Is this really the 'End Times'?

[old_tractor]

This is not a "prophesy" thread. I'm not addressing that issue here (which is why it isn't in the other area). What I want to discuss is attitudes among us Christians, so bear with me.

My mother has a book on her bookshelf entitled "The 1980's: Countdown To Armegeddon"by Hal Lindsey. Obviously, the 80's were not the "countdown to armegeddon". If one looks at topics from Bible prophesy from 40 years ago, they are essentially the same as now - only the names change occasionally.

Do we as Christians see what we want to see in this area? I think so. I think that whenever Christians face hardship, disaster, difficult times or loss of freedom, we have the tendency to see evidence of the "end times". It's as if we're hoping it is the end times so we won't have to deal with the problems at hand and Jesus will take care of everything so we won't have to.

For anyone who reads history, this is a common thread. At many points in time, Christian leaders and others have pondered deeply on the meaning of prophecies in the Bible and identified the end times with their own time. Indeed, the apostles all felt that Jesus would return in their own lifetimes. Obviously, the day and hour are reserved for the Father, God, only to know, yet Christians continually try (usually during times of famine, plague, defeat in war, etc.) to shoe-horn their own circumstances into God's prophecies.

I admit that I'm sick of Christians finding the antichrist in each and every tin-pot dictator that pops up, whether it is Saddam Hussein or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. In reality, these people are almost universally no threat to the world in any form (with or without nuclear weapons). Sometimes, I am embarrassed by how zealously Christians will label almost anyone who looks sideways at Israel (even justifiably) as the antichrist.

Can't we just leave that to God and try to deal with the times in which we live?

 

[jasoncran]

moving to the end times forum, as that is where this is best discussed.

 

[old_tractor]

Sorry 'bout that. I was torn about where to post this.

 

[veteran]

Do we as Christians see what we want to see in this area? I think so. I think that whenever Christians face hardship, disaster, difficult times or loss of freedom, we have the tendency to see evidence of the "end times". It's as if we're hoping it is the end times so we won't have to deal with the problems at hand and Jesus will take care of everything so we won't have to.

For anyone who reads history, this is a common thread. At many points in time, Christian leaders and others have pondered deeply on the meaning of prophecies in the Bible and identified the end times with their own time. Indeed, the apostles all felt that Jesus would return in their own lifetimes. Obviously, the day and hour are reserved for the Father, God, only to know, yet Christians continually try (usually during times of famine, plague, defeat in war, etc.) to shoe-horn their own circumstances into God's prophecies. ....

Can't we just leave that to God and try to deal with the times in which we live?

I suspect you may believe in a pre-tribulational rapture? Is that what you were taught? Because that is the endtime premise Hal Lindsay's books use. And it sells a lot of books, made him a lot of money.

Our Lord Jesus didn't give us the signs of the end to be watching for no reason. He did that so we would stay on guard, watching, so as to not be deceived by what is going to happen just prior to His return. God said in Isaiah 42:9 that new things He declares, before they spring forth He tells us of them.

I tried to have a conversation about endtime events this past week with one on the pre-trib rapture doctrine. She went into a literal rage about not wanting to hear about it, but just kept saying how we don't have be concerned with what's going to happen in the last days, that we'll all just be whisked away before it happens. Who is that a sign of her listening to? Definitely not our Lord in His Word.

Only in the 20th and 21st centuries have a group of internationalists created a world body designed to bring all nations under its sole authority. It's called the United Nations. Along with that we've been hearing of their globalist plan for a "one world government". And that's Biblical prophecy, one of the signs of the end (Rev.13:1-2). I've known about the plans for "one world government" since the late 1970's, forty years ago. And info about it can be found going much further back than my lifetime. What does that reveal?

It reveals that all of what God's prophets were given to warn us about will come to pass, as written. It's simply that it will happen according to The LORD's timeline, and not man's sense of time which is always short.

Our Lord Jesus did point to a specific sign that is linked with the start of His seven signs of the end just prior to His return. It involved Israel becoming a nation state again in the holy land.

 

[jasoncran]

hmm, vet, this pre-tribber watches. all the time.

i know of and loathe the u.n.
hate it with a passion.

i believe in the return of isreal as a nation.
i believe in the rise of the ac.

