ISLAM IN THE WORLD

[tessiewebb]

Christian Tragedy in the Muslim World

Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations.

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/07/30/christian-tragedy-in-the-muslim-world/tob

Good point, tob, and the Muslim population is "sizeable" all over the world and quickly growing. The more there are of them, the more Christians and Jews are being persecuted, tortured, killed, beheaded, mutilated for their faith. But, "never mind, we have plugs in our ears and cannot hear their cries. Never mind, it is happening somewhere else. WE are safe." YEAH, right! Bible says, "And if one member suffers, all the members (of Christ's Body) suffer with [it].... "1 Cor 12:26 We might not feel we are suffering, but we are. We are suffering the loss of a functioning member of the Body, or the comparative uselessness of his/her function as they are undergoing torture and imprisonment, at the very least. To put out of mind the suffering of members of the Body is a suffering all its own, suffering of hardening of the heart and searing of the conscience. To not care for, whether in provision, compassion or in prayer, for the oppressed, imprisoned and hunted Body members, is to be a "goat", according to Matthew 25.

I say this not to condemn but to stir up the members of the Body not so treated, including myself, to realize and appreciate that "we" who are not persecuted are privileged to pray for and act for those who are. To realize more clearly that a time of persecution may come sooner for us than we would think and hope. That one day, perhaps soon, we may be the focus of Muslim hatred and persecution and won't we want and cry out for help and prayer from our fellows then?

 

[tessiewebb]

Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism all partake in this kind of thing

I'd like you to explain this a bit more fully, Novil. Please provide some current examples of Christians, Jews, or Buddists who are waging religious war and violence. The warring between Israel and Palestine excluded, please, since there is background there in the Bible that says the land is Israel's. None of these groups mentioned is wholly innocent in "war and violence". But tell me if you know, where any of the three groups are engaged in all out takeovers of governments, peoples, and countries by violence, war, or stealth as are the Muslims. As well as persecution of any and all who do not agree with their "religion".

The Western media heavily focuses on Islam as a religion of war and violence,

Actually, no they don't. They focus on how "peaceful" Islam "really is", how it is not "proper" to call it as it is and most certainly not on the lies, deception, stealth and violent persecution committed by Muslims on daily, hourly, minute by minute bases.

 

[jasoncran]

where did the muslims get that? remember the jews were doing that greeting since the time of moses. it means this in jewry. peace, blessings from God as you do torah. I had a friend who I sent a link to what shalom meant and he asked a jew(he works at a reformed temple) and they told him this:

actually they do. the jews admit this.

So what is your point? A greeting used by both, which by the way, I did not deny, so what? As my father used to say, "What has that to do with the price of tea in China?"

if you believe that ishmeal is the son of Abraham then its relevant. it means that like ALL false religions they are copied and distortions of the original story of genesis. remember the Egyptian/ Chaldean and other myths are close to the genesis account. it is believed that Abraham started the greeting. that an arabs and jews are related in that they are both semites. and the languages do have words in common. arabs and jews don't eat pork.

 

[tessiewebb]

if you believe that ishmeal is the son of Abraham then its relevant. it means that like ALL false religions they are copied and distortions of the original story of genesis. remember the Egyptian/ Chaldean and other myths are close to the genesis account. it is believed that Abraham started the greeting. that an arabs and jews are related in that they are both semites. and the languages do have words in common. arabs and jews don't eat pork.

Once again you're missing the point of my replies. As a Christian I am well acquainted with how religions of the world are derived from not only the Bible but from God's work even before anything was written.

I just don't see why that is important to this thread and why it seems so important to you to reply to every post with your knowledge of things Jewish. If it was really relevant to the thread, I'd gladly take in your information but often it just seems like you are only interested in displaying your knowledge.

 

[Aardverk]

..... In 2012 in Pakistan, as Christian children were ..... Their justification for such violence? "You are disturbing our prayers…. How dare you use the mike and speakers?"

What you describe here, and in other anecdotes, are crimes. The fact that you describe crimes by Muslims does not alter that fact and there is no excuse for those crimes.

It is difficult to justify almost all crimes. The problem that I perceive is keeping a balanced view and not leaping to conclusions.

