IS THERE A RAPTURE? Who will go? WHO'S THE BRIDE?

[Sinthesis]

Yes, it is quite possible that all the verses being read as supporting a rapture are actually having the idea of the rapture read into them.

I think there is rapture, just that the reality of it doesn't quite correspond to today's general definition. If you think about how even the disciples, given their preconceptions about the Messiah, weren't expecting the reality of Jesus' servile work on the Cross, then it is not difficult to think that we also might be led to believe something that doesn't quite square with scripture, but sure seems glorious. Of course this is not a salvational issue.

 

[Narwhalist]

I think there is rapture, just that the reality of it doesn't quite correspond to today's general definition. If you think about how even the disciples, given their preconceptions about the Messiah, weren't expecting the reality of Jesus' servile work on the Cross, then it is not difficult to think that we also might be led to believe something that doesn't quite square with scripture, but sure seems glorious. Of course this is not a salvational issue.

The rapture is something that is not scriptural, in my opinion. It is something that is read into scripture. According to some sources the rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine. Darby is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism in the English vernacular. The beliefs he disseminated then are still being propagated (in various forms) at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and by authors and preachers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. The more I read about the rapture I am convinced that it's not biblical. If they rapture is true, why didn't anyone see it until 1830?

 

[turnorburn]

Narwhalist said:

If the rapture is true, why didn't anyone see it until 1830?

Good question, think this out carefully, what happened, who started it, what would be the reason for starting such a doctrine? Who believes it, Protestants? Catholics? Many books have been written about it, who were the writers? 50% Protestant 50% Catholic authors? 90% Protestant 10% Catholic? We all long to see Jesus, well those that are his long to see him, and everyone has heard about his second coming, so then who upset the apple cart, I'm quite sure we'd be in for a big surprise when we finally realized the source

tob

 

[Brother Mike]

The rapture is something that is not scriptural, in my opinion. It is something that is read into scripture. According to some sources the rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine. Darby is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism in the English vernacular. The beliefs he disseminated then are still being propagated (in various forms) at such places as Dallas Theological Seminary and by authors and preachers such as Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. The more I read about the rapture I am convinced that it's not biblical. If they rapture is true, why didn't anyone see it until 1830?

1) God continues to give us revelation about His Word. Danial said in the last days knowledge shall increase.

2) Anyone could have seen it, it's in the Word.

3) The More you have read about the Rapture where?? You need to examine with God in the Word and shut everyone else out.

4) You need to get a better source of information.

Joesph Mede taught on the rapture in 1586. The term used back then was premillennialist which believed in the Rapture of the Church before tribulation the saints being caught in the air.

The Shepherd of Hermas 95AD taught the church will escape the tribulation through their faith somehow.

Ephraem of Nisibis Taught the coming of the Lord Jesus to get the saints before the tribulation 306AD

Brother Dolcino 1307 taught a rapture before tribulation.

These are the works we have. The concept is not new at all.

There are about 3-4 key scriptures that depending on how you read them that make it a pre or post trib event.

If you find some of JLB's and I post you will see those key scriptures and how I read them and how he reads them. It's really not complicated at all once you know what both sides use for scriptures. It may seem like a lot at first but it will get more and more clear if you keep comparing and study.

The two very key scriptures are the resurrection event and who is the restrainer. If the Church is in the way of Satan then there is a Pre-trib event. You have to just study it out.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Those are very interesting comments Brother's and is a catalyst to forsake this man-made word "rapture" and come up with a Biblical word, like "gathered" as found in 2 Thess. 2:1, "our gathering together unto Him" The word gathering, Gk. episunagoge = leading together unto. (the word unto means motion towards.) So Mike & Narwhalist and anyone else, find other words that carry the meaning of being gathered together.

 

[Chopper]

I want to take this time to thank all you Brothers who have participated in this thread. You have stuck to the purpose of this thread and have acted like real Christians, BRAVO! I have an idea that the owner of this forum had in mind to have a forum of a Christian gentleman's think tank. There has been no belittling of each other and I'm proud of all of you. Lets make the owner and Staff glad that they established this forum and put this forum on the map, so to speak, for coming up with a new theology of end times that is strictly Scriptural and perhaps completely different from the traditions of modern thought. WE CAN DO IT!

 

[JLB]

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Gathering unto Him is a good phrase.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the word Rapture, however if it will clear up misunderstanding then I am all for using Gathering together to Him.


