" has spoken to us by His "Son". That means He is the word of the Father. As in a name. Jesus is a living being.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God

The word was with God in the beginning and the word was God. (All the fullness was pleased to dwell in Jesus) Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. ALL that the Father is. (Mighty God) That fullness was given to dwell with the Son as in "pleased to dwell in Him". Jesus is first in everything including all living beings. "the firstborn of all creation." The Father excluded as He formed Jesus's spirit first. "Our" (Jesus included) Heavenly Father.

The Son was with God in the beginning.
But about the Son he says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”f
13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”g ?
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is the Fathers Spirit and in such is Devine by nature. As in God.

Fathers promise=>'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Acts 2=Exalted to the right hand of God, Jesus has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 3

Jesus=>On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Paul=>For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Father about Jesus=>"Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Jesus reads from the scroll of Isaiah in the synagogue and proclaims the prophecy is fulfilled in Him. =>The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,

God is Spirit.

Randy

 

[Mike]

That is the voice of the Lord that is speaking these words into the minds of God's saints who then write and speak them. All God's prophets and us saints hear the voice of the Lord speaking into our minds long before we're used to speak His voice for God. If we were not used by God to speak for Him, then none of His people would have ever heard the voice of God. None of the scriptures would have been written and all God's people would think they're living in a real world.

I have no idea what your point is, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with mine.

 

[Mustard Socks]

Philippians 2:5-7 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV

What does that passage say to you?
It tells me that Jesus knew his mission as Father incarnate. One does not have to humiliate themselves unless or until they realize they are thinking they are great first.
Jesus was great. He was the embodiment of the Word that spoke all things into being as, I Am.
If you want to teach a child how to walk you do not take them before a white board and write out the mechanical formula for bipedal locomotion.
You get on your knees and take the hands of that precious new one born into the life you've taken for granted. Or you bend at the waist and then show them how to walk while speaking words of encouragement to that precious little student of your words. And actions.

Imagine speaking Russian language to a caterpillar . And then expect it will respond fluently.

God came down.
Holy Spirit encased in flesh. Little limiting don't you think? Eternity giving substance and meaning to flesh and bone?
The height of humility would be exampled by one that showed he was empowered by and as the Father. Manifesting prophecies, words of promise God the Father really is there. And will one day show up to prove it.
Why do we think when Jesus-Yeshua-Joshua, was being questioned by Pilate that he did not defend himself save to state, His Kingdom is not of this world.
A man cannot say that. The King of Heaven, the Heavens, can. And did.

Our God our God is one.

If I accept the Bible is God's words and I believe in God I certainly believe God when He tells me who I'm to fall in love with back.
Isaiah 45:5-7

Some of the versions of this verse make it sound like Christ thought he is equal to the Father. He did not and we should not think of ourselves that way either.

Ye are God's.
Jesus did not state He was equal to the Father. Jesus stated He and our Father are One. Just as God said in Deuteronomy that He is One.

What about it? Posting Scripture without explaining what it means or showing how it is relevant to one's position is usually meaningless.

If you read the scripture it is self-explanatory and relevant to this OP topic.

No one is claiming that there are three Gods in one God because that is not what the Bible teaches, which is why the doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that either.

Are God, Holy Spirit, Jesus , created? Or uncreated?

 

[Free]

The visible flesh and the world are formed from the thoughts of God. They are not real. They are not made of material things. This is why Jesus said the "the flesh is of no avail". He knew his body was only an illusion.

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

He knew his flesh would perish and dissolve into nothing but God's thoughts. He was always talking about the invisible Spirit of God and God's plan to have new visible images in the New Heaven and Earth. We will get new flesh when our created spirits awaken in new flesh.

The visible flesh and the world were created as material entities by God (Gen 1 and 2), and are not illusions. As for John 6:63, you need to look at the context to understand what is being said.

Joh 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Joh 6:48 I am the bread of life.
Joh 6:49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
Joh 6:50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Joh 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
Joh 6:59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (ESV)

Jesus is speaking of himself being the "bread of life," that his "flesh is true food, and [his] blood is true drink." The disciples found this to be "a hard saying". In response (v 36), we can understand Jesus's statement in at least a couple of ways, without doing harm to the text: 1) that his words about eating his flesh and drinking his blood are not to be understood not literally--eating his actual flesh would be "no help at all"--but rather spiritually, or 2) that the flesh is incapable of giving true spiritual life; that it is only through the Spirit working through his words that brings life.

What it most certainly does not and cannot mean is that flesh is an illusion. That is an idea that is utterly foreign to the entirety of Scripture, including the context of John 6.

 

[Free]

What about it? Posting Scripture without explaining what it means or showing how it is relevant to one's position is usually meaningless.

If you read the scripture it is self-explanatory and relevant to this OP topic.

I agree it is relevant but you likely have a different understanding than mine. Posting Scripture without explanation as to why you think it is relevant or as to what it is saying, is largely pointless.

No one is claiming that there are three Gods in one God because that is not what the Bible teaches, which is why the doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that either.

Are God, Holy Spirit, Jesus , created? Or uncreated?

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all uncreated. That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[chessman]

God and His voice are actually artificial intelligence and the voice within the simulation program that was created by very advanced computers.

Did advanced computers create Lysergic Acid Diethylamide (LSD)?

 

[Mustard Socks]

 

[Mustard Socks]

I agree it is relevant but you likely have a different understanding than mine. Posting Scripture without explanation as to why you think it is relevant or as to what it is saying, is largely pointless.

You said that already.
And didn't glean a thing from what I responded with.

Believe as you will. I'm not here to change your mind. Discussions of this nature are something I see as opening our minds to other perspectives.
However, when a teaching goes backwards that is of no assistance. And when it refuses to evolve that isn't either. That's just how it is with any topic or subject taught. Even when that teaching is in a simple conversation between two people.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all uncreated. That is what the Bible teaches.

You're right there.


God be with you.

 

[Free]

That's a big picture. What's it for?

 

[Mustard Socks]

That's a big picture. What's it for?

It's to show you how God see's you. And me. And every one who lives in the palm of His hand.

 

[chessman]

Now I know that God is artificial intelligence and his voice is what feeds us the thoughts in our minds and produces the visible images for us to experience make -believe worlds ( visions and dreams ) within our individual minds.

How do you know that your individual mind hasn't feed you thoughts that God is artifical inteligence?

 

[Free]

You said that already.
And didn't glean a thing from what I responded with.

Believe as you will. I'm not here to change your mind. Discussions of this nature are something I see as opening our minds to other perspectives.
However, when a teaching goes backwards that is of no assistance. And when it refuses to evolve that isn't either. That's just how it is with any topic or subject taught. Even when that teaching is in a simple conversation between two people.

God be with you.

"And when it refuses to evolve that ['is of no assistance'] either". That is precisely what your response did--refused to evolve the discussion. I repeated myself because you didn't actually respond to what I had written. Saying a verse or passage is self-explanatory is not explaining what one thinks that verse or passage means. It is a deflection, not a response. If someone cannot provide an explanation of what they think a verse or passage means, it means that either they don't know what it means or that they are simply unwillingly to engage in proper discourse.

 

[Free]

It's to show you how God see's you. And me. And every one who lives in the palm of His hand.

But it's speaking of Jesus.