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Is the Trinity biblical? Is Jesus really God?

Is this article saying the truth about the Trinity?


  • Total voters
    5
Runner , how do you conceive of God being love, that is, as a part of his nature?

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
1Jn 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. (ESV)

And, significantly, within the context of "God is love," we see "that God sent his only Son into the world," as evidence of His love. Besides the clear implication that Jesus existed prior to his physical birth (contrary to JW theology), how do you make sense of this passage?
 
Anybody want to take a shot at answering Jesus' two questions?

Mark 12:34-37Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

34 And Jesus, having looked-at him because he responded thoughtfully, said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God”.

Jesus Asks How The Messiah Can Be The Son of David Since David Calls Him His Lord
And no one was daring to question Him any more. 35 And having responded, Jesus was saying while teaching in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 David himself said by the Holy Spirit [in Ps 110:1], ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Be sitting on My right side until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’. 37 David himself calls Him ‘Lord’. And in what way is He his son?”

Jesus Warns The Crowds To Beware of The Scribes
And the large crowd was listening-to Him with-pleasure.​

1. “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?
2. in what way is He his son?”
 
Anybody want to take a shot at answering Jesus' two questions?

Mark 12:34-37Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

34 And Jesus, having looked-at him because he responded thoughtfully, said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God”.

Jesus Asks How The Messiah Can Be The Son of David Since David Calls Him His Lord
And no one was daring to question Him any more. 35 And having responded, Jesus was saying while teaching in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36 David himself said by the Holy Spirit [in Ps 110:1], ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Be sitting on My right side until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’. 37 David himself calls Him ‘Lord’. And in what way is He his son?”

Jesus Warns The Crowds To Beware of The Scribes
And the large crowd was listening-to Him with-pleasure.​

1. “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David?
2. in what way is He his son?”
Jesus was thought to be the Son Of Joseph a descendant o David
Gods promise to David - God by His own authority appoints His firstborn to the line of David
Psalm 89
“I also shall make him My firstborn, (God appoints His firstborn to Davids line) -Jesus is the most exalted king
The highest of the kings of the earth.

28“My lovingkindness I will keep for him forever,
And My covenant shall be confirmed to him.

29“So I will establish his descendants forever
And his throne as the days of heaven.
 
God by His own authority appoints His firstborn to the line of David
Yet there’s more to the story and a reason the Scribes (supposedly the most knowledge Theologians of Jesus’ day on the Law and Prophets who were Jesus’ enemies and eventually put Him to death by Lawless non-Jewish Roman hands) couldn’t answer Him Scriptrually.

David himself said by the Holy Spirit [in Ps 110:1], ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Besitting on My right side until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’.

The Holy Spirit inspired David to author a Psalm which depicts The Lord (113 [e]
la·ḏō·nî,
לַֽאדֹנִ֗י)
speaking to The Lord ( 3068 [e]
Yah·weh
יְהוָ֨ה ׀

So, we have Yahweh speaking to Adoni and The Holy Spirit inspiring David to record it, right?

All pre-incarnation of Jesus Christ, right?
 
there are 2 words in the Bible with the Name or title Lord
1. LORD - usually or should be all CAPS....is the name of the God of Israel revealed to Moses....YAHWEH
genesis 3:15
this name YAHWEH should have been left in the Bible but was taken out by the Jewish scribes...
during the Babylonian captivity????????
as they felt it was too holy to pronounce...as is the case today.....
they substititued Adonia or the LORD
2. Lord - usually in lower case....title of authority....meaning master...but not supreme God necesarilly!!!!
example:
Sarah called Abraham her lord and master........
1 Peter 3:6
Mark 12:34-37
is basically saying THE LORD(Yahweh) is saying to my Lord(Jesus) sit at my right hand......
Jesus was saying that He is the son of God and greater than the son of David as David called him Lord.....
in other words david is under Jesus is authority......
as Jesus is under God in authority.......

