Wrg1405
Member
Mind you I was born in the Gorbals Scotland. Once considered the roughest place in Europe.I'm an Aussie and I speak differently to you - it seems. I call a spade a spade.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Is the world really searching for truth?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
What is the worldview that you stated? '
Why don't you read the link I gave you? 'That's true for you, but not true for me' (Paul Copan).
You stated your view in #102: 'One persons truth is another persons lie'. That's relativism and Paul Copan has given you a more comprehensive exposition of that worldview.
If you don't believe that worldview, then please quit saying, 'One persons truth is another persons lie'.
Oz
Seems like a rough spot in the UK. Could be like Redfern, Sydney, in terms of roughness.
I was born in Bundaberg, Qld., Australia and am a cane farmer's son. It's a lovely spot in the sub-tropics of SE Qld, near to the Pacific Ocean.
Oz
Christ_empowered
Member
but...in the world, that's how "truth" works. In Christ, we have Truth, we have absolutes, etc., but for those in the world, "truth" is relative, from their perspective.
For instance: Jenny and Jonny have been married for 5 years. By mutual agreement, they decide upon an "open marriage." Their friend and marriage counselor applaud the decision, declaring it "open minded," "healthy," and "good for the relationship."
God says this is adultery by mutual consent, and it is sin. Jenny's Christian friend, Tammy, tells Jenny just that. Jenny replies "That's your opinion, but this is what is best for us."
Truth? The Christians shake their heads, knowing that this is serious sin and that it will result in much suffering, more than likely. Those in the world, whose "truth" changes with the seasons, are mostly in favor of this arrangement, some more so than others. Those who aren't in agreement are told to be more "tolerant" and less "old fashioned."
As Wrg said, unbelievers create their own truths, mostly lies that they come to accept as truth. Absolute truth does exist (wait for it...wait for it...absolutely), but its ignored by those who are in and of the world, on the broad road, etc.
When I think about Christian Truth versus what different people in the world are selling I think of Romans 1:25, because God will let individuals (and whole societies, it seems) "do their own thing" if He so chooses. I also think of John 18:38.
((finished now))
For instance: Jenny and Jonny have been married for 5 years. By mutual agreement, they decide upon an "open marriage." Their friend and marriage counselor applaud the decision, declaring it "open minded," "healthy," and "good for the relationship."
God says this is adultery by mutual consent, and it is sin. Jenny's Christian friend, Tammy, tells Jenny just that. Jenny replies "That's your opinion, but this is what is best for us."
Truth? The Christians shake their heads, knowing that this is serious sin and that it will result in much suffering, more than likely. Those in the world, whose "truth" changes with the seasons, are mostly in favor of this arrangement, some more so than others. Those who aren't in agreement are told to be more "tolerant" and less "old fashioned."
As Wrg said, unbelievers create their own truths, mostly lies that they come to accept as truth. Absolute truth does exist (wait for it...wait for it...absolutely), but its ignored by those who are in and of the world, on the broad road, etc.
When I think about Christian Truth versus what different people in the world are selling I think of Romans 1:25, because God will let individuals (and whole societies, it seems) "do their own thing" if He so chooses. I also think of John 18:38.
((finished now))
CE,
I was hoping to draw out some understanding of the nature of truth as understood by Christians. There seem to be some restrictive views here of what Christian truth is.
What then is Christian truth? I recommend a read of Norman Geisler, The Nature of Truth, Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
Why don't the folks on this forum take a read of this exposition by a leading apologist and tell us what he is saying about truth?
Oz
Wrg1405
Member
I'm not sure are doing this. The OP is "Is the world really searching for truth"
It makes no reference to Christian truth. But I think it was a lead in to Christian Truth.
I don't think there are restrictive views here of what Christian truth is, but you do, not sure why?
Every Christian on this site know the truth. That truth is Jesus is who he said he is, died for us, rose again.
Sorry Oz going to disagree with you and we may have to agree to disagree.
But my belief is the truth is another persons lie. To them their truth is not a lie but mine is.
Not everyone in this world is a Christian. To followers of all other religions that is their truth and the Christian viewpoint is a lie. That is their viewpoint.
You recommend reading of apologetics and I agree and we should be prepared to defend our viewpoint.
