Is the world...

[Free]

Indeed. I just doubt that what the Bible says and what God says are always entirely the same thing, which appears to be your assumption.

The problem here seems to be that you don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety and therefore authoritative in all it says. In that case, throw out the Bible. Either take all of it or take none of it; there is no middle ground.

God's wrath? Been there. Done that. Got that T shirt. And came out the other side, intact and improved. You can't frighten me with it, any more.

Not at all trying to frighten. Just stating what the Bible says on the matter.

I've been called a cherry-picker, as if there was something wrong with believing stuff you think is true, and disbelieving stuff you don't. There is lots in the Gospels I like, and forms part of my world view, and lots in Genesis I don't, and doesn't. As I said earlier:

Yes, there very much is something wrong with cherry-picking. It is one thing to disagree about what the Bible says in places, it is quite another to just discard what one doesn't like.

[we}are no longer the ignorant peasants and serfs the religion was designed to control. [There should be] A recognition, maybe, that we are endowed with intellects, discriminatory powers and critical faculties because God intends for us to use them, even (perhaps especially) on scripture.

Which is irrelevant and highly misleading. First, "the religion" was never designed to control anyone. Secondly, this was all dealt with at the Reformation. Thirdly, of course God intends for us to use our intellects, our ability to reason and think critically, when we approach Scripture, but we are never to do that without the aid of the Holy Spirit as well. We are also never to do it alone either.

The irony is, you want everyone to be in the family of God, quite strongly it seems, but then you set about interpreting and understanding Scripture on your own, ignoring nearly 2000 years of teaching on Christian beliefs. Followers of Christ are called to be in community, and some even say that that is so central, that one cannot be a Christian if they shun being in community with other believers. If what you believe the Bible says on a given matter goes against 2000 years of Christian teaching, then that should be a huge red flag to you that something is likely wrong in what you believe.

Hmmm. If I don't like the phrase 'true Christian', I like the phrase 'true children of God' even less.

I use "true Christian" because the majority, maybe even a significant majority, of those who profess to be Christians most likely are not. Most are "cultural Christians," Christian in name only, and don't even know what it means to be a follower of Christ. The NT is very clear that only those who believe in Jesus, in his name, are the children of God.

Who are those of other faiths, and none? His illegitimate, bastard children, to be bundled into the fiery furnace without ceremony and just as rapidly as possible? Sorry, but that sounds way too Nazi and really doesn't work for me, and I very much doubt it works for a good and just God, either.

"Good and just." Be careful that you understand what you are saying, as it seems that you haven't actually thought through your argument. If God created us in his image, to be in relationship with him, but we rebelled against him and so deserve punishment, then you need to think very carefully about what a good and just God should do with those who live their lives in continuous rebellion against him, even rejecting the very means he provides for their salvation and reconciliation to him.

Nor do I like the implication of favouritism you and conventional Christianity seem comfortable with. Favouritism doesn't work in families, and it doesn't work in organisations or nations either (where it is known as corruption, nepotism or cronyism). Just who do you think God is? An omnipotent Trump?

What favoritism?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm. If the book you read was the God Delusion, well done for getting through it. His biology is good, but his theology sucks. Which is probably not all that surprising in an atheist for whom, he admits, theology is a 'non-subject'. But the point is that his background, training and credentials are in biology, about which he knows a good deal. And evolution is a biological topic, not a theological one. Whatever theological implications it has are accidental, not deliberate.

Not tough getting through that book. Of course he wrote it for the common man and, yes, his theology is terrible.
I think this goes to 1 Cor 2:14 - natural man, or a disbeliever, does not understand the things of God.

His background is in biology, yes, but I posted some scientists that do not agree with him.
I cannot accept evolution at this time. At least not macro-evolution. Although it may be proven some day, which would not create a problem for me because it does seem that there are times when the animal changes suddenly...like the Cambrian explosion which is not easily explained. We can't be sure of how God decided, or when He dedided to create man.

That said, it does have theological implications. And they need to be resolved. Not by simply rejecting the Theory of Evolution, for which there is considerable objective evidence, because it contradicts Genesis, for which there is none, but by exploring the science, deciding what it tells us, and what it doesn't tell us, about God's world, and thereby by implication, about God.

I don't think it's not accepted because it contradicts Genesis. I don't know anyone that believes snakes speak.
When we have some empirical evidence for evolution, then it will be readily acceptable. Christians are not dumb you know, if something can be proven it must be accepted.