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

Christian terrorists in various South American countries, India, Norway (Anders Breivik), Ireland, Romania, Uganda and even the good old US of A, etc are every bit as wicked and are acting against the teaching of Christianity as the Muslim criminals and terrorists are acting against the teachings of Islam. We must try not to lose sight of the fact that both Christianity and Islam has its lunatic fringe. The Klu Klux Klan were after all only trying to promote good Christians (Ha!) but they rapidly became terrorists that no-one here is likely to defend.

Yes, your anecdotes are horrific. You describe things that should never happen but you are describing a small minority of people. Castigate those criminals by all means but remember that the majority of Muslims are just like the majority of Christians. They want to live in peace.

Those Muslims who advocate terrorism and who indoctrinate poor kids, who know no better, are the ones who deserve your bile, not Islam as a whole. They are no better than the Christian Crusaders who set off to kill as many Muslims and Jews as they could in the firm belief that it would purge their sins and smooth their way into heaven. I hope we know better now.

Acting as aggressively as the worst of those few Islamic sects is about the worst thing possible. I think we should try to remember Jesus's sermon on the mount instead.

 

[Eugene]

What you describe here, and in other anecdotes, are crimes.

Without God who is to determine crime? Does it then become reasonable to burn Christian churches and how about sacrificing children to their gods? Whatever floats your boat, all become captains of their destiny, and now we have seven billion dictating my behavior. Don't tell me what to do and not to do huh? One of them below must be right.

:fight​

 

[Eugene]

What you describe here, and in other anecdotes, are crimes.

Without God who is to determine crime? Does it then become reasonable to burn Christian churches and how about sacrificing children to their gods? Whatever floats your boat, all become captains of their destiny, and now we have seven billion dictating my behavior? Don't tell me what to do and not to do huh? One of them below must be right.

:fight​

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=94669]kiwidan[/MENTION] that person is likely a troll. first off only jews and messianic jews do that with G-D and the later wouldn't bash you for that. the former would likely say something like. the muslims if they live peacefully may worshop allah even though I disagree with that religion or damn all muslims.

 

[Potluck]

I just have to say that no matter what you hear about Muslims, you have to remember most Muslims aren't like this. The Western media heavily focuses on Islam as a religion of war and violence, mainly because of 9/11, and it heavily skews facts about what actually happens. Another thing is that Christianity, Judaism, and Buddhism all partake in this kind of thing, but the media barley covers it, which is why you don't hear about it very often/

There's a march scheduled to make that point in Washington.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/1...ng-mass-demonstration-on-12th-anniversary-11/

Critics say a Muslim group picked the wrong day – Sept. 11 - to march on Washington to complain about religious profiling and President Obama’s handling of an investigation into the terror attacks that rocked America 12 years ago.

The mass demonstration, called the "Million Muslim March," was changed to a more mainstream-sounding event, "Million American March Against Fear," but the name did not seem to gain much traction and has apparently reverted back to its original title.

American Muslim Political Action Committee (AMPAC), which is organizing the march, claims Muslims nationwide have been the victims of anti-Islamic bigotry in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, Al Qaeda terrorist attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on American soil.

"On 9.11.01 our country was forever changed by the horrific events in New York. The entire country was victimized by the acts done on that day," the group said in a statement. "Muslim and Non Muslim alike were traumatized but we as Muslims continue 12 years later to be victimized by being made the villains. To this day every media outlet and anti Islamic organization has committed slanderous and libel statements against us as Muslims and our religion of Islam."

"Yet our Government either sits idly by and does nothing to protect our freedoms or it exacerbates the problem with its constant war on terrorism in Islamic countries, congressional hearings on Islam in America, and its changes to the NDAA law," the statement says.

Here is a very curious statement....
"exacerbates the problem with its constant war on terrorism in Islamic countries"

So I suppose we should stop our war on terrorism overseas?

Either that's one of the more selfish statements I've heard in that they say this not caring about those being killed by terrorist acts of murder but care only for their own image or they are trying not to offend their violent brothers so as not to incite reprisal.
Or something else but I don't know what.

I'm not real sure what to make of that.

If they don't want to upset radical Islamists then I seriously doubt they will take any more of a stand than lip service or simple token condemnation. So that leaves everyone else to stand up to the radicals, outsiders so-to-speak. And of course Christians and they are going to march on Washington. Yeah, makes sense.

Now, what I find really interesting is the lack of mention from the WH or these peaceful Muslim groups condemning the slaughter of Christians in Egypt by the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood. So they are going to march on Washington who doesn't seem to care and neither do they apparently. Kinda like the choir marching on the pulpit.

So we need to stop our war on terror and let Christians be slaughtered in Egypt saying nothing, keeping our mouths shut, for the sake of their image?

They get profiled because of what radical Islam is doing and march on Washington hollering about it but we're not to say a word against radical Islam murdering Christians because their feelings are being hurt through profiling. To make matters worse we fight against terrorism. You know, the outsiders. And we shouldn't be doing that. These Muslim groups need to march on Washington not for their image but rather to support and urge the WH in fighting terrorism in the Middle East especially against the Muslim Brotherhood. That would really demonstrate their stand against radical Islam. But that's not going to happen. Profiling is so much more threatening anyway. It's the battle cry against "victimization" while the victims of radical Islam die without fanfare.

 

[Potluck]

The Muslim Brotherhood found it's influence slipping away and now is attempting to get back control by force. They are not only targeting Christians but also killing unarmed civilians who don't happen to see things their way.

So the world watches this kind of Islam in it's true form and US Muslims are going to march on Washington to protest profiling on 9/11. People will view this march not only as off-target but without being very sympathetic to their cause while watching the Muslim Brotherhood trying to take Egypt by force including killing non-Muslim civilians.
This march will not achieve it's goals. Especially if a terrorist event against the US occurs on 9/11 while they are in the streets. Frankly their protest against profiling will seem petty and people will be looking for other, bigger reasons for this march even though none exist. Marching against profiling now whether valid or not is not a smart move IMO.

 

[By Grace]

Acting as aggressively as the worst of those few Islamic sects is about the worst thing possible. I think we should try to remember Jesus's sermon on the mount instead.

Let''s build a campfire and sing "Kumbayah"

How about a dose of reality? Their Qu'ran tells them to hate Christians and Jews, so they do.

You see when someone says that they are out to get you, and when those same people fly airplanes into big buildings, they are not kidding around.

Qur'an 9.5 And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT].
[FONT=&quot]But when the sacred months are passed away, kill the idolaters wherever ye may find them; and take them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every place of observation; but if they repent, and are steadfast in prayer, and give alms, then let them go their way; verily, God is forgiving and merciful.[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT][/FONT]

Qur’an 9:29 Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth.[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fight those who believe not in God and in the last day, and who forbid not what God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who do not practice the religion of truth from amongst those to whom the Book has been brought, until they pay the tribute by their hands and be as little ones.[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT][/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot][1][/FONT]http://www.johnworldpeace.com/koran2.html

[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT] http://i-cias.com/e.o/texts/koran/koran005.htm

[FONT=&quot][3][/FONT] http://www.johnworldpeace.com/koran2.html

[FONT=&quot][4][/FONT] http://i-cias.com/e.o/texts/koran/koran009.htm

 

[Aardverk]

Acting as aggressively as the worst of those few Islamic sects is about the worst thing possible. I think we should try to remember Jesus's sermon on the mount instead.

Let''s build a campfire and sing "Kumbayah"

How about a dose of reality? Their Qu'ran tells them to hate Christians and Jews, so they do...........

I'm afraid I still advocate following Jesus' instructions. They are the foundation stones of Christianity.

The Qu'ran, just like The Bible, contains contradictory instructions. You quote some intolerance in the Qu'ran but not the love in the Qu'ran. Just as a Muslim is not likely to be qualified to interpret The Bible reliably, we are not likely to be able to interpret the Qu'ran reliably.

Look.......

On a quick count, I just found 48 examples in The Bible where we are instructed to kill people or where God says he will kill people if they misbehave. Quoting those passages alone would give a rather lopsided impression of Christianity.

[removed by staff]

 

[By Grace]

Acting as aggressively as the worst of those few Islamic sects is about the worst thing possible. I think we should try to remember Jesus's sermon on the mount instead.

Let''s build a campfire and sing "Kumbayah"

How about a dose of reality? Their Qu'ran tells them to hate Christians and Jews, so they do...........

EDITED BY BY GRACE

Thank you for dredging up long-disproved accusations about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The killing instructions must be taken in their context: IOW Gof had a just, righteous and holy reason for ordering the things that He did, all you have to do is LOOK AT THE CONTEXT.

Here is a little way of remembering this difference: God said "kill" for what people DID. The Qur'an tells Muslims to kill people for who they ARE.

Perhaps this Sunday you can do a Bible study on those passages. Take those verses, and write them on a paper, then go to an on-line Bible website HERE is a good source and look at the context of those passages before you erroneously pontificate again.

BTW the thread is about what the Muslims teach not attacking the Bible. Your attention to that detail will be appreciated.

 

[Mike]

I've done some editing here in this thread with recent posts with some direction for those involved. Remember where you are. Remember the rules of CFnet. It is not the thirst for knowledge that compels someone to list off verses in scripture and then use them as evidence that our God is bloodthirsty. The points I have objected to and found cause to delete call into question the truth of all scripture. God is God, and He is the same in the Old Testament, New Testament, and today. Dividing His Word by promoting the thought that Jesus spoke out in opposition to OT scripture is calling His Word into question, because He is the Word then and now.

Here is the warning in general for all CFnet members to consider. The concerted effort to undermine the Word of God blatantly or stealthily is not acceptable. Such attacks are not what CFnet exists for. They aggressively work against our Statement of Faith.

ChristianForums.net Mission Statement:
ChristianForums.net aspires to provide a place where Christians can come together in fellowship for encouragement, inspiration, and strength to help build each other up and grow in our walk of faith through honest and open discussion, study, reflection, and prayer.

ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
​

 

[tessiewebb]

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

I wouuld very very much like you to prove this statement on both sides, one that Islamic nations are below average on crimes...please include the 'HONOR" killings and mutilation, discrimination and oprression of women, the mutilation of enemies, including beheadings, the torture and persecution of Christians and other non-Muslim religionists, child sex trade, human slavery, etc....and two, that the highest crime rates are in countries with "Christians" as the largest populations.

I'm not at all impressed by your statistics, I will say it sounds like pc hooey to me. You don't get to make such statements without significant proven statistical and scientific documentation of those "facts" you've stated.

Also, since that may play into these statistics, please define "crimes" as you go. Crimes against humanity are without a doubt rampant in Islamic countries. Thievery, robbery, murder, child pornography, sex trade, etc are easily acceptable definition of "crimes".

 

[Potluck]

Crime rate lower in Islamic nations?
I'm not the least bit surprised. Do you have any idea of the punishments over there? My goodness man, please tell me you don't support that sort of thing.

 

[By Grace]

Christian terrorists in various South American countries, India, Norway (Anders Breivik), Ireland, Romania, Uganda and even the good old US of A, etc are every bit as wicked and are acting against the teaching of Christianity as the Muslim criminals and terrorists are acting against the teachings of Islam.

You are cordially invited to first what a "Christian terrorist" is exactly and then second find one group (other than the Westboro Baptist church type of people) who engage in the same sorts of things such as beheadings, or flying airplanes into buildings, or shoot women in the head because they do not wear a particular type of clothing, such as a burka in the name of spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

that the majority of Muslims are just like the majority of Christians. They want to live in peace

I copied suras from the Qur'an that tell people to kill Jews and do not be friends with Christians. Find me a verse that is similar in the Bible that causes people to kill people because of what they believe, and I will consider being like you.

BTW There is one name that Christians call God, for which you have no parallel in your Allah.

My point is that you will not find a similar part of the Bible saying that, but since you guys call Christians and Jews kefir, then killing them is permitted because they are unbelievers and instructed by your pedophile prophet (I am writng about the history of Aisha, and the consummation of her "marriage" at age 9)

BTW there is one name that Christians call their God, for which you have nothing remotely close in your Allah.

 

[theLords]

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

I wouuld very very much like you to prove this statement on both sides, one that Islamic nations are below average on crimes...please include the 'HONOR" killings and mutilation, discrimination and oprression of women, the mutilation of enemies, including beheadings, the torture and persecution of Christians and other non-Muslim religionists, child sex trade, human slavery, etc....and two, that the highest crime rates are in countries with "Christians" as the largest populations.

I'm not at all impressed by your statistics, I will say it sounds like pc hooey to me. You don't get to make such statements without significant proven statistical and scientific documentation of those "facts" you've stated.

Also, since that may play into these statistics, please define "crimes" as you go. Crimes against humanity are without a doubt rampant in Islamic countries. Thievery, robbery, murder, child pornography, sex trade, etc are easily acceptable definition of "crimes".

I think you should also note that the countries with the "lowest crime rates" are mostly the countries with the least amount of data/statistics available. One of the reasons the U.S./West and Muslim nations have such a skewed crime rate when compared to each other is that extremes are being compared. You have the U.S. with the highest reported crime rates in the world and the Muslim middle east with the lowest reported crime rates in the world. You can't compare that.

 

[tessiewebb]

Crime rate lower in Islamic nations?

It's only the crimes we in the West tolerate, such as homosexuality, theivery and immoral acts such as women dressed too brazenly (at least in public)that could possibly have lower rates in Islamic nations since some of those are met by death there. The real crimes, moral and ethical, are rampant in Islamic nations because of their barbaric system of justice. For instance, can you conceive of someone being killed in the street because another person thinks they heard them "insult the prophet"? I'm thinking of a teenage boy who was killed in just such a fashion, in the street in broad daylight because he told a man who asked for credit, that even if the "prophet was asking" he wouldn't get credit. Now that is a crime! Were the men apprehended and brought to justice? I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Aardverk]

Thank you for dredging up long-disproved accusations about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The killing instructions must be taken in their context: IOW Gof had a just, righteous and holy reason for ordering the things that He did, all you have to do is LOOK AT THE CONTEXT..... .

I think 'looking at the context' is sensible advice. It takes a wise man to interpret scripture sometimes plus, often, a bit of guesswork and common sense. For that reason we have elders, pastors, bishops, etc who study The Bible and history to try to make sense of it. One of the interpretations most of them have in common is that we should NOT follow the instructions in The Bible to kill various people for doing certain things or killing people for not doing other things. I suspect that most of us will agree that we should no longer stone a woman for not being a virgin on her wedding night but that is just one of many clear instructions that could be quoted by a Muslim, for example, who wanted to portray Christianity as a bloodthirsty religion.

Islam has a very similar hierarchy of wise men, mullahs, scholars etc who also devote their life to trying to understand and properly interpret their scripture. They also try to read things in context and, of course, they justify ignoring the instructions to kill, just as we ignore the instructions in the Bible to kill. Most of them, same as most Christians, have moved beyond that simplistic, naive interpretation. Quoting the killing instructions in the Qu'ran is no more a valid way of depicting Islam as quoting similar passages on The Bible. It has to be taken IN CONTEXT.

Yes, of course there are a few Islamic groups who love nothing more than to go on a killing rampage and they, just like people in other religions, seek a scriptural justification for their murders, cruelty, apartheid, etc. The vast majority of Muslims deplore their actions just as much as Christians deplore the actions of Christian terrorists and criminals.

One of the factors that many people on this forum need to face up to, is separating the fairly common Muslim hatred of Americans from the perceived hatred of Christians. Hatred is aimed at Americans for some pretty obvious historical reasons. I am sure I don't need to spell them out. If the Islamophobes would just take the trouble to quietly and humbly get to know a few Muslims they would realize that they are people - just as Christian, Buddhists, Jews, Druids, Shintoists, etc are. We are all the same mix of intelligence and stupidity, kindness and cruelty, honesty and villainy.

I still advocate following Jesus's instructions plus keeping a balanced view rather than succumbing to the ravings of all the Islamophobes spreading hate and fear. Deal with the criminals, don't get diverted into hatred.