IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Chopper]

Only scripture.

13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-14,17

I have made a note on your post, please wait for when we discuss this subject.

 

[Brother Mike]

...how God would be able to keep his anointed and faithful on the Earth - But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:37

Brother, only the 144,000 are sealed on the forehead and protected.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

You and I are not here, God just has his hand on these 144,000 Jewish men. They are the only ones that don't get attacked by monsters, everyone else on the planet has to face them. WE ARE NOT HERE!!!

Jesus comes in the air for the church, one taken the other left. The ones taken are the ones that were found to be faithful servants.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(Mat 24:42-44)

One taken, one left. This is the gathering of the Saints that Paul talked about. We don't know the hour here, Jesus just comes in the clouds and we are grabbed.

It's immediately after tribulation we know exactly when he comes down to the half hour becuse the 7th seal brings 1/2 hour of silence on the earth after the sun, moon and stars get blasted.

He does not take us then, He removes the tares and cast them into the winepress of the wrath of God. Every eye on the planet will see him come and he will sit down on Mount Sion (Rev 14)

What you planing to do JLB?

If your filled with the Holy Spirit, and walk by faith.............. You just going to find the Son of perdition and cast the spirit of the Antichrist out of him? You know you would have the right and ability to do so as Your Lord said "I GIVE YOU POWER OVER THE ENEMY"

Your going to mess up the whole book of Revelation for God...................... Do you really want to be responsible for that?

You have to come with us, I don't think you could be trusted to stay down here.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

One taken, one left. This is the gathering of the Saints that Paul talked about. We don't know the hour here, Jesus just comes in the clouds and we are grabbed.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew13:40-41

 

[JLB]

I have made a note on your post, please wait for when we discuss this subject.

Please let me know when it is time to discuss this part.


Thanks JLB

 

[reba]

lol Mike not fair to make me laugh rephrase away from the personal... Moderator.... We have all heard that old line from folks in heaven " How did YOU get here"

 

[Chopper]

OK gang, I see that you are anxious to start proving pre, mid, post, trib positions. First I will show you what we have so far as an introduction to this new theology. I. WHO GOES WHEN THE LORD COMES IN THE AIR.
Post #2 - OhFarouk - 1 Thess. 4:16,17 - Jesus will bring those who have died (Christians) and those who remain (Christians) will be caught up together in the
clouds.
Post #5 - Mike - Matt. 24 & Luke 21 - Only the faithful, those who faithfully follow Christ's commands. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience". The Lord
is a person not a system.
Post # 19 - Edward - 2 Tim. 4:8 - Christians who "love His appearing" will go. And Post#8 - At the first gathering, some will go and some stay.

These three positions will be the official requirements for Christians to meet if they qualify for the rapture, whenever it is....Is everyone ok with this?

 

[JLB]

OK JLB, First, we must determine who goes and who stays. I have made a note on your post in favor of "post-Trib". We will discuss the timing of the rapture next.

I don't find that concept in scripture, as it is presented here.

I would say that we need to determine where do people "go" first.

I see a Resurrection first, then a Rapture for the purpose of the Lord gathering His people together.

Once we are gathered to Him, where does the Lord and His People go?

The scripture does not teach we go to heaven at the Resurrection/Rapture.

It does teach we go to heaven when we die.

I believe the Scripture teaches we will be with the Lord when the Resurrection take place.

I believe the Lord comes from heaven and heads straight to Jerusalem, to destroy the lawless one in the temple and sit on His throne of Glory.

I believe when the saints are caught up with Him on His descent from heaven to Jerusalem, there, in the air, we will all have received our new everlasting spiritual bodies that will never die.

I believe we will continue with Him to Jerusalem where His feet will rest on the Mount of Olives, and He will sit on His Throne to judge the nations.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32


JLB

 

[JLB]

Brother, only the 144,000 are sealed on the forehead and protected.
You and I are not here, God just has his hand on these 144,000 Jewish men. They are the only ones that don't get attacked by monsters, everyone else on the planet has to face them. WE ARE NOT HERE!!!

Two distinct groups here during the 3 1/2 year Trib.

14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:14-17

...the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place. {Group # 1}

This is the same operation that the children of Israel were protected by the Cloud by day and the Fire by night, as they went into the wilderness from Egypt.


...the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. {Group # 2}


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

These three positions will be the official requirements for Christians to meet if they qualify for the rapture, whenever it is....Is everyone ok with this?