It is quite true that science is continually changing, contnually uprating it's world view in the light of new evidence and better theories that account for that new evidence. But that is it's strength, not a weakness. God may not change, but our understanding of Him and His world certainly does. Or should, if we let it, and quit with the arrogant assumption that we already know everything there is to know about both.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I don't think it's arrogant to rely on objective moralism.
I don't think anyone on this forum thinks they know everything about God.
The ultimate revelation of God is certainly Jesus.
But I'm sure we don't know everything about God.
Could an ant know everything about a human?
No. Only what it is capable of observing/understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, my position, for what it's worth, on ethics, is this: God's Law is objective, and wholly ethically accurate. He wants us to be ethical, because He loves us, wants what's best for us, and an ethical life is the best way to live.

Agreed.

Only thing is, He leaves us to work out what is ethical, and why it's ethical. It's an ongoing project for us.

Hmmm. I don't understand why.
I think Jesus made it very clear how we are to behave.
Can you think of anything He didn't think of?
I can't - that doesn't mean there isn't something.

The Old Testament was an early first draft, superceded by Jesus' revelations recorded in the New Testament, and developed further by ethicists since. But, we still do not know what objective ethics are, or how we shall know we know, if and as and when we do. It's just one of life's big, and therefore interesting, questions, in that we do not have answers, and do not even know how to get at those answers.

Meanwhile, the best we can do is remain current with the ethical state of the art.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I agree with your first sentences. That does not mean the OT is irrelevant to me, it just means that it was offered to a very primitive people and I doubt they understood everything the way we do today - or even at Jesus' time.

I'd say that we can know ethics in the "civilized" world.
There exists the problem of different cultures having different ethics...but that is quite rare and becoming ever more rare as the world becomes smaller.

This is a complicated subject matter...but I can say that in civilized cultures, ethics are the same.

 

[Edward]

Hmmm. I don't understand why.
I think Jesus made it very clear how we are to behave.
Can you think of anything He didn't think of?
I can't - that doesn't mean there isn't something.

He told us absolutely everything about how to behave and even how to think! So it is not left up to us to work out what is ethical. It is left up to us to work out if we will do the ethical thing or not. That is all, to make the choice.

Unless someones conscience is seared people will always hear the good choice in their conscience of what to do, how to handle this situation and so forth.

So do you (we) want to do the best thing? Trust your own conscience and make that choice.
(wah, but that;ll cost me more and cut into my fun money, lol!) so people don't always do the most that they could do.

But as it is written, treat others the way that you would want them to treat you if the shoe was on the other foot. So go the extra every time if you can. He asked for you to go a mile with him? Go 2 miles with him. What do you mean can I spare some chang so you can eat? You can't eat on change. You can't even get a decent meal for 5 bucks anymore. So you give the guy 20 instead. Now he can eat for a dayor so. That's how I would want someone to help me if I was in need, so I'm real clear on that!

If Jesus asked for some change from you, would you given Him change or a 20?! Well it is written, the least you do for one of these in need is, as you do it unto Jesus Himself. hmmm, shoulda been 40 Lol.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Either take all of it or take none of it; there is no middle ground.

Yes there is.. Believe the stuff that's, true, disbelieve the stuff that isn't.

Not at all trying to frighten. Just stating what the Bible says on the matter.

Yes you were, or why mention it at all?

Yes, there very much is something wrong with cherry-picking. It is one thing to disagree about what the Bible says in places, it is quite another to just discard what one doesn't like.

When I said 'like' I like the stuff that seems true to me, and dislike the stuff that doesn't.

Which is irrelevant and highly misleading. First, "the religion" was never designed to control anyone. Secondly, this was all dealt with at the Reformation. Thirdly, of course God intends for us to use our intellects, our ability to reason and think critically, when we approach Scripture, but we are never to do that without the aid of the Holy Spirit as well. We are also never to do it alone either.

The irony is, you want everyone to be in the family of God, quite strongly it seems, but then you set about interpreting and understanding Scripture on your own, ignoring nearly 2000 years of teaching on Christian beliefs. Followers of Christ are called to be in community, and some even say that that is so central, that one cannot be a Christian if they shun being in community with other believers. If what you believe the Bible says on a given matter goes against 2000 years of Christian teaching, then that should be a huge red flag to you that something is likely wrong in what you believe.