JLB

 

[reba]

I want to take this time to thank all you Brothers who have participated in this thread. You have stuck to the purpose of this thread and have acted like real Christians, BRAVO! I have an idea that the owner of this forum had in mind to have a forum of a Christian gentleman's think tank. There has been no belittling of each other and I'm proud of all of you. Lets make the owner and Staff glad that they established this forum and put this forum on the map, so to speak, for coming up with a new theology of end times that is strictly Scriptural and perhaps completely different from the traditions of modern thought. WE CAN DO IT!

Your guidance and patience has been remarkable Chopper thank you for being here! I might post this around the boards

 

[Brother Mike]

Those are very interesting comments Brother's and is a catalyst to forsake this man-made word "rapture" and come up with a Biblical word, like "gathered" as found in 2 Thess. 2:1, "our gathering together unto Him" The word gathering, Gk. episunagoge = leading together unto. (the word unto means motion towards.) So Mike & Narwhalist and anyone else, find other words that carry the meaning of being gathered together.

Every Word in the Bible Chopper is man made. Even God telling Adam for HIM to name the animals, though God made them.

Do you mean stay away from Words that Reliegion put in that are not in the bible in concept or no other suitable word.

Like Sovereign, Trinity, Slain in the Spirit. I agree we should avoid those because that is religion.

Rapture is just the Latin Word For Harpazo. Jerome used it in the Vulgate. It means to snatch away suddenly. Our English meaning got twisted into something else.

 

[Chopper]

Every Word in the Bible Chopper is man made. Even God telling Adam for HIM to name the animals, though God made them.

Do you mean stay away from Words that Religion put in that are not in the bible in concept or no other suitable word.

Like Sovereign, Trinity, Slain in the Spirit. I agree we should avoid those because that is religion.

Rapture is just the Latin Word For Harpazo. Jerome used it in the Vulgate. It means to snatch away suddenly. Our English meaning got twisted into something else.

Absolutely Mike, This thread is all about Scripture and not about man made words, or religious terms, or traditional denominational terms, STRICTLY SCRIPTURE!

 

[Brother Mike]

Absolutely Mike, This thread is all about Scripture and not about man made words, or religious terms, or traditional denominational terms, STRICTLY SCRIPTURE!

Now I see the Chopper I thought I knew. Someone that will examine all the scripture and keep the Religious made up stuff out. It's why I have problems with the Words like Hermeneutics. God tells us how to Study his word and tells us we need the Holy Spirit to understand it.

It's funny but at the same time sad that people who don't even speak in Tongues tell us we need Hermeneutics. God said you need filled with the Spirit of God...... Hello, anybody home?

I did learn some scriptures, but a year of being a believe changed when I finally received the power of the Holy Spirit. You look at the Word from a faith perspective and not an Hermeneutic perspective.

I am just rambling...... getting ready for church.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

Your guidance and patience has been remarkable Chopper thank you for being here! I might post this around the boards

I'm glad you approve Reba, please use my post in anyway that you want. Actually, what little you and others on staff have communicated to me has really inspired me to see things from your perspective. I am completely committed to this forum and if I can add anything at all to the success of this forum I'm ready to do that. Your words to me have been treasured in my heart and I'm so grateful that you have discovered some of Jesus Christ in me. Gal. 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me......." is my assignment for my life. Thank you and the staff for allowing me to be a member. It must be tough to allow membership to people that you don't know, you know? wolves in sheep clothing? Anyway may God richly bless you and the other staff members with peace, joy, and prosperity.

 

[Chopper]

Your guidance and patience has been remarkable Chopper thank you for being here! I might post this around the boards

I'm glad you approve Reba, please use my post in anyway that you want. Actually, what little you and others on staff have communicated to me has really inspired me to see things from your perspective. I am completely committed to this forum and if I can add anything at all to the success of this forum I'm ready to do that. Your words to me have been treasured in my heart and I'm so grateful that you have discovered some of Jesus Christ in me. Gal. 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me......." is my assignment for my life. Thank you and the staff for allowing me to be a member. It must be tough to allow membership to people that you don't know, you know? wolves in sheep clothing? Anyway may God richly bless you and the other staff members with peace, joy, and prosperity.

 

[Chopper]

Now I see the Chopper I thought I knew. Someone that will examine all the scripture and keep the Religious made up stuff out. It's why I have problems with the Words like Hermeneutics. God tells us how to Study his word and tells us we need the Holy Spirit to understand it.

It's funny but at the same time sad that people who don't even speak in Tongues tell us we need Hermeneutics. God said you need filled with the Spirit of God...... Hello, anybody home?

I did learn some scriptures, but a year of being a believe changed when I finally received the power of the Holy Spirit. You look at the Word from a faith perspective and not an Hermeneutic perspective.

I am just rambling...... getting ready for church.

Mike.