Luk_12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Well, the whole context Jesus said was not that we just hang out here on Earth and try to keep from sinning. Everyone has something to be doing and finding the plan of God for their life. Jesus said those that "KNEW" his will and did not prepare or did according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes.

For example, I know the Lord told me to do a few things and repeated them to me the other day. Be on the Parking lot team, Be at Healing School. I have not been 100% faithful in just those simple things and plan to get that in line right away.

Chopper, it would seem the Lord spares those that Call Jesus Lord and do his will. They don't have to endure the trumpets and other nasty things. The Problem I see is that the Lord said they would be beaten with many stripes or go through things God never intended for them to go through if they do not obey the Lord and His calling on them.

Many are never taught they are suppose to hear God and do what He says do.................... I suspect they might be spared if they honestly did not know in their heart what they were suppose to be doing.

So the problem I see is crossing over that line of being saved to be with God or not saved to be in Hell. There seems to be so many branches to take here.
Jesus warned this.......

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

At the start of this tribulation with the trumpets, Seals and vials. Everyone written in the book shall be delivered. Michael the Arch Angel will stand with the Lord, and the Lord will sound "HIS" trumpet, the trump of God and call us up. Paul also mentions Michael the Arch angel there when we are called up.

(Michael aint around or mentioned when some angel blows the 7th angelic trumpet)

So the question................. your name gets removed from the book of life as Jesus mentioned and only those in the Book as Danial said are delivered at the time this tribulation starts?

What does that do with the OSAS theory?



Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Luk_12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Well, the whole context Jesus said was not that we just hang out here on Earth and try to keep from sinning. Everyone has something to be doing and finding the plan of God for their life. Jesus said those that "KNEW" his will and did not prepare or did according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes.

For example, I know the Lord told me to do a few things and repeated them to me the other day. Be on the Parking lot team, Be at Healing School. I have not been 100% faithful in just those simple things and plan to get that in line right away.

Chopper, it would seem the Lord spares those that Call Jesus Lord and do his will. They don't have to endure the trumpets and other nasty things. The Problem I see is that the Lord said they would be beaten with many stripes or go through things God never intended for them to go through if they do not obey the Lord and His calling on them.

Many are never taught they are suppose to hear God and do what He says do.................... I suspect they might be spared if they honestly did not know in their heart what they were suppose to be doing.

So the problem I see is crossing over that line of being saved to be with God or not saved to be in Hell. There seems to be so many branches to take here.
Jesus warned this.......

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

At the start of this tribulation with the trumpets, Seals and vials. Everyone written in the book shall be delivered. Michael the Arch Angel will stand with the Lord, and the Lord will sound "HIS" trumpet, the trump of God and call us up. Paul also mentions Michael the Arch angel there when we are called up.

(Michael aint around or mentioned when some angel blows the 7th angelic trumpet)

So the question................. your name gets removed from the book of life as Jesus mentioned and only those in the Book as Danial said are delivered at the time this tribulation starts?

What does that do with the OSAS theory?



Mike.

I like those verses Mike. To answer your question; I have asked myself that question a million times. That is why I come up with the "general call of the Gospel" I believe that the "elect" those chosen before the foundations of the world are the ones that will not loose their Salvation. So your OSAS applies ONLY to them. Those who come in through the GC are the ones who have to maintain their Salvation or "Faith" until the end. Proof? look at all the "if's" in Hebrews.

 

[Chopper]

Please let me know when it is time to discuss this part.


Thanks JLB

Check out my #51 post. When everyone OK's it we will move to your topic. We have to have rules to keep this thread on the right track. Otherwise we'll bog down with nothing but a debate. I think that debating pre, post, mid, have been battled before and this thread is not a debate but a learning process.

 

[Brother Mike]

I like those verses Mike. To answer your question; I have asked myself that question a million times. That is why I come up with the "general call of the Gospel" I believe that the "elect" those chosen before the foundations of the world are the ones that will not loose their Salvation. So your OSAS applies ONLY to them. Those who come in through the GC are the ones who have to maintain their Salvation or "Faith" until the end. Proof? look at all the "if's" in Hebrews.

Who are these "Super Saved" folk? To me all that are in Christ Jesus whom was to be made known before the foundation of the World would have just as much responsibility as any "Super Saved" folk. God is no respecter of persons, but of faith.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The Word of the Lord came out from the foundation of the World by the Prophets...... (Which many had been killed)

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(Rev 17:8)

Names have been recorded and actions chosen from the foundation of the Word going out.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We know God kept a record by People's response to the Word. Revelation tells us the names have been put in the book from the Foundation of the World.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We know without someone sending the Word out, nobody can believe or else the Holy Spirit is wrong here. From the foundation of the World the prophets spoke, men believed, names recorded.