Just because something is old and traditional, does not mean it is accurate.

I use "true Christian" because the majority, maybe even a significant majority, of those who profess to be Christians most likely are not. Most are "cultural Christians," Christian in name only, and don't even know what it means to be a follower of Christ. The NT is very clear that only those who believe in Jesus, in his name, are the children of God.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

"Good and just." Be careful that you understand what you are saying, as it seems that you haven't actually thought through your argument. If God created us in his image, to be in relationship with him, but we rebelled against him and so deserve punishment, then you need to think very carefully about what a good and just God should do with those who live their lives in continuous rebellion against him, even rejecting the very means he provides for their salvation and reconciliation to him.

What rebellion? From what I can make out, for example, most Muslims and most Jews are as pious and devout as even you could possibly want.

What favoritism?

The favouritism that sees heaven as the sole preserve of Christians.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I'd say that we can know ethics in the "civilized" world.

The philosopher's tripartite model of knowedge is that it is 'justified, true, belief.'

I can tell you now, for certain sure, that even in the civilised world, at this time we cannot justify our ethics and ethical systems, beyond doubt and questioning. And if we can't wholly and completely justify them, we obviously do not know whether or not they are true and accurate representations of God's objective law. The best we can do currently is to allow everyone their say, as we do in democracies when we choose our governments. And while there is a certain amount of consensus, there is also considerable disagreement to discover on close examination. Even among Christians! So, as the Chinese curse wishes upon the accursed, we live in interesting times.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. I don't understand why.
I think Jesus made it very clear how we are to behave.
Can you think of anything He didn't think of?
I can't - that doesn't mean there isn't something.

Well, Jesus' ethical approach was strategic, rather than tactical. There are, for example, His two great commandments:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And He endorsed the Golden rule:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

But when it came to specifics, He was either cryptic or spoke in parables, leaving for us to decide what He actually meant.

And there were some specifics He didn't address, at all:, for example, the treatment of animals, and the treatment of homosexuals, and the treatment of women. And modern life and modern living keeps on throwing up more moral conundrums for us to resolve, particularly in medicine and medical science, in society, in the economy, and in politics, and of course, the really big, existential issues around the environment.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Free]

Yes there is.. Believe the stuff that's, true, disbelieve the stuff that isn't.

How do you determine what is true and what isn't?

When I said 'like' I like the stuff that seems true to me, and dislike the stuff that doesn't.

"Seems true to me." This seems very subjective. It is certainly a dangerous way to do theology. It will lead a person into error 10 times out of 10.

Just because something is old and traditional, does not mean it is accurate.

While that is true, it is hard not to notive that you ignored the main thrust of my argument. You're trying to do your biblical interpretation completely isolated from the very community you argue that everyone in the world belongs to. Why is that? Why do you want everyone to be a part of the community if you're shutting that community out where it matters most (doctrine)?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Which part, "The NT is very clear that only those who believe in Jesus, in his name, are the children of God"?

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Therefore do not become partners with them;
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

(All ESV.)

There are two things I have shown: 1) that salvation is only through having faith in the Jesus of the Bible, and 2) that only those who saved are the children of God (in the biblical sense). And, of course, there are many more passages that speak of those who reject Christ and the gospel. If you continue to disagree, then you disagree with Christ and your problem is with him and the Bible, not me and not Christianity.

I'll give you one more:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

By saying this, Jesus is implying what he has been saying all along--everyone else in the world has it wrong and is in need of salvation, which is accomplished only through believing in him and his work and following him. There is quite literally a mountain of biblical evidence against your position on this.

What rebellion? From what I can make out, for example, most Muslims and most Jews are as pious and devout as even you could possibly want.

Being pious, devout, and sincere are absolutely irrelevant if one's beliefs are wrong, as I have pointed out with numerous passages. Muslims largely reject the Christ of the Bible; they certainly don't believe that he died on the cross, which is a necessary belief for salvation. Most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, so that leaves them out, too.

The favouritism that sees heaven as the sole preserve of Christians.

For Christians, for whom the Bible is the supreme authority on all matters of faith, heaven is for true followers of Christ only because that is what the Bible states.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

... perfect because it's imperfect? I sometimes like to consider this paradox. If the world was perfect, and had no imperfections, there would be nothing of any importance left to do. I think we would quickly grow bored.