Note : sitting at the right hand shows Jesus is under submission to God the Father(YAHWEH)
and under His authority...not equal to His authority!!!!!!
1 corinthians 15:27-29
again states that Jesus is underneath God in authority....
 
Note : sitting at the right hand shows Jesus is under submission to God the Father(YAHWEH)
and under His authority...not equal to His authority!!!!!!

So then, what does standing at the right hand show?
Acts 7:54-57Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
Stephen Reports Seeing Jesus At The Right Hand of God. The Jews Stone Him To Death

54 And hearing these things, they were infuriated in their hearts, and were grinding their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, having looked-intently into heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right side of God. 56 And he said, “Behold— I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right side of God!” 57 And having cried-out with a loud voice, they held-shut their ears, and rushed against him with-one-accord.
 
Yet there’s more to the story and a reason the Scribes (supposedly the most knowledge Theologians of Jesus’ day on the Law and Prophets who were Jesus’ enemies and eventually put Him to death by Lawless non-Jewish Roman hands) couldn’t answer Him Scriptrually.

David himself said by the Holy Spirit [in Ps 110:1], ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Besitting on My right side until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’.

The Holy Spirit inspired David to author a Psalm which depicts The Lord (113 [e]
la·ḏō·nî,
לַֽאדֹנִ֗י)
speaking to The Lord ( 3068 [e]
Yah·weh
יְהוָ֨ה ׀

So, we have Yahweh speaking to Adoni and The Holy Spirit inspiring David to record it, right?

All pre-incarnation of Jesus Christ, right?
The Holy Spirit speaks what he hears not on His own. So the Father via His spirit spoke through the prophets just like Matt 10:20
Those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. "They shall all be taught by God"
One God, One Lord, One Spirit

What you should see is that Jesus received from the Father, that is the Father has glorified His firstborn like no other being. The Father is God Almighty and has not received from any other living being anything for He is the One and only True God. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit and therefore Devine.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways

Jesus was clear it was the Father in Him doing His work - those words belonged to the Father
but in these last days he (God)has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
 
The Holy Spirit speaks what he hears not on His own. So the Father via His spirit spoke through the prophets just like Matt 10:20
Those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. "They shall all be taught by God"
One God, One Lord, One Spirit

What you should see is that Jesus received from the Father, that is the Father has glorified His firstborn like no other being. The Father is God Almighty and has not received from any other living being anything for He is the One and only True God. The Holy Spirit is His Spirit and therefore Devine.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways

Jesus was clear it was the Father in Him doing His work - those words belonged to the Father
but in these last days he (God)has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Why would you appeal to a portion of a passage and ignore the rest of it?

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Verses 8-9 are taken from Psalms 45:6-7:

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
Psa 45:7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; (ESV)

The writer of Hebrews is clearly saying that the God, the Father, is calling Jesus God.

Verses 10-12 are taken from Psalm 102:25-26:

Psa 102:16 For the LORD builds up Zion; he appears in his glory;
Psa 102:17 he regards the prayer of the destitute and does not despise their prayer.
Psa 102:18 Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD:
Psa 102:19 that he looked down from his holy height; from heaven the LORD looked at the earth,
Psa 102:20 to hear the groans of the prisoners, to set free those who were doomed to die,
Psa 102:21 that they may declare in Zion the name of the LORD, and in Jerusalem his praise,
Psa 102:22 when peoples gather together, and kingdoms, to worship the LORD.
Psa 102:23 He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days— you whose years endure throughout all generations!”
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

Note that the context is clearly speaking of YHWH, the LORD. This OT passage about YHWH is directly applied to Jesus in Heb. 1. The writer of Hebrews says that God, the Father, is calling Jesus, the Son, God and YHWH.

How do these things reconcile that with your statement that "The Father is God Almighty...He is the One and only True God"?
 
Why would you appeal to a portion of a passage and ignore the rest of it?