We have 2 scriptures left to deal with...............that speak of "BEFORE" the foundation of the World.

Since the Word of God can not contradict anywhere........... We have to view these scriptures in light of the others.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


I don't see anyone being Chosen here Chopper "Before" the foundation of the World. I see the propets here as Jesus said from the foundation of the World, Names added to the book "From" the foundation.

I don't even see a plan for God to have to send his son before the foundation of the World once you compare scriptures and I take just what Jesus said.

Peter says Jesus was foreordained before the Word was created........

Jesus said:

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus had been given glory before the earth was even created.

Chopper, I am not finding this picked before the foundation world. I find that everyone had to respond by choice to the Word of the Lord as faith only came by hearing the Word of God.

Besides, the Earth had already been made when God said to the son........................... Let us make man in our image.

The plan to make man came "AFTER" the Earth was made. Looking at Peter it might seem Jesus was destined to come for us but Peter says he was just foreordained before the World was made and we find Out from Jesus that God had already given him power and glory before the Earth was made, it does not denote He had to come and die for us yet. Adam made that choice for us and Him.

Do you have any other scripture to shed light on these "Super Saved" folks?

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Who are these "Super Saved" folk? To me all that are in Christ Jesus whom was to be made known before the foundation of the World would have just as much responsibility as any "Super Saved" folk. God is no respecter of persons, but of faith.

Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The Word of the Lord came out from the foundation of the World by the Prophets...... (Which many had been killed)

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(Rev 17:8)

Names have been recorded and actions chosen from the foundation of the Word going out.

Deu_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

We know God kept a record by People's response to the Word. Revelation tells us the names have been put in the book from the Foundation of the World.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

We know without someone sending the Word out, nobody can believe or else the Holy Spirit is wrong here. From the foundation of the World the prophets spoke, men believed, names recorded.

We have 2 scriptures left to deal with...............that speak of "BEFORE" the foundation of the World.

Since the Word of God can not contradict anywhere........... We have to view these scriptures in light of the others.

Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Heb_1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


I don't see anyone being Chosen here Chopper "Before" the foundation of the World. I see the propets here as Jesus said from the foundation of the World, Names added to the book "From" the foundation.

I don't even see a plan for God to have to send his son before the foundation of the World once you compare scriptures and I take just what Jesus said.

Peter says Jesus was foreordained before the Word was created........

Jesus said:

Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus had been given glory before the earth was even created.

Chopper, I am not finding this picked before the foundation world. I find that everyone had to respond by choice to the Word of the Lord as faith only came by hearing the Word of God.

Besides, the Earth had already been made when God said to the son........................... Let us make man in our image.

The plan to make man came "AFTER" the Earth was made. Looking at Peter it might seem Jesus was destined to come for us but Peter says he was just foreordained before the World was made and we find Out from Jesus that God had already given him power and glory before the Earth was made, it does not denote He had to come and die for us yet. Adam made that choice for us and Him.

Do you have any other scripture to shed light on these "Super Saved" folks?

Mike.

OK Mike, you have me thinking! I could be wrong....In Ephesians 1:4 it says "even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world......." These are the "elect" right?

 

[Sinthesis]

Hello Chopper. I like this thread. This is a great idea. One thing though we must take into consideration before we start, in my opinion, is something that has given me a lot of trouble. When was the book of Revelation written, in the 90's AD or before 70 AD and the destruction of the temple. If the book was written in the 90's then Revelation is a book of prophesies that still have not come to be but if it was written in the 60's, then most of the prophesies of the book could have already happened except the 2nd coming of Jesus. I've struggled with this.
Why does Revelation say "these things must have soon," and why is there no mention of the destruction of the temple in the book?

This really is a fulcrum. I personally believe Revelation was written before 70AD. If one believes it was written in the 90's AD (as I once did) it is necessary to assign 'coming' judgements that have their precedents in the OT to a Christian world rather than a Jewish one, confusing the two. The contortions required to do this end up being contradictory and sow discord within the Church. I believe the only way to correctly understand Christian end-times requires we learn from the other examples of end-times given in the scriptures and throughout history, and then consider how the Gospel of Jesus Christ will allow His Church to avoid the judgment of those pitfalls while still being the light on Earth. This means setting aside preconceptions, and chief among them is when Revelation was written.

 

[Sinthesis]

Hello Chopper. This is what I found on the dating of Revelation and Irenaeous.

Consider this passage from his writings.
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign."
First, the translation problem. The statement “that was seen” (or “it was seen”) grammatically may refer either to one of two antecedents. It may refer either to “the apocalyptic vision” (i.e., Revelation) or to “him who beheld the apocalyptic vision” (i.e., John). Here the verb may legitimately be translated either “it was seen” or “he was seen.”
Second, if this reference speaks of the date of the writing of Revelation and not the date to which John the author lived, then we have an unusual situation. Earlier in the same chapter Irenaeus speaks of “ancient copies” of Revelation (Heresies 5:30:1). Would he argue in one paragraph about the ancient copies of the book and then a few paragraphs later about the book’s original composition near to his own time? Surely the book was written earlier — in “ancient” times — even though John himself is presumed to have lived almost into Irenaeus’ day.
Third assuming the common translation of Irenaeus’ statement, we must note that a major element of his proof is his reference to eyewitnesses. But Irenaeus uses eyewitnesses in another place to prove that Jesus lived to be almost fifty years old!! Consider this passage from his writings - "But the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught."
How reliable is Irenaeous then for dating Revelations if he writes that Jesus was 50 years old when he was crucified. Therefore, I believe Revelation can be dated more reliably from the Scriptures themselves. This is what I've discovered on this.

1 -The many "coming soon" and "at hand" passages (1:1, 2:16, 3:11, 22:6-20) only make sense if events matching the symbolism of Revelation were not too far in the future. The Jewish themes would make no sense after 70 A.D. - there was nothing left of the Jewish state.
2- The Beast (which most if not all scholars agree represents Rome) was ruled by its 6th head ("head" = "king" see: 17:10) which was already in existence in John's day. Of the 7 heads (kings) only one was left - by 95 A.D. Rome was long past its 7th Caesar.
3 - A 2nd Century manuscript of Revelation says it was written when Nero was Caesar (68 A.D.).
4 - There were still Judaizers in the church at that time (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) - impossible after 70A.D.
5 - The temple is apparently still standing in chapter 11.
6 - If the temple had already been destroyed, one would expect at least one mention of it somewhere.
7 - Revelation 2:2 shows that there were other apostles around - yet it is believed that all but John were dead by 70 A.D..
8 - Evidence for a massive persecution by Domitian (81-96 A.D.) is lacking.
9 - The only time there were only 7 churches in Asia was the early 60's.
10 -John was told he must prophesy again before kings (10:11) . . . he would have been over 90 if the late date is correct. Stories of his actions after being released from Patmos are difficult to reconcile with an aged man.

I have to tell you that I myself am not completely reconciled to this view, but it is starting to make sense to me. Irenaeous was a stumbling block, but I think I can reconcile his writings by realizing that he may not have been saying that it was written in 95 AD (see second statement above on ancient copies). Now I must read Revelation carefully, because somewhere there must be a shift to the future for as we know, the 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus has not occurred yet.

Hope this helps in our endeavor to come up with an end time doctrine based on scriptures.

Thanks for the research. A couple of paraphrased thoughts that might be correct given the fog of translation:

Irenaeous could simply have been saying that he need not identify outright the antichrist of revelation when John himself didn't feel the need to do so, and he had lived all the way to nearly the end of Domition's reign, which was almost Ireaneous' present time.

Irenaeous could also have been speaking of the quality of Jesus' teaching being that of a 50yr old rather than of a mere 30yr old; Jesus possessing the wisdom of an elder instead of a young man.

 

[Sinthesis]

OK gang, I see that you are anxious to start proving pre, mid, post, trib positions. First I will show you what we have so far as an introduction to this new theology. I. WHO GOES WHEN THE LORD COMES IN THE AIR.
Post #2 - OhFarouk - 1 Thess. 4:16,17 - Jesus will bring those who have died (Christians) and those who remain (Christians) will be caught up together in the
clouds.
Post #5 - Mike - Matt. 24 & Luke 21 - Only the faithful, those who faithfully follow Christ's commands. "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience". The Lord
is a person not a system.
Post # 19 - Edward - 2 Tim. 4:8 - Christians who "love His appearing" will go. And Post#8 - At the first gathering, some will go and some stay.

These three positions will be the official requirements for Christians to meet if they qualify for the rapture, whenever it is....Is everyone ok with this?

I kinda have a different view(s) of the rapture where all Christians by definition qualify for it. Unfortunately not all who claim to call Christ 'Lord' are known by Him. But I'll just sit back to watch where this thread goes.