Best wishes to you all. 2RM.

Saying a perfect world is boring is like saying a world where everyone obeyed the law would be boring. Does anyone really think that a country where no one stole anything, no murders happened, no one lied about others would be boring? Think of all the troubles we won’t have because everyone is loving others like Jesus!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is no evil in the New Jerusalem. None of us knows what we will do there, but I don't think being with Jesus is going to be boring.

I’m going to ask Him to explain things. It will be thrilling!

 

[2ndRateMind]

Is the world perfect because it's imperfect?

Saying a perfect world is boring is like saying a world where everyone obeyed the law would be boring. Does anyone really think that a country where no one stole anything, no murders happened, no one lied about others would be boring? Think of all the troubles we won’t have because everyone is loving others like Jesus!

I agree that it would be a better world if no one committed any crime, because no one needed to. Ideally, that would be one of the things we work towards, as individuals and as nations. 'Til we get there, it's an ongoing project for us. And one that provides plenty with gainful employment (politicians, the police, lawyers, criminologists etc) and something meaningful to do with their lives. If and as and when we reach our happy, crime free state, they will have to find another project to involve themselves in. And that is the point about an imperfect world; there is, and probably always will be, something of importance left to do. Something through which we can develop our characters and virtues, rid ourselves of our vices, and so befit ourselves for an eternal life in the presence of God. So, my thinking goes, maybe the world isn't so imperfect, after all. Maybe it was created by God that way deliberately, to be perfect for us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Being pious, devout, and sincere are absolutely irrelevant if one's beliefs are wrong, as I have pointed out with numerous passages. Muslims largely reject the Christ of the Bible; they certainly don't believe that he died on the cross, which is a necessary belief for salvation. Most Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, so that leaves them out, too.

I can't see God punishing anyone who believes in Him and loves HIm, and has led, on account of that, a reasonably decent sort of life.

So, I'm going to bite this bullet. As you have pointed out, Jesus said (John 14:5 KJV)

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What if He was just plain wrong about that?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[eddif]

Genesis 1:31 kjv
31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

What I am about to say. I have said mostly before. I am going to try and expand. Add to - I hope not. Give full understanding - I hope so.
Let those prophets standing by judge.

What level of good was creation?
Creation:
Very good!

I read through a lot of different translations and the vast majority were very good. 4? Read very pleasing.

Perfect was not a word describing creation. Can a translation exist that says perfect? Maybe.

The number 7 is often considered complete (very good?). A rating of 7 is seen as near complete.

6 days of creation plus one day of rest equals 7,

Eastern thought uses 10 for a high level.

I have a thought about numbers. My thought, and it may be wrong or sub standard.

7 to the first power equals 7.
For perfection to appear it may need a much higher number.

12x12 = 144 - 12 squared
144x12=1,728 - 12 3rd power
1728x12=20,736 - 4th power

Now my ignorance? Where does 144,000 come from? To me this might be some form of completeness or maybe perfection.

The 20,736x7 gets close

In any case perfection is far above very good. IMHO

Why all this number junk? How do some people raise the very good of creation to perfection.

Creation was very good. But it will take the return of Jesus for the change (at the last trump) to bring what we will be into an eternal reality.

We can not go back to Eden to see perfection. Eden had the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Very good place, but not perfect.

Even today with the Holy Spirit, we are not complete. The last trump is in the future awaiting the saints.

Have I tried to not add or take away from scripture? I hope so. Did I do a perfect job? No.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[2ndRateMind]

How do you determine what is true and what isn't?

You read a lot, and then use that intellect, those discriminatory powers and critical faculties I referred to earlier, to reach the judgment that seems appropriate to you.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree that it would be a better world if no one committed any crime, because no one needed to. Ideally, that would be one of the things we work towards, as individuals and as nations. 'Til we get there, it's an ongoing project for us. And one that provides plenty with gainful employment (politicians, the police, lawyers, criminologists etc) and something meaningful to do with their lives. If and as and when we reach our happy, crime free state, they will have to find another project to involve themselves in. And that is the point about an imperfect world; there is, and probably always will be, something of importance left to do. Something through which we can develop our characters and virtues, rid ourselves of our vices, and so befit ourselves for an eternal life in the presence of God. So, my thinking goes, maybe the world isn't so imperfect, after all. Maybe it was created by God that way deliberately, to be perfect for us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