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (ESV)

Verses 8-9 are taken from Psalms 45:6-7:

Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
Psa 45:7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions; (ESV)

The writer of Hebrews is clearly saying that the God, the Father, is calling Jesus God.

Verses 10-12 are taken from Psalm 102:25-26:

Psa 102:16 For the LORD builds up Zion; he appears in his glory;
Psa 102:17 he regards the prayer of the destitute and does not despise their prayer.
Psa 102:18 Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD:
Psa 102:19 that he looked down from his holy height; from heaven the LORD looked at the earth,
Psa 102:20 to hear the groans of the prisoners, to set free those who were doomed to die,
Psa 102:21 that they may declare in Zion the name of the LORD, and in Jerusalem his praise,
Psa 102:22 when peoples gather together, and kingdoms, to worship the LORD.
Psa 102:23 He has broken my strength in midcourse; he has shortened my days.
Psa 102:24 “O my God,” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days— you whose years endure throughout all generations!”
Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end. (ESV)

Note that the context is clearly speaking of YHWH, the LORD. This OT passage about YHWH is directly applied to Jesus in Heb. 1. The writer of Hebrews says that God, the Father, is calling Jesus, the Son, God and YHWH.

How do these things reconcile that with your statement that "The Father is God Almighty...He is the One and only True God"?
The same way Jesus does as I used His words. He received from the Father. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

In this context Jesus is God - He is all that the Father is.
In this context He is not God- He has always been the Son.

Since Jesus calls the Father the One true God how then do you believe in one God as Jesus stated "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"

Randy
 
For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you.
Matthew 10:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:20&version=DLNT

This would have been a great place for Jesus to have said ‘you are not the ones speaking, but the Father speaking through His Spirit in you’, should that have been what He meant.
Father promise=>In the last days I will you out my Spirit...
What I meant is the Holy Spirit is not shown to be a separate distinct being from the "Father" the Son yes but not God.
 
Yet there’s more to the story and a reason the Scribes (supposedly the most knowledge Theologians of Jesus’ day on the Law and Prophets who were Jesus’ enemies and eventually put Him to death by Lawless non-Jewish Roman hands) couldn’t answer Him Scriptrually.

David himself said by the Holy Spirit [in Ps 110:1], ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Besitting on My right side until I put Your enemies under Your feet”’.

The Holy Spirit inspired David to author a Psalm which depicts The Lord (113 [e]
la·ḏō·nî,
לַֽאדֹנִ֗י)
speaking to The Lord ( 3068 [e]
Yah·weh
יְהוָ֨ה ׀

So, we have Yahweh speaking to Adoni and The Holy Spirit inspiring David to record it, right?

All pre-incarnation of Jesus Christ, right?
The Son that was, (His spirit) was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him.
 
the trinity has never made any sense to me. the Most High saying many times in the Hebrew bible He is not a man nor son of man and the trinity doctrine says the Most High is a man, Jesus says He is a son of man. just mqakes no sense at all.
News Flash...
Nobody understands the Trinity.

Think of this:
Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Mathew 28:19

If, as some believe, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God, then why word it like this?
If they were correct, then the spirit would already be in the Father and the Son and it would not necessitate repeating the Holy Spirit as a person.

Also, in John 16:7 Jesus speaks of the spirit as a person.
I will send HIM to you...
 
News Flash...
Nobody understands the Trinity.
Well then , what does that tell you in light of the fact that God is not the author of confusion?
1 Corinthians 14:33
If no one understands the trinity, then maybe we should rethink what trinitarian teachers are trying to say about God. Who said of himself all through his own word, he is the only one. And there is no other.
Certainly something to think about.
 
Well then , what does that tell you in light of the fact that God is not the author of confusion?
1 Corinthians 14:33
If no one understands the trinity, then maybe we should rethink what trinitarian teachers are trying to say about God. Who said of himself all through his own word, he is the only one. And there is no other.
Certainly something to think about.
It's ok.
I happen to be Christian and Christian's believe in the Trinity.
The rules are already in place,,,
We don't make up Christianity as we go.
 