 

[old_tractor]

Do we as Christians see what we want to see in this area? I think so. I think that whenever Christians face hardship, disaster, difficult times or loss of freedom, we have the tendency to see evidence of the "end times". It's as if we're hoping it is the end times so we won't have to deal with the problems at hand and Jesus will take care of everything so we won't have to.

For anyone who reads history, this is a common thread. At many points in time, Christian leaders and others have pondered deeply on the meaning of prophecies in the Bible and identified the end times with their own time. Indeed, the apostles all felt that Jesus would return in their own lifetimes. Obviously, the day and hour are reserved for the Father, God, only to know, yet Christians continually try (usually during times of famine, plague, defeat in war, etc.) to shoe-horn their own circumstances into God's prophecies. ....

Can't we just leave that to God and try to deal with the times in which we live?

I suspect you may believe in a pre-tribulational rapture? Is that what you were taught? Because that is the endtime premise Hal Lindsay's books use. And it sells a lot of books, made him a lot of money.

Our Lord Jesus didn't give us the signs of the end to be watching for no reason. He did that so we would stay on guard, watching, so as to not be deceived by what is going to happen just prior to His return. God said in Isaiah 42:9 that new things He declares, before they spring forth He tells us of them.

I tried to have a conversation about endtime events this past week with one on the pre-trib rapture doctrine. She went into a literal rage about not wanting to hear about it, but just kept saying how we don't have be concerned with what's going to happen in the last days, that we'll all just be whisked away before it happens. Who is that a sign of her listening to? Definitely not our Lord in His Word.

Only in the 20th and 21st centuries have a group of internationalists created a world body designed to bring all nations under its sole authority. It's called the United Nations. Along with that we've been hearing of their globalist plan for a "one world government". And that's Biblical prophecy, one of the signs of the end (Rev.13:1-2). I've known about the plans for "one world government" since the late 1970's, forty years ago. And info about it can be found going much further back than my lifetime. What does that reveal?

It reveals that all of what God's prophets were given to warn us about will come to pass, as written. It's simply that it will happen according to The LORD's timeline, and not man's sense of time which is always short.

Our Lord Jesus did point to a specific sign that is linked with the start of His seven signs of the end just prior to His return. It involved Israel becoming a nation state again in the holy land.

Quite frankly, I'm not a pre-, mid-, or post-tribber. It is enough for me to know that Christ will return, He will rule, and the Kingdom Of God will blossom and flower on a new earth forever.

I am tired of people finding a new candidate for the antichrist each and every week - Jack Van Impe seems to do it even more frequently. I am annoyed at those who apparently think themselves wiser than others and make pronouncements which are proven wrong time and time again and yet don't have the common decency to just shut up after they've been proven wrong.

I am personally embarrassed by people who figuratively or literally lead others up onto a mountain top only to have to lead them down again after their predictions are shown to be bunk.

One world government? Oh, for Pete's sake, that's been the dream of countless men throughout history. The existence of Israel. So what? It is a tiny and insignificant state which has no bearing on anything. It's just a state like any other.

The end times is a mystery about which God does not give us the details and, in my opinion, is presumtuous for men to try to out-think God himself - perhaps even arrogantly sinful. We are given all we need to know in that God gives us assurance that HE will make all thngs right and His justice will prevail.

 

[ProphetMark]

Luke (chapter 21 I think) gives about as good a list of signs of the end times in chronological order as anywhere else in the bible, and we seem to be very early in that list of events. No, I don't think it's likely that we're in the end times.

 

[veteran]

hmm, vet, this pre-tribber watches. all the time.

i know of and loathe the u.n.
hate it with a passion.

i believe in the return of isreal as a nation.
i believe in the rise of the ac.

Then there's hope for you brother. Most of those on the pre-trib I personally know act superstitious about endtime conversation, as if studying and talking about it shows a lack of faith that Christ will rapture them out before the trib.

 

[jasoncran]

that's just stupid, if christ didnt feel the need to tell us and for us to know why even have john see the visions of the end times in revalation, and the other prophets as well.

 

[veteran]

that's just stupid, if christ didnt feel the need to tell us and for us to know why even have john see the visions of the end times in revalation, and the other prophets as well.

I agree, but apparently there's so many preachers on that doctrine relying on private prophecy books on the order of Hal Linday's 'Late Great Planet Earth', that many in their congregations are afraid to even hear about what's going to happen in the last days.