 

[Chopper]

I kinda have a different view(s) of the rapture where all Christians by definition qualify for it. Unfortunately not all who claim to call Christ 'Lord' are known by Him. But I'll just sit back to watch where this thread goes.

Oh my goodness Sinthesis, you have some very important views that will be needed as we continue. I hope you will share them whenever you see an interest. I tend to believe that Revelation was written before 70AD as well. We will have to nail that down.

 

[Brother Mike]

OK Mike, you have me thinking! I could be wrong....In Ephesians 1:4 it says "even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world......." These are the "elect" right?

Just taking this one scripture (This is the only "ONE" scripture that says Before the foundation something was chosen "Elect" meaning chosen.) It appears Paul is saying that There are Hand picked people God had Pre-Chosen before the Earth was created to be "IN CHRIST or IN HIM"

Being a former Baptist, I only wanted later in life to know what was right in the Word. The way God intended so It's made me change a lot of things from doctrine to what the Word actually does say. There are some shocking things in the Word that we are taught much different at church.

The problem with this One scripture is the Phrase "IN HIM" The Holy Spirit included that.

So, what does it take to Be under and In the Lord Jesus Christ?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So all the prophets Killed at the foundation of the World gave the word people believed and their names written in the book of life "FROM" the foundation of the World.

Paul said someone has to preach and someone has to confess the Lord Jesus. The only way to get the faith to be saved is by the Power of the Word preached that caused faith to believe.

The father draws us by the Word of God, Nobody comes to the father unless he draws them first (Jesus said)
There is no special drawing outside of the Spoken word.

So choosing us in HIM......... before the foundation.................................

Did Paul mean them personally? Or did Paul mean God had planed to give it all to his son so that nothing Happens that does not Happen through Jesus?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1) Just the people God picked to be saved and only those get saved. Which counters so many scriptures about our part to believe and receive.

2) All things go through the Lord Jesus Whom God forordained before the foundation of the World (Jesus said give me the same glory I once had before the foundation of the world) And God planed for Us to be in Jesus everyone on the planet that will believe. That itself is an election for the whole planet of those that will believe. A plan in place.

It has to be one of the two Chopper. There can't just be special picked ones before the foundation of the World otherwise anyone else that make Jesus Lord can't be "IN HIM" also. It has to be God's plan to put everything under the subjection of his son before he created the Earth.

And when the smoke clears.................................... It's just going to be US and Him anyway in the End.

There would have to be more "BEFORE" the foundation of the World scriptures but Paul told us how to be saved and gave just gave that one for those "IN HIM" I just can't take that one scripture and make a good case here for some election, not when we Know Jesus had been given some authority and power before the Earth was created and the Fathers plan was to give it all to his son and for his son. Nothing was made that was not made through Jesus and for Jesus (Col)

So it seems to me we have to get the Word out and People have to believe on that word.

Blessings............

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

I kinda have a different view(s) of the rapture where all Christians by definition qualify for it. Unfortunately not all who claim to call Christ 'Lord' are known by Him. But I'll just sit back to watch where this thread goes.

Your different view is what we are considering right now. Mike was wondering about my "super saints" I believe that the term "Elect" are the ones in Ephesians 1:4, I have always believed that the elect can't loose their Salvation. Perhaps my Calvinist thinking is in the way? I'm willing to change my thinking because that's what this thread is all about....ariving at a Scriptural position on all points of end times. What is your view?

 

[Narwhalist]

Oh my goodness Sinthesis, you have some very important views that will be needed as we continue. I hope you will share them whenever you see an interest. I tend to believe that Revelation was written before 70AD as well. We will have to nail that down.

Hello Chopper. I posted on Matthew 24:40-44 and on why I don't think it has anything to do with a rapture. This is what I find to be true, that is my opinion, on Matthew 24:30-36.
The key verse is Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says "I tell you the truth, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." This is a verse of the Bible where many people read things into it. I have looked at this verse and I cannot fathom that Jesus was talking about something happening in the 20th century. He says THIS generation not that generation or the generation alive then. Why would Jesus tell his disciples THIS generation and not mean it. Talk about confusion. But that leaves verses 30-33 - when did this happen. I truly believe that when Jesus says "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. In order to see what is going on here one must realize first that Matthew 24:1:29 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, after witch Jesus will come on the clouds in judgment. Coming on the clouds is a metaphor for judgment and it is used that way throughout the Bible, OT and NT. So, in my humble opinion, Jesus is talking about judgment on Rome for the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I do not believe Jesus is talking about a rapture in some future, otherwise He would not have said that these things MUST happen before THIS generation has passed.
Tell me what you think.