How do you understand these scriptures that say this world will be dissolved and pass away as all things will be renewed again. There will be no more wickedness within the New Jerusalem as when Christ returns he will destroy all that reject Him casting them into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[2ndRateMind]

How do you understand these scriptures that say this world will be dissolved and pass away as all things will be renewed again. There will be no more wickedness within the New Jerusalem as when Christ returns he will destroy all that reject Him casting them into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sorry, I'm just not in the business of prophecy, especially on a Biblical scale. The best I can do is spot trends, and guess at where they might lead to over the short term (the next couple of hundred years). One thing I do suspect though, is that the end of the world will not be quite so discontinuous as the folks of those times thought.

Best wishes 2RM.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree that it would be a better world if no one committed any crime, because no one needed to.

The worse thieves are rich. No one needs to commit a crime. They want to do so.

Ideally, that would be one of the things we work towards, as individuals and as nations. 'Til we get there, it's an ongoing project for us.

We won’t get there until all belong to Hum and behave accordingly.

And one that provides plenty with gainful employment (politicians, the police, lawyers, criminologists etc) and something meaningful to do with their lives. If and as and when we reach our happy, crime free state, they will have to find another project to involve themselves in.

It won’t be hard. They’ll be more satisfying work than we know now.

And that is the point about an imperfect world; there is, and probably always will be, something of importance left to do.

Cleaning up other’s dirt is not preferable to the dirt being gone and real accomplishments can be obtained.

Something through which we can develop our characters and virtues, rid ourselves of our vices, and so befit ourselves for an eternal life in the presence of God. So, my thinking goes, maybe the world isn't so imperfect, after all. Maybe it was created by God that way deliberately, to be perfect for us.

No, this is definitely less than He planned. People do horrible things to others and it’s best to admit this and not pretend it’s all for the good.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry, I'm just not in the business of prophecy, especially on a Biblical scale. The best I can do is spot trends, and guess at where they might lead to over the short term (the next couple of hundred years). One thing I do suspect though, is that the end of the world will not be quite so discontinuous as the folks of those times thought.

Best wishes 2RM.

How can you not consider and choose to ignore that which has already been written of all that which has been prophesied in the Bible of what happens to the earth after final judgement. Do you not believe what will happen to this world and all the people that are in it when Christ returns?

You have two choices to make as in believing what has already been written, or to believe whatever you want to make up in your own mind.

 

[eddif]

The worse thieves are rich. No one needs to commit a crime. They want to do so.

We won’t get there until all belong to Hum and behave accordingly.

It won’t be hard. They’ll be more satisfying work than we know now.

Cleaning up other’s dirt is not preferable to the dirt being gone and real accomplishments can be obtained.

No, this is definitely less than He planned. People do horrible things to others and it’s best to admit this and not pretend it’s all for the good.

And 2ndRateMind
Proverbs 30:8 kjv
8. Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
9. Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.

Now this was under the law. Humanly speaking this is still what tends to happen before the Holy Spirit.

Too mich money and your time is spent deciding what interior you want in your new Mercedes ( no time for God - type of theft).

Too little money and you will do what you got to do to to take care of food and clothing (for you and family).

Public dole helps?

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

He told us absolutely everything about how to behave and even how to think! So it is not left up to us to work out what is ethical. It is left up to us to work out if we will do the ethical thing or not. That is all, to make the choice.

Unless someones conscience is seared people will always hear the good choice in their conscience of what to do, how to handle this situation and so forth.

So do you (we) want to do the best thing? Trust your own conscience and make that choice.
(wah, but that;ll cost me more and cut into my fun money, lol!) so people don't always do the most that they could do.

But as it is written, treat others the way that you would want them to treat you if the shoe was on the other foot. So go the extra every time if you can. He asked for you to go a mile with him? Go 2 miles with him. What do you mean can I spare some chang so you can eat? You can't eat on change. You can't even get a decent meal for 5 bucks anymore. So you give the guy 20 instead. Now he can eat for a dayor so. That's how I would want someone to help me if I was in need, so I'm real clear on that!

If Jesus asked for some change from you, would you given Him change or a 20?! Well it is written, the least you do for one of these in need is, as you do it unto Jesus Himself. hmmm, shoulda been 40 Lol.

Amen.
Agreed on all.

We know what is ethical if we want to know it...
Some just don't want to, as you've said above.