ISLAM IN THE WORLD

[Aardverk]

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

I wouuld very very much like you to prove this statement on both sides, one that Islamic nations are below average on crimes...please include the 'HONOR" killings and mutilation, discrimination and oprression of women, the mutilation of enemies, including beheadings, the torture and persecution of Christians and other non-Muslim religionists, child sex trade, human slavery, etc....and two, that the highest crime rates are in countries with "Christians" as the largest populations.

I'm not at all impressed by your statistics, I will say it sounds like pc hooey to me. You don't get to make such statements without significant proven statistical and scientific documentation of those "facts" you've stated.

Also, since that may play into these statistics, please define "crimes" as you go. Crimes against humanity are without a doubt rampant in Islamic countries. Thievery, robbery, murder, child pornography, sex trade, etc are easily acceptable definition of "crimes".

I have of course not given you any statistics, nor do I need to. Just do an internet search. You could start with the United Nations figures if you wish but there are plenty more. Just try to avoid those which clearly have a bias.

I find it interesting that you mention "child pornography and sex trade" as crimes "rampant in Islamic countries". Where do you get those ideas from? Has someone told you that or have you checked it for yourself?

 

[Aardverk]

You are cordially invited to first what a "Christian terrorist" is exactly and then second find one group (other than the Westboro Baptist church type of people) who engage in the same sorts of things such as beheadings, or flying airplanes into buildings, or shoot women in the head because they do not wear a particular type of clothing, such as a burka in the name of spreading the good news of Jesus Christ.

Ah, where do I start? Do you mean historically or just in the last week or two? How far back would you like me to go? The trouble is, if I start listing all the Christian terrorist actions my post will simply be deleted. Someone will interpret it as 'attacking Christianity' rather that just answering your question.

It is worth bearing in mind that there is no clear international agreement about what constitutes terrorism for the very good reason that one mans 'terrorist' is another man's 'freedom fighter' e.g. Moshe Dayan, Che Guevara, Patrick Pearse, Nelson Mandela, and even George Washington etc. It clearly depends upon your perspective. I certainly do not want to get bogged down in opinions on the merits of these few examples as they are only examples to illustrate my point. Similarly, I offer you the names of a few groups that are commonly regarded as terrorists although I do appreciate that some will choose to regard them as fighting the good fight: Anders Behring Breivik, Army of God, Hutaree, Orange Volunteers, The Iron Guard, Sinn Fein, The National Liberation Front of Tripura, The Lord's Resistance Army, National Socialist Council of Nagaland, Ku Klux Klan, The Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord, plus of course all the South American terrorist groups that are devoutly Christian except when they want to use their power to extort. They are more clearly just criminals but so are the rest to most people.

I copied suras from the Qur'an that tell people to kill Jews and do not be friends with Christians. Find me a verse that is similar in the Bible that causes people to kill people because of what they believe....

I did precisely that but my post was deleted because Mike thought I was "attacking the word of God". So, sorry, you will have to look them up yourself - or ask Mike.

BTW There is one name that Christians call God, for which you have no parallel in your Allah.

I am sorry if I have caused confusion but I certainly am not a Muslim. I have no idea what made you think that. I simply choose not to identify myself as a Christian any more; for reasons of my own.

My point is that you will not find a similar part of the Bible saying that, but since you guys call Christians and Jews kefir, then killing them is permitted because they are unbelievers and instructed by your pedophile prophet (I am writng about the history of Aisha, and the consummation of her "marriage" at age 9)

Again, sorry if you are confused by my abhorrence of hatred. I find it sad that you keep trying to provoke me by insulting Islam though.

I wholeheartedly agree that consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early. I have no idea what was 'normal' in those days though. It may not have been considered anything odd at all, rather like slavery was also the norm. Fortunately we have moved on in many ways and the age for marriage in most countries is around 16. The lowest legal age for marriage, that I am aware of, is 12!

All I ask Islamophobes is that they stop and consider what Jesus would have said on the subject of religious hatred. Hopefully, they will try to do what Jesus would have advised.

 

[Aardverk]

.....I think you should also note that the countries with the "lowest crime rates" are mostly the countries with the least amount of data/statistics available. One of the reasons the U.S./West and Muslim nations have such a skewed crime rate when compared to each other is that extremes are being compared. You have the U.S. with the highest reported crime rates in the world and the Muslim middle east with the lowest reported crime rates in the world. You can't compare that.

There is some truth in what you say. Without looking it up, I believe that the USA has the highest per capita prison population too. That could mean that the police do a better job or it could mean that the crime rate is indeed higher.

I think a good test would be to walk through a city at night and see how soon you get mugged, assaulted or killed. As an obvious American in a troubled middle East state we would be taking a risk but a native of most of those countries would be perfectly safe.

How about a US city? A few years ago, in New York, you would be lucky to stay alive. Admittedly it has improved a lot but there are still plenty of places in the US, England, Ireland, Australia, France, Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Brazil, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Peru etc, etc that I would NOT walk at night. My guess is that you wouldn't either.

 

[Aardverk]

It's only the crimes we in the West tolerate, such as homosexuality, theivery and immoral acts such as women dressed too brazenly (at least in public)that could possibly have lower rates in Islamic nations since some of those are met by death there......

This seems to be a popular misconception. Yes, homosexuality is a crime and can be punished by death BUT is that a true picture of Islamic nations? No. Arabs have a tradition of men cuddling up together in the cold desert night. I leave the rest to your imagination.

When homosexuality was still a crime in much of Europe, the main vacation destinations for homosexuals were the nearby N. African states where homosexuality was completely ignored. So much so that you would, every day, see men walking together hand in hand - not because they were homosexuals but because they were dear friends and there was no stigma attached to being close friends. That friendly, loving innocence has been reduced by homophobia but it very much still exists.

No, I am not a homosexual. I just visit more countries than most people and I observe what really goes on. Try Googling 'homosexual vacation morