Islam – how well do you know the facts?

[Stormcrow]

Allah was a demon and Mohammed was a murderer and a pedophile.

They're both roasting in the lake of fire.

 

[anonymous13]

ChristianNationalist
Yes you can read the half verse as it is translated in English, and mislead yourself. If you do the same with the bible, you will be in much trouble!! Because the Bible will be much more violent than the Quran for you. I told you the background about this specific verse, It's up to you. At lest next time, try to read the whole chapter, and not half a verse to have a good understanding. It's not 4 months to begin slaughtering people! it is 4 months for them to leave, if the 4 months passes, then they will have to battle, and those who don't battle won't be killed, they will be given a choice. Here, at the choice part is the Forgiving and Merciful part.
The thing that you have to understand is that battle in Islam happen only for specific reasons

"Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not."

It is either for defensive purposes, or at other times, the prophet will send a message to the leader of region asking him to let one or few of the Muslims to go into their land and to preach about Islam. If they refused, then they will have to battle the Muslims. It's nothing like just going and killing and just expanding land. These are the teachings of God.

Muhammad was the anti-Christ.

There is no my Allah, and your Allah. God is one. As a christian, you should be respectful to God no matter what, just because I follow another faith, that does not change the fact that God Almighty is one! you have to show more respect to your God if you truly love him.

The Qur'an 2:136 - Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

Moreover, you say that Prophet Muhammad was the anti-Christ. It's funny, because Islam is the only religion in the world other than Christianity that says that Jesus is the Messiah! Even Judaism believes that the Messiah will come and do specific things, and Jesus failed to do any of them, that's why they do not believe in him. Does this seem to you that Islam is Anti-Christ!!

reba
So now that you know that Allah, is the Arabic name of God, and that even Arabic Christians use it in their bible. God can only be one, and I'm up for a discussion. You are very welcome to show me the lies in the Qur'an and the truths in the bible. I will be very happy to discuss this with you.

Stormcrow
I hope that you take your comments to a higher level next time, because what you said is very void, without logic, and lacks the evidence and grounds! You are only saying bad things about your God, which I find very disrespectful. Go and ask any of the Arab Christians about the name of God and they will tell you Allah. When, you become more respectful to your God, and once you can support what you say, I will be happy to discuss any topic with you.

 

[Mike]

A13, obviously, there is only one God. I take the position that Muslims do not know Him; that they've bought into a lie. I understand that my words, the words of men, will do little convincing, but they need to be said. I do believe your prophet was "an" antichrist, because he preached a different gospel than that of Christ.

Calling Jesus "Messiah" sounds to some like we share the same esteem for Him, but we both know we have very different beliefs. Anything other than He being Fully God who Redeems men is a false gospel. You've clearly heard the true Gospel, and if you don't humble yourself to it, you will be held accountable for rejecting it. Being immersed in a culture that affirms your stance will not lessen your accountability to the Truth.

I believe the Being you call Allah is the one True God, but I'm afraid you don't know Him. There are countless former-Muslims who have been brought to faith, despite the obstacles. I pray one day you will be counted among them.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Allah is not our God. Allah is a demonic pretender, the Prince of Lies.

 

[anonymous13]

Mike
Exactly! That is what I was trying to communicate to others at previous posts. We both agree on the almighty God, the creator of earth and heavens. Some, here seem sensitive to the name Allah. Even though it's the name of God in Arabic, and all Arab Christians and Jewish uses it. Also, the word God was not used during the days of Jesus. In Hebrew, God sometimes is refereed to as Elohim. Allah and Elohim are very similar in the meaning and composition.
Now to the second part of your argument where you said

I take the position that Muslims do not know Him; that they've bought into a lie.

This as a shared opinion. However, could you please explain to me what are the lies that Muslims were bought into. Or if you wish what are the truths of the true Gospel!

I do believe your prophet was "an" antichrist, because he preached a different gospel than that of Christ.

Or that prophet Muhammad preached the same gospel as Jesus. Given the fact that the teachings of Islam and Judaism are very similar.

Calling Jesus "Messiah" sounds to some like we share the same esteem for Him, but we both know we have very different beliefs. Anything other than He being Fully God who Redeems men is a false gospel. You've clearly heard the true Gospel, and if you don't humble yourself to it, you will be held accountable for rejecting it. Being immersed in a culture that affirms your stance will not lessen your accountability to the Truth.

Nor shall I seek lessen accountability. Anyway, in Judaism, the Messiah had specific characteristics. These characteristics did not fit Jesus, that's why the rejected him as the Messiah. Islam still says Isa is the Messiah but not God. Do you have any explanation why the Jewish rejected Jesus as the true Messiah, and why most of the characteristics of the Messiah in Judaism did not fit Jesus? Moreover, if you wish we can discuss if the true Gospel states that Jesus is God or a prophet.

I believe the Being you call Allah is the one True God, but I'm afraid you don't know Him. There are countless former-Muslims who have been brought to faith, despite the obstacles. I pray one day you will be counted among them.

I ask the almighty God to guide us all to his true path.

ChristianNationalist
Ouch!! you just falsified the faith of all your fellow Arab Christians brothers and sisters.

 

[modernnihilst]

I have a question regarding this thread. Atheists and Nihilists are viewed with a modicum of respect as long as it is shown back and not offensive, HOWEVER virtually all of the threads regarding Islam results in a fierce argument regarding who's version of G-d's words is correct. Why? This both fascinates and confuses me at the same time. It is fascinating to me because I see that both sides truly believe they are right. It confuses me because, from the view of an outsider, the differences dont apear to be as vast as some people make it sound.

 

[Mike]

It confuses me because, from the view of an outsider, the differences dont apear to be as vast as some people make it sound.

It's actually very common that when a person of another faith enters any environment where Christianity is prevalent, they will attempt to minimize the differences and focus on the similarities. I believe you'll find this approach not so common when they are among like-minded people. I'll let you consider why this might be so.

Muslims are monotheistic and share some of the lineage of Christianity, but they separate themselves distinctly from us in ways that mean life and death.

This as a shared opinion. However, could you please explain to me what are the lies that Muslims were bought into. Or if you wish what are the truths of the true Gospel!

Since you're making the claims on a Christian forum, I'll answer your questions by giving you the opportunity to explain yourself below.

Or that prophet Muhammad preached the same gospel as Jesus. Given the fact that the teachings of Islam and Judaism are very similar.

The same Gospel?

Did Muhammad confess that Jesus was fully God?
Did Muhammad confess that Jesus is the Son of God?
Did Muhammad confess that Jesus had to die to atone for the sins of mankind?
Did Muhammad confess that there is nothing we can do, no pillars we can adhere to, in order to have eternal life?

Nor shall I seek lessen accountability. Anyway, in Judaism, the Messiah had specific characteristics. These characteristics did not fit Jesus, that's why the rejected him as the Messiah. Islam still says Isa is the Messiah but not God. Do you have any explanation why the Jewish rejected Jesus as the true Messiah, and why most of the characteristics of the Messiah in Judaism did not fit Jesus? Moreover, if you wish we can discuss if the true Gospel states that Jesus is God or a prophet.

I won't allow this to turn into a platform for you to argue against Christianity. This is why our ToS forbids attempts to discredit it. You are branching off onto your own soapbox. The authenticity of biblical scripture confirming that Jesus is God is overwhelming. There were the testimonies, the witnesses to the events, the lack of opposing testimonies, the behavior of His apostles after His Resurrection. Muhammad has... what Muhammad claimed.

Muhammad preached something else than:

Hebrews 1
"8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.â€
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.â€

John 19:7, "7 The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.â€

Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. True!
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge d my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes[c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Muhammad fabricated a completely different gospel.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

I have a question regarding this thread. Atheists and Nihilists are viewed with a modicum of respect as long as it is shown back and not offensive, HOWEVER virtually all of the threads regarding Islam results in a fierce argument regarding who's version of G-d's words is correct. Why? This both fascinates and confuses me at the same time. It is fascinating to me because I see that both sides truly believe they are right. It confuses me because, from the view of an outsider, the differences dont apear to be as vast as some people make it sound.

That's because Islam is a violent expansionist religion that is incapable of peacefully coexisting with other faiths. Name a single nation on this planet where the majority is muslim and non-muslims aren't treated brutally. You can't, because that nation doesn't exist.

Where Jesus taught us to peacefully spread the word muhammad taught them to spread his vile religion through fire and the sword. Killing a non-muslim is nothing to a muslim.

 

[anonymous13]

modernnihilst

HOWEVER virtually all of the threads regarding Islam results in a fierce argument regarding who's version of G-d's words is correct.

I am new to this forums, so I did not know that this usually happens. Anyway, I am not trying to say that there are two versions of God. There is only one God and one version of God. But for sure there is misunderstanding about it, to be fair it may be from any side.
As for why did topic shift to God! I don't know!! I was discussing specifics that were mentioned in the discussion earlier. Until, some started to say Allah is not God, and so on.
Since, the brought up this issue, it has to be addresses. Because Allah is the Arabic name of God. In Hebrew it's Elohim, If you see how Elohim and Allah are composed you will see that these names mean the same thing. That's why all Jewish and Christians that are Arab use the word Allah for God. It has nothing to do with Islam or another religion, but everything with God. It seems to me that when some here say Allah are not God, they are trying to falsify Islam. But, this has nothing to do with Islam, it's about Almighty God. Thus, my point is that I agree with Mike and what he said earlier, there is only one God. But, from his point of view that there is misunderstanding about it. I find nothing wrong with discussion about this topic with keeping in mind respect to others. I am not trying to falsify anyones faith, I am only trying to have an open discussion.

the differences dont apear to be as vast as some people make it sound.

Agree with you on this one.

Mike

I won't allow this to turn into a platform for you to argue against Christianity.

I was not trying to argue against Christianity or any other faith. I was just responding to those who said the Muhammad was anti-Christ, by saying no he was not because Islam is the only religion other than Christianity that accepts Jesus as the Messiah, and confirms the Gospel as the word of God. When, I asked you about Judaism and Christianity, I was not trying to argue against Christianity, I was trying to understand Christianity. This because the answer that Islam provides to this question fits both the Jewish and christian part of the story.While, I still cannot understand how the Christian Explanation goes hand in hand with the Jewish teachings. Anyway, I would like to comment on what you recently said, but I do not want to do so in a way that you tell me that I am arguing against Christianity, because this is not my goal. Thus, please let me know about my boundaries before I proceed, and I promise you in advance to adhere to them.

ChristianNationalist
This is a very weak argument, I have a lot to say about it, but I'll wait for Mike or any of the Moderators to clarify for me my boundaries, because I do not want to say something and then find people say that I am arguing against Christianity.

 

[reba]

our statement of faith

http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=15&a=7

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http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=15&a=6

 

[Free]

I was just responding to those who said the Muhammad was anti-Christ, by saying no he was not because Islam is the only religion other than Christianity that accepts Jesus as the Messiah, and confirms the Gospel as the word of God.

But that clearly is not the case. The gospel is that Jesus, as the Son of God and the God-man, died and rose again that we might receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God, and be those through whom God continues to bring about his redemptive work to all creation.

Islam denies that Jesus died and that he was in any way God or the Son of God. If Jesus didn't die and rise again, then there is no forgiveness, no eternal life, no gospel. The Jesus of the Quran is not the Jesus of the Bible. Considering that Islam did not come about for some 600 years after Jesus, it is most likely Islam's view that is in error.

 

[modernnihilst]

That's because Islam is a violent expansionist religion that is incapable of peacefully coexisting with other faiths. Name a single nation on this planet where the majority is muslim and non-muslims aren't treated brutally. You can't, because that nation doesn't exist.

Um..... ever heard of a lil place called India? Quite a bit of the ruling people are Muslim and the Hindus are left in peace for the most part.

 

[anonymous13]

Thanks reba, I've read these regulation, but it is still unclear to me what my boundaries should be. Anyway, I will post a response and moderators can feel free to edit or delete my response if I abuse your regulations. I am not seeking to be offensive toward anyone, but I seek a mutual rational thinking.

Mike
[FONT=&quot]

Since you're making the claims on a Christian forum, I'll answer your questions by giving you the opportunity to explain yourself below.

I am fine with that.

The same Gospel?

Did Muhammad confess that Jesus was fully God?
Did Muhammad confess that Jesus is the Son of God?
Did Muhammad confess that Jesus had to die to atone for the sins of mankind?
Did Muhammad confess that there is nothing we can do, no pillars we can adhere to, in order to have eternal life?

Answering your first question, yes, the same gospel.

Qur'an 3:3 - He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel

Islam confirms that the Gospel is the word of God, and what is said in the Qur'an confirms what was said in the Torah and the Gospel. Anyway, the answer for the rest of your question is No, Prophet Muhammad did not confess that Jesus was fully God, but a prophet of God, and that God has no sons, that Jesus was not put on the cross- but was lift from earth, and that he will be back. Back to our main point, is this really a different Gospel? I hope that you can help me understand what did the Gospel really said, because there are many things that confuses me.
1. I was looking for a verse where Jesus says, I am God, worship me. But I could not find any!
2. When I read the bible, it seems to me the Jesus distinct between his powers and that of the father (God), In a sense that I understood that they have different powers and different characteristics.
3. Also, I find several suggestions in the bible that Jesus did not die.
4. According to my understanding of the bible, God has other sons than Jesus.
I hope that you can explain to me those points, and I have to make it clear, I am not trying to argue against your faith, I am only suggesting that there may be a misunderstandings for the texts, either from my end or yours.

[/FONT]ChristianNationalist

That's because Islam is a violent expansionist religion that is incapable of peacefully coexisting with other faiths. Name a single nation on this planet where the majority is muslim and non-muslims aren't treated brutally. You can't, because that nation doesn't exist.

Here you are not talking about facts, you are talking about your perception. First, you have to understand that Islam as a religion and the specific actions of some countries are two different things.
The Qur'an clearly state freedom of religion in 2:256

Quran 2:256 - There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taught and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Also, I will talk about my country, and here I am not talking about Islam, but you've requested a country with the majority of Muslims where non-Muslims can practice their faith freely. In Bahrain, many religions such as Hindu, Christians, and Jewish have their temples and freely practice their faiths.

Where Jesus taught us to peacefully spread the word muhammad taught them to spread his vile religion through fire and the sword. Killing a non-muslim is nothing to a muslim.

I do not think that Christianity was spread peacefully. Anyway, I don't want to discuss this topic, because it will seem offensive to some. Anyway, what is your explanation that Islam spread through the sword! while actually the Qur'an does not mention this word while the bible says

Matthew 10 - (34) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (35) For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

Also, I am seeking to find an answer for why you claim that Islam is violent, and Christianity is peaceful. While, in the old testament you can find very violent acts that were executed by God.

Free

But that clearly is not the case. The gospel is that Jesus, as the Son of God and the God-man, died and rose again that we might receive forgiveness and be reconciled to God, and be those through whom God continues to bring about his redemptive work to all creation.

Please refer to my response to mike, and you are very welcomed to explain to me the things that are confusing me too.

Islam denies that Jesus died and that he was in any way God or the Son of God. If Jesus didn't die and rise again, then there is no forgiveness, no eternal life, no gospel. The Jesus of the Quran is not the Jesus of the Bible. Considering that Islam did not come about for some 600 years after Jesus, it is most likely Islam's view that is in error.

God is not limited by 600 years or any other time, the 600 years does not falsify what Islam said. I view it as a point of support. After 600 years, and in a land with people who are mostly polytheistic. A man comes out to preach about God, and Jesus, and when I try to apply what the Qur'an said to Jesus. Most things makes strong sense. But, since you do not believe in the Qur'an, and we both believe in the bible. I prefer to limit our discussion to what the bible says.

 

[Free]

Free

Please refer to my response to mike, and you are very welcomed to explain to me the things that are confusing me too.

Islam confirms that the Gospel is the word of God, and what is said in the Qur'an confirms what was said in the Torah and the Gospel. Anyway, the answer for the rest of your question is No, Prophet Muhammad did not confess that Jesus was fully God, but a prophet of God, and that God has no sons, that Jesus was not put on the cross- but was lift from earth, and that he will be back. Back to our main point, is this really a different Gospel? I hope that you can help me understand what did the Gospel really said, because there are many things that confuses me.
1. I was looking for a verse where Jesus says, I am God, worship me. But I could not find any!
2. When I read the bible, it seems to me the Jesus distinct between his powers and that of the father (God), In a sense that I understood that they have different powers and different characteristics.
3. Also, I find several suggestions in the bible that Jesus did not die.
4. According to my understanding of the bible, God has other sons than Jesus.
I hope that you can explain to me those points, and I have to make it clear, I am not trying to argue against your faith, I am only suggesting that there may be a misunderstandings for the texts, either from my end or yours.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. I was looking for a verse where Jesus says, I am God, worship me. But I could not find any![/FONT]

There are several where he received worship and did not rebuke those who worshiped him (all from the NKJV):

Matthew 14:31-33, 31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, "Truly You are the Son of God."

Luke 24:50-53, 50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. 51 Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

John 9:35-38, 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" 36 He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." 38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

This verse addresses points 1, 3 and 4:

John 20:26-31, 26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

[FONT=&quot]2. When I read the bible, it seems to me the Jesus distinct between his powers and that of the father (God), In a sense that I understood that they have different powers and different characteristics.[/FONT]

Jesus relied on the Father for everything. It is important to note that a difference in function does not indicate an inferiority in nature. This can get complex fairly quickly but we must understand that Jesus, as God in human flesh, "emptied himself" or somehow limited himself in taking on human flesh, but that this does not mean he isn't also truly God. Yet, he is not the Father. That distinction must remain.

[FONT=&quot]3. Also, I find several suggestions in the bible that Jesus did not die.[/FONT]

If you can find one, we can discuss it. I have not seen any but I can find many that speak of his death and resurrection (all from the NKJV):

Romans 5:6-11 , 6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Romans 6:3-10, 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Romans 14:9, 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

1 Corinthians 15:1-20, 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Not to mention the gospel accounts of his death and resurrection and the numerous other verses speaking of those things. The evidence is overwhelming: Jesus's literally physically died and rose again, apart from which there is no salvation.

[FONT=&quot]4. According to my understanding of the bible, God has other sons than Jesus.[/FONT]

The phrase "sons of God" is used for those other than Jesus, but Jesus is clearly the one and only Son of God (all from the NKJV):

John 1:18, 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 3:16-18, 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, there are many more verses that shows Jesus is the only true Son of God and that the phrase "sons of God" has a different meaning when applied to anyone else.

God is not limited by 600 years or any other time, the 600 years does not falsify what Islam said. I view it as a point of support. After 600 years, and in a land with people who are mostly polytheistic. A man comes out to preach about God, and Jesus, and when I try to apply what the Qur'an said to Jesus. Most things makes strong sense. But, since you do not believe in the Qur'an, and we both believe in the bible. I prefer to limit our discussion to what the bible says.

That's fine if we limit it to the Bible but it is clear that the Bible and the Quran are not in agreement about who Jesus is and what the gospel is, as all the above Scriptures prove.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

Um..... ever heard of a lil place called India? Quite a bit of the ruling people are Muslim and the Hindus are left in peace for the most part.

Um, India is only 13% Muslim. And um, if you actually review India's history you'll find massive violence between Muslims and non-Muslims. In fact, you ever hear of the countries of Pakistan and Bangladesh? They were part of India until violent Muslim nationalists forced separation.

India is pretty much the very worst example you could have chosen.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

[/FONT]ChristianNationalist

Here you are not talking about facts, you are talking about your perception. First, you have to understand that Islam as a religion and the specific actions of some countries are two different things.
The Qur'an clearly state freedom of religion in 2:256

No, I'm talking about facts. The facts are that Muhammad himself commanded the death of those unwilling to convert.

Also, I will talk about my country, and here I am not talking about Islam, but you've requested a country with the majority of Muslims where non-Muslims can practice their faith freely. In Bahrain, many religions such as Hindu, Christians, and Jewish have their temples and freely practice their faiths.

I've been to Bahrain. Christians churches can only operate with written permission from the government, permission which is often denied. They can't even make repairs to their churches without permission, which is also often denied.

http://www.persecution.org/2007/11/28/ten-churches-face-crisis-of-eviction-in-behrain/

I do not think that Christianity was spread peacefully. Anyway, I don't want to discuss this topic, because it will seem offensive to some. Anyway, what is your explanation that Islam spread through the sword! while actually the Qur'an does not mention this word while the bible says

Also, I am seeking to find an answer for why you claim that Islam is violent, and Christianity is peaceful. While, in the old testament you can find very violent acts that were executed by God.

Those who spread Christianity through violence did not do as Jesus Christ commanded. Those who spread Islam through violence do exactly as Muhammad commanded.

God has every right to met out justice, and never did he command conversion through violent means.

 

[anonymous13]

Free

There are several where he received worship and did not rebuke those who worshiped him (all from the NKJV):

What does the word worshiped mean, I looked into the verses that you used and in arabic the word worshiped is translated to "sajad", which means to kneel with the head is down. Do you agree with me that the word worship means that?
If you agree, then worshiping Jesus means accepting him as a God? or the least recognizing him as one?
Also, my understanding is that if Jesus did not rebuke something, that means that he accepts it! is this correct?

Jesus relied on the Father for everything. It is important to note that a difference in function does not indicate an inferiority in nature. This can get complex fairly quickly but we must understand that Jesus, as God in human flesh, "emptied himself" or somehow limited himself in taking on human flesh, but that this does not mean he isn't also truly God. Yet, he is not the Father. That distinction must remain.

The phrase "sons of God" is used for those other than Jesus, but Jesus is clearly the one and only Son of God (all from the NKJV):

If you can find one, we can discuss it. I have not seen any but I can find many that speak of his death and resurrection (all from the NKJV):

I'll get to these points later, if only you could answer my questions above. I don't want to discuss many topics at once. Thus, we all will be lost.

ChristianNationalist

No, I'm talking about facts. The facts are that Muhammad himself commanded the death of those unwilling to convert.

Great! then what I am saying is bring up your evidence. I am an easy guy, I do not need many. Just bring me one! You will never find anything in the command of God in Islam, any verse that commands the death of those unwilling to convert.
I don't think that the verse that I used earlier from the Qur'an was in complex English, anyway I am going to explain it.

Quran 2:256 - There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taught and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

It means that nobody shall force another to follow a specific faith. It's up to you to believe or not!

Qur'an 16:125 - Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

It did not say, argue with them and if they did not listen kill them!!
Now, I still ask you if these evidences does not satisfy you that Islam is nothing like what you think of. Bring an evidence, but be sure that you are able to support it!Because I like to use my brain and I am going to use it!
As I explained in a previous post to you the Qur'an directs Muslim to battle only in specific situations, an example of that would be self defense. I hope that you don't rely on copying and pasting texts. This is only going to weaken your situation. I am asking you to think, and come with an evidence that you are convinced of, and I will be more than happy to think with you, and the truth shall be obvious.

I've been to Bahrain. Christians churches can only operate with written permission from the government, permission which is often denied. They can't even make repairs to their churches without permission, which is also often denied.

http://www.persecution.org/2007/11/2...on-in-behrain/

Notice that in my previous post I mentioned that what governments do in countries with majorities of Muslims and Islam are two different things. Anyway, I think we are moving in a circle here. You asked for an example, I gave you one, and then you countered it and said oh and this is often denied!
This should leave me with a very little room, because you knew what you said is deniable but I don't want to go there. Anyway, you have to Understand that even mosques operate within regulations and laws in Bahrain. You have to adhere to these laws, as Muslims and others has to adhere to laws in other countries. This does not mean that the freedom of religion is not granted.

Those who spread Christianity through violence did not do as Jesus Christ commanded. Those who spread Islam through violence do exactly as Muhammad commanded.

God has every right to met out justice, and never did he command conversion through violent means.

That's exactly what I am trying to communicate to you. You argue that if violence was used from a christian entity then this was against the command of Jesus Christ. I am also saying that if violence was used by Islamic entity then this was against the command of God that was given to Prophet Muhammad.
At an earlier post you said

I read it as written, no more and no less.

I see that you apply this only to texts from out of your religion.
Because if you apply" I read it as written, no more and no less." to this verse

Matthew 10 - (34) “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (35) For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

Then you will be out of explanation. I am only asking you to use rational thinking. My point here do not be bias. I am not here to say I am right and you are wrong. I am saying lets think together. This will require from your end to support what you claim, and to be unbiased.

 

[ChristianNationalist]

I have provided evidence time and again which you have simply chosen to ignore. I'm done with you.

 

[anonymous13]

ChristianNationalist

I have provided evidence time and again which you have simply chosen to ignore. I'm done with you.

Now let me summarize to you what happened.
You claimed that Allah commands in the Qur'an the killing of non-Muslims. This claim was countered by me.
Then, you copied and pasted some bias translations of the Qur'an, and said here look at it! Islam calls for what I claimed!
I then told you, I cannot see where it says kill the non-Muslims, and you appointed for a specific verse.
I countered that by explaining to you that the verse that you used is not complete, and that you have to read the whole chapter to know the background about this specific half of verse that you tried to use. Also, I explained to you what the verse was meant by and everything.
Then, you still insist that Islam calls for the killing of the non-Muslims. I ask you for only one evidence to support your claim! and you say it was provided!!
Okay, see I am an easy going guy. For the purpose of this discussion with you, I would accept your hoax evidence.
Now, assuming that Islam calls for the killing of the non-Muslims [ which is not only untrue, but also against the teachings of Islam, and to kill an innocent (no matter what his religion is) is one of the biggest sins].
Now, I am a Muslim who accepted you hoax evidence. Now assumingly, that I am a Muslim who thinks that Islam is a violent religion. I then go to the bible and read

Joshua 6:21 21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

This happened with God's command, if you don't believe me go and read the whole chapter.
This will make Islam, even with your hoax evidence that was accepted for the sake of this discussion seem very peaceful.
And remember what you said earlier!

I read it as written, no more and no less.

I really did not want to go this path with you. I told you I prefer mutual discussions that are based on rational thinking. But, since you insisted on transforming false claims to facts. I had to go along with you to see where this is going to end.

 

[Stormcrow]

You are only saying bad things about your God...

That Jew-hating, Christian-murdering, soul-enslaving devil you call "Allah" is not my God.

Jesus Christ is the name to which every knee will bow, sooner or later.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11 (NASB)

...which I find very disrespectful.

Worship a God worthy of respect. Problem solved.