That's what I'm talking about!!

 

[Chopper]

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 Thessalonians 2:1

Gathering unto Him is a good phrase.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the word Rapture, however if it will clear up misunderstanding then I am all for using Gathering together to Him.


JLB

I agree JLB, thank you for posting that. I agree with the word "gathering" It definitely is Scriptural. Unless there are objections we will officially use this word.

 

[Eugene]

Would you please expand on your first paragraph? "those not qualified.............. I'm not sure of what you are seeing.

Dear Brother Chopper, there are many qualifications appointed believers, and their reward is according to enduring with Christ in their walk. E.g., Rev 2:10 “. . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life, and Rev 3:10-11, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (patiently kept my word), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world (you won’t go through the tribulation), to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”

Rom 8:17 “And if children (all believers are children of God), then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together. This is certainly indicative of the song the twenty-four elders, and the four living ones sing in Rev 5:10, “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Another verse is 2 Tim 2:12, “If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him:”

Again, the judgment of the church is described in Rev Chapters Two & Three. According to our walk reward is given, or judgment charged. Only two of the seven parts of the church is commended, and the remaining five are told to repent. Which part of the total church are we going to be in?

Dear brother, it's a bit hard to discuss the rapture without entering into our different concepts of its occurrence, and I don't get too excited unless our old man nature enters into condemnation of others because we don't believe the same. I personally think you have kept the thread pretty much on track while leaving consideration of many ideas to be expounded concerning our being caught up unto God. Sorry I was late getting this reply; I've been getting errors when attempting to get into the site today.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: are we raptured?

 

[Chopper]

OK Brothers and Sisters, Before I post where we are at this point and what has been established as Scriptural. We need to determine which translation will be the official one for our theology on end times.

I am thinking that the KJV would be the best, simply because it seems like that is the translation most of us have memorized in the past and which is easier to use in looking up words in a concordance. Also I think the KJV has the approval of most people. Now, I could be way off in my thinking so how about some of you? What do you think our official translation should be?

 

[JLB]

It would be good for us to define the Resurrection and Rapture.

As many have tried to say their are many Raptures and Resurrections.

Citing Enoch and Elijah.

The resurrection is where we are resurrected from the dead and receive an immortal body that will never die, like Christ's!

This did not happen when the saints in the heart of the earth were raised and taken with Christ to heaven.

The Resurrection/Rapture happens once and for all, when Christ Comes at the end of the age to gather His people.

Once for ALL of those who are His.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. [Those who are Christ's encompasses all]

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

It is important to note that the end is not 7 years before the end.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

Dear Brother Chopper, there are many qualifications appointed believers, and their reward is according to enduring with Christ in their walk. E.g., Rev 2:10 “. . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life, and Rev 3:10-11, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (patiently kept my word), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world (you won’t go through the tribulation), to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”

Rom 8:17 “And if children (all believers are children of God), then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together. This is certainly indicative of the song the twenty-four elders, and the four living ones sing in Rev 5:10, “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” Another verse is 2 Tim 2:12, “If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him:”

Again, the judgment of the church is described in Rev Chapters Two & Three. According to our walk reward is given, or judgment charged. Only two of the seven parts of the church is commended, and the remaining five are told to repent. Which part of the total church are we going to be in?

Dear brother, it's a bit hard to discuss the rapture without entering into our different concepts of its occurrence, and I don't get too excited unless our old man nature enters into condemnation of others because we don't believe the same. I personally think you have kept the thread pretty much on track while leaving consideration of many ideas to be expounded concerning our being caught up unto God. Sorry I was late getting this reply; I've been getting errors when attempting to get into the site today.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: are we raptured?

Thank you my good Brother Eugene, That explains your post very well and I agree. My next post, after we pick our official translation of the Bible, will be on the Scriptural position of faithful believers at the end of the church age and whether we go through some or all of the tribulation or are "gathered together with Him" before the trib.

 

[Chopper]

It would be good for us to define the Resurrection and Rapture.

As many have tried to say their are many Raptures and Resurrections.

Citing Enoch and Elijah.

The resurrection is where we are resurrected from the dead and receive an immortal body that will never die, like Christ's!

This did not happen when the saints in the heart of the earth were raised and taken with Christ to heaven.

The Resurrection/Rapture happens once and for all, when Christ Comes at the end of the age to gather His people.

Once for ALL of those who are His.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. [Those who are Christ's encompasses all]

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24

It is important to note that the end is not 7 years before the end.

JLB

Thank you my friend, Yes, it's very important and I agree. First, lets decide what our official translation of the Bible will be for our new theology on end times. I prefer the KJV.