Not everyone is as intelligent as you are or reads like you do. Bear that in mind.
Apologetics does have its place with likewise intellectuals who resist the truth, but for those who are not intellectual it serves diddly squat.
What works for them? Walking in the truth we know. Love, acceptance, Jesus loves them as they are. Coming alongside them as they are, saying hello, offering friendship, offering prayer and so on.
When Jesus walked this earth he told the truth, didn't mince his words. He rebuked the religious establishment but loved the marginalised. No aplogetics involved. Jesus just loved them, met with them and they responded. It changed their worldview point of God.
Not everyone here thinks like you do, bear that in mind, be gentle, be kind and build them up.
Your brother in Christ
Therefore, what is your definition of truth for everyone in the world, Christian or non-Christian?
Wrg1405
Member
Hi Oz,
I hope all is well with you.
You know my thoughts and to be honest I'm not sure I can explain it any clearer than I think I have.
We as believers can tell the world what the truth is. But if they don't accept it then surely they consider it a lie. Just as Pilate did.
John 18:37-38
Pilate said, “So you are a king?”
Jesus responded, “You say I am a king. Actually, I was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. All who love the truth recognize that what I say is true.”
“What is truth?” Pilate asked.
I'm going to reverse your question to me back to you.
Please do not quote your apologetic resources and ask me to read them. I do in fact spend time reading apologetics.
So what is your definition of truth for Christians and non-Christians.
How would you explain this without recommending apologetic resources?
It was I who asked you at #128, 'What is your definition of truth for everyone in the world, Christian or non-Christian?'
I'm still waiting for your definition.
Oz
Christ_empowered
Member
Truth for those in and the world is established through power and consensus. I think Foucault wrote a lot about this, as you probably know already.
How will you know it is the truth? What does truth look like when established by power and consensus?
Does that mean Nazi, Marxist and Castro 'truth' by power is legitimate? By what standard is one going to judge whether 'truth' is just?
Oz
Wrg1405
Member
Why don't you do all us a favour and give your idea and thoughts of truth.
You seem very quick to question our ideas and thoughts but slow to give yours.
I'm still awaiting yours. You asked me and I have asked you. Yet you do not deem it fit to answer but only question.
If you have an answer that you beleive then please give it. BUT do not come across as ridiculing people's response to this post. If you have a point to make then do it lovingly.
I'm not even sure that if don't we agree with you then you think we are wrong and you are right.
I also think that if I gave my idea of truth then you would pick holes in it.
So to me Jesus is the truth, he is real he himself said "I'm the way truth and life"
Truth conforms to reality, the reality is that Jesus walked this earth, performed many miracles, was crucified and died and rose again. That's my truth.
As I have said my truth is not someone else's, therefore it's not truth and lie.
I've already given my definition of truth, beginning with #102 and extending to 107, 109, 115 and 125.
Oz
Wrg1405
Member
And I've given mine
Where? Do you mean your statement: 'my truth is not someone else's'? Is that your version of truth?
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As I've already explained, this view of truth has horrific consequences:
- somebody else's truth is robbery and murder. Yours is not that but it doesn't provide ethical parameters to stop shocking abuse.
- the same applies for genocide vs no killing.
- paedophilia vs purity.
Oz
Have you listened to 'Richard Dawkins on the truth'? He says he's interested in truth as a leading scientist and atheist/agnostic. So here's one eminent public person on science who claims he's interested in the truth, but not Christian truth.
His view is that religion should not be exempt from criticism. This is one point on which I can agree with him.
Oz
Wrg1405
Member
Given above.
John 17:17-19 NKJV
[17] Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. [18] As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. …
Truth to me is the above, it's what I believe and try to live my life by.
My belief in Jesus is my truth yet someone who does not believe it and thinks it's rubbish, to them then what I believe is a lie.
That's what I mean by one persons truth is another persons lie.
With regards to your comments about the consequences of relativism I totally agree with you. And I would never condone such behaviour.
People who want commit such crimes are not interested in the truth know matter how you put it, unless of course it gives them license to commit such crimes. We have laws in place to protect people but people still break them.
Christ_empowered
Member
I don't think acknowledging that our truth, as Christians, is not the "truth" of unbelievers is dabbling in relativism. I think its just stating the obvious.