It's so obvious why our Lord Jesus gave us the signs to be watching in the end; it's so we would not be deceived, for that was His very first warning when giving the seven signs of the end (Mark 13). Now why would He warn us of the endtime events if we're not going to be here for the tribulation? Especially since a of those signs He gave take place specifically during the tribulation timing.

 

[Mysteryman]

that's just stupid, if christ didnt feel the need to tell us and for us to know why even have john see the visions of the end times in revalation, and the other prophets as well.

I agree, but apparently there's so many preachers on that doctrine relying on private prophecy books on the order of Hal Linday's 'Late Great Planet Earth', that many in their congregations are afraid to even hear about what's going to happen in the last days.

It's so obvious why our Lord Jesus gave us the signs to be watching in the end; it's so we would not be deceived, for that was His very first warning when giving the seven signs of the end (Mark 13). Now why would He warn us of the endtime events if we're not going to be here for the tribulation? Especially since a of those signs He gave take place specifically during the tribulation timing.

Hi V.

I believe that the church will be gathered up before the tribulation of God !

This belief is based upon the Hope. Why some may not vision the Hope as I see it, is because God has not put this vision in your heart.

Maybe I should say my good-bye's now as tomorrow may be too late --

 

[jasoncran]

that doesn't require us to ignorant of the other events, my pastor and others as well teach and preach the pre-trib rapture as well, but they teach what WILL happen in the tribulation and the rest of the book or revalation and revalent end time prophecies.

in any event, whether i'm dead when He comes, or alive and gathered up, pre-trib, mid, or post-trib. doenst really matter He is in control.

 

[veteran]

It does matter, very much, that we prepare ourselves to go through the tribulation, and not fear death of our flesh bodies. One thing definitely should not be in our hearts and minds when studying the endtime events our Lord gave, and that one thing is 'fear'. We are not to fear the tribulation, nor the antichrist, nor any of his servants.

There's a lot of doctrines about the endtimes which are designed to create fear in the minds of Christ's servants. Our Lord Jesus gave us the signs of the end so we would not have fear.

If I have any fear, it's certainly not about going through the tribulation. It would be about being afraid that I might let our Lord Jesus down in not making a stand for Him, and by not giving a witness for Him against the enemy like He said we are to do. At the same time, I know He will prepare me for that witness if that's what I'm called for.

It's truly difficult to try and reverse the fear propaganda that doctrines like the Pre-Trib "secret rapture" has created over the years with those in it. When those preachers have spent whole lifetimes teaching ideas of doom and gloom, nuclear holocaust, meteorite destruction, world war three, etc., it's like watching Mad Max over and over every Sunday in a lot of those Churches. After all that, it's difficult for those to begin to fathom that the tribulation time is going to be a time of world peace on the earth, the main battle being about deception in mistaking the false messiah in place of our Lord Jesus.

Our Lord Jesus showed the tribulation will be such a poweful time of deception, that it might even deceive His elect, if it were possible (Matt.24). He showed there's a false messiah coming first, working great signs and wonders. And that's the type of tribulation it's going to be, the strongest trying of one's soul towards deception that there has never been a time like it on earth before, and never will be again.

Apostle Paul showed it's going to be a time of "Peace and safety", for that's what the deceived will be declaring (1 Thess.5). He even used the expression of those being drunken in the night with that time, pointing to being drunken in deception. The devil can't defeat us by killing our flesh. He wants our souls. That's what the tribulation is going to be about. The coming antichrist can't trick people if he goes around killing everybody. That's why our Lord warned us that it will be by the miracles he works on earth that will do the deceiving.

Think about it. If young people could go nuts over Elvis and the Beatles, just think of what they'll do when false messiah shows up, promising them anything they want, healing all their woes, doing miracles while at the same time claiming to be Christ. It's about a supernatural working on the earth, not a fake magic act. That's why it's written in Daniel 11 that false one is going to use 'peace' to destroy many with, and craft will prosper in his hand.

Rev.13 with "who is able to make war with him?", what do you think that's about? It's about a beast system in total control over all nations on the earth, subduing every nation's military, and ending all wars. That's what world bodies like the U.N. was started for, to end wars on the earth. Our Lord pointed to that sign in Mark 13:7 about hearing of wars and rumours of wars, to not be troubled, for the end is not yet. The opposite of wars is a time of peace. That's what it's going to be like in the times just prior to Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

Not being able to buy and sell without the mark of the beast is another sign that the tribulation time is going to be a time of complete total control over all nations on earth. In a totalitarian world, who is left to make war with it? None, at least not physical war with physical weapons. We often talk about the spiritual war between God's people and Satan, but the pre-trib preachers don't usually compare that with the tribulation time.

We have to be prepared to understand how even a close loved one that is deceived by false messiah will have us delivered up for refusing to bow to him. Our Lord Jesus did say that if we did not love Him more than even our own family members, then we are not worthy of Him (Matt.10:37). He said our enemies could even be those of our own household (Matt.10:35-36). That Matthew 10 chapter is especially about the faithful of Christ's servants being delivered up to councils and synagogues (churches), to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit. It's one of the seven signs of the end our Lord gave in Mark 13. That's actually not a whole lot different than what our Lord Himself and His Apostles and disciples went through. That's the kind of treatment from this world we should be prepared for. Some of us are going to suffer that during the tribulation. Yet none of us will escape that by being raptured out.

What about those who are deceived by false messiah/antichrist? How will it be for them during the tribulation? Those are the ones that will be declaring world peace ("Peace and safety"). They will think false messiah is our Lord Jesus come to gather them. Each people will think that false one will be God having returned to this earth, and that by the great miracle working that false one is to do on earth.

This is why it is very... important that we get the timing correct about the endtime events, and time of our Lord Jesus' coming to gather us. That's also why our Lord gave three woe periods along with the last three trumpets in Revelation. We are to note the order of events given within those woe periods especially, because they're about the prime deception time during the tribulation.

 

[Vic C.]

Quite frankly, I'm not a pre-, mid-, or post-tribber. It is enough for me to know that Christ will return, He will rule, and the Kingdom Of God will blossom and flower on a new earth forever.

I am tired of people finding a new candidate for the antichrist each and every week - Jack Van Impe seems to do it even more frequently. I am annoyed at those who apparently think themselves wiser than others and make pronouncements which are proven wrong time and time again and yet don't have the common decency to just shut up after they've been proven wrong.

I am personally embarrassed by people who figuratively or literally lead others up onto a mountain top only to have to lead them down again after their predictions are shown to be bunk.

One world government? Oh, for Pete's sake, that's been the dream of countless men throughout history. The existence of Israel. So what? It is a tiny and insignificant state which has no bearing on anything. It's just a state like any other.

The end times is a mystery about which God does not give us the details and, in my opinion, is presumtuous for men to try to out-think God himself - perhaps even arrogantly sinful. We are given all we need to know in that God gives us assurance that HE will make all thngs right and His justice will prevail.

Tractor, that post and your opening post are two of the best posts I've read in a while.

Hi V.

I believe that the church will be gathered up before the tribulation of God !

This belief is based upon the Hope. Why some may not vision the Hope as I see it, is because God has not put this vision in your heart.

Maybe I should say my good-bye's now as tomorrow may be too late --

Oy! Tribulation is of this world and from the 'god' of this world. The Lord allows tribulation in our lives to achieve HIS will. I'll leave it to Synth to quote my siggy again, LOL.

It's the Wrath of God in which we are spared. We have God's faithful promise.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If God meant tribulation, it would have been written as such.

Wrath:
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Acts 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it, at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things....

... Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.


Tribulation:
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[old_tractor]

that's just stupid, if christ didnt feel the need to tell us and for us to know why even have john see the visions of the end times in revalation, and the other prophets as well.

As I see it, both Jesus's own words and the revelation given to John are assurances that no matter what persecutions await us for our faith, history has an end and we are on the victorious side. He is reassuring us that we are saved and will not know the second death. Instead, we will be with Him in paradise.

Are we going to know when it will happen? Absolutely not! Jesus tells us we will not know when He states quite clearly in Luke 17:34-35: "I tell you, on that night two people will be on one bed; one will be taken the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken the other left." We will not be sitting on a hilltop somewhere because we all (or a few) can divine the mysteries so we know He's coming and we're ready for his arrival. Instead, like the people Jesus describes, we will be going about our daily business - eating, sleeping, working - and will be taken by surprise.

 

[jasoncran]

i have a question. do you feel that some christian are so pro-isreal that they dont see the faults of the govt of isreal?

and ahmed is a nut job. no doubt. but not THE anti-christ. not in a long shot.

 

[old_tractor]

Only in the 20th and 21st centuries have a group of internationalists created a world body designed to bring all nations under its sole authority. It's called the United Nations. Along with that we've been hearing of their globalist plan for a "one world government". And that's Biblical prophecy, one of the signs of the end (Rev.13:1-2). I've known about the plans for "one world government" since the late 1970's, forty years ago. And info about it can be found going much further back than my lifetime. What does that reveal?

What does that reveal? It reveals that you are willing to ignore all history that conflicts with your own desires, friend.

You ignore the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, the Mongols, etc. who had similar designs of endless conquest of the world (as the knew it). This has happened countless times in history and each of them were certainly more effective than the UN. The fact of the matter is that the UN is simply an annoying bogeyman. It has no power unless its members do the heavy lifting when they perceive it is in their own interests to do so.

Again, I do not doubt your sincerety. I do, however, think you are shoehorning and cherry-picking both prophecy and history because you want something to be whether it is or not in reality.

 

[old_tractor]

[quote="old_tractor":39d2blp0]Quite frankly, I'm not a pre-, mid-, or post-tribber. It is enough for me to know that Christ will return, He will rule, and the Kingdom Of God will blossom and flower on a new earth forever.

I am tired of people finding a new candidate for the antichrist each and every week - Jack Van Impe seems to do it even more frequently. I am annoyed at those who apparently think themselves wiser than others and make pronouncements which are proven wrong time and time again and yet don't have the common decency to just shut up after they've been proven wrong.

I am personally embarrassed by people who figuratively or literally lead others up onto a mountain top only to have to lead them down again after their predictions are shown to be bunk.

One world government? Oh, for Pete's sake, that's been the dream of countless men throughout history. The existence of Israel. So what? It is a tiny and insignificant state which has no bearing on anything. It's just a state like any other.

The end times is a mystery about which God does not give us the details and, in my opinion, is presumtuous for men to try to out-think God himself - perhaps even arrogantly sinful. We are given all we need to know in that God gives us assurance that HE will make all thngs right and His justice will prevail.

Tractor, that post and your opening post are two of the best posts I've read in a while.

Hi V.

I believe that the church will be gathered up before the tribulation of God !

This belief is based upon the Hope. Why some may not vision the Hope as I see it, is because God has not put this vision in your heart.

Maybe I should say my good-bye's now as tomorrow may be too late --

Oy! Tribulation is of this world and from the 'god' of this world. The Lord allows tribulation in our lives to achieve HIS will. I'll leave it to Synth to quote my siggy again, LOL.

It's the Wrath of God in which we are spared. We have God's faithful promise.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

If God meant tribulation, it would have been written as such.

Wrath:
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Acts 5:2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it, at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things....

... Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.


Tribulation:
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.[/quote:39d2blp0]

I'm new here and I thank you for your kind comment.

 

[jasoncran]

the u.n. has more power then you think as the nation surrender some authority to it.

if not why do we need to ask the u.n for the invasion of iraq? both times, and we went under the u.n. banner into korea and the balkans

in fact , a u.s soldier refused to wear the blue beret over the idea that he signed up to serve the u.s army not the u.n.

he lost his appeal and was discharged from service, his original punishment was an article 15, not a summary court martial(or the appropriate court martail)

 

[old_tractor]

i have a question. do you feel that some christian are so pro-isreal that they dont see the faults of the govt of isreal?

and ahmed is a nut job. no doubt. but not THE anti-christ. not in a long shot.

Honestly, I think there are Christians who act as if God will put a gold star by their name if they cheer whenever an IDF soldier shoots a 12 year old palestinian kid with a rock. Israel has clearlybeen in the wrong many times and Christians will not only wholeheartedly support them, but will believe anything (even the most absurd lies) a prominent jew or the Israeli govt says.

I am equally sick of hearing (as an American) that Israel is an "ally". There was a time that, under the Cold War rubric, we deemed it necessary to align ourselves with Israel against what was then seen as Soviet client states in the Middle East. That is no longer a concern. They do nothing for us (nothing good at least) while we give them billions of $ each and every year, allow to steal our military secrets, give them our veto-power in the UN, etc.