It's ok.
I happen to be Christian and Christian's believe in the Trinity.
The rules are already in place,,,
We don't make up Christianity as we go.
I happen to be a Christian.
Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
 
The same way Jesus does as I used His words. He received from the Father. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

In this context Jesus is God - He is all that the Father is.
In this context He is not God- He has always been the Son.

Since Jesus calls the Father the One true God how then do you believe in one God as Jesus stated "Father into your hands I commit my spirit?"
Oh right. I forgot you believe a contradiction to be true. Once again, there is absolutely no context where God can cease to be God. God is always God. Any being that claims, or we claim, to be God in one context and not God in another context, can never, ever be God in any context. Either God or not God.
 
Okay, I appreciate the reply, interaction and honesty. So, as promised here's the main point of the Trinity from another Book (other than The Revelation of Christ Jesus, The Son of God, The Lamb of God, The Word of God):
[But just to show there's no ambiguity in Rev 7:11-12, I'll bold and underline who it is that the angels are worshiping to make it easier to see:]

Revelation 7:10-17Lexham English Bible (LEB)
10 And they were crying out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God
who is seated on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
11 And all the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
“Amen! Praise and glory,
and wisdom and thanksgiving,
and honor and power and strength
be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are dressed in the white robes—who are they, and from where have they come?” 14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me,
“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation,
and have washed their robes
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Because of this, they are before the throne of God,
and they serve him day and night in his temple,
and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them.
16 They will not be hungry any longer or be thirsty any longer,
nor will the sun ever beat down on them, nor any heat,
17 because the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them
and will lead them to springs of living waters,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.


Correct! The Lamb!


Okay, I pick Deuteronomy, in which appears the Shema (morning and bedtime prayer). To which Jesus (The Lamb) refers to at least 11 times such as when He says:

Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus says to him, “Go-away, Satan! For it has been written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only’” [Deut 6:13].

Deuteronomy 6:13-15 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

13 “You shall fear Yahweh your God, and you shall serve him, and by his name you shall swear. 14 You shall not go after other gods from the gods of the peoples who are all around you, 15 for Yahweh your God is a jealous God in your midst, so that the anger of Yahweh your God would be kindled, and he would destroy you from the face of the earth.


i agree with these passages, we worship the Most High and only Him.​
 
Well then , what does that tell you in light of the fact that God is not the author of confusion?
1 Corinthians 14:33
If no one understands the trinity, then maybe we should rethink what trinitarian teachers are trying to say about God. Who said of himself all through his own word, he is the only one. And there is no other.
Certainly something to think about.
That is a misapplication of that verse. That the Trinity is difficult to comprehend has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it is true. If you can fully comprehend the God you believe in, then that is a strong indicator "he" isn't God. God has always existed; he is infinite, we are not.
 
there are 2 words in the Bible with the Name or title Lord
1. LORD - usually or should be all CAPS....is the name of the God of Israel revealed to Moses....YAHWEH
genesis 3:15
this name YAHWEH should have been left in the Bible but was taken out by the Jewish scribes...
during the Babylonian captivity????????
as they felt it was too holy to pronounce...as is the case today.....
they substititued Adonia or the LORD
2. Lord - usually in lower case....title of authority....meaning master...but not supreme God necesarilly!!!!
example:
Sarah called Abraham her lord and master........
1 Peter 3:6
Mark 12:34-37
is basically saying THE LORD(Yahweh) is saying to my Lord(Jesus) sit at my right hand......
Jesus was saying that He is the son of God and greater than the son of David as David called him Lord.....
in other words david is under Jesus is authority......
as Jesus is under God in authority.......

Note : sitting at the right hand shows Jesus is under submission to God the Father(YAHWEH)
and under His authority...not equal to His authority!!!!!!
1 corinthians 15:27-29
again states that Jesus is underneath God in authority....
it makes no sense the Most High would have to sit at any ones right hand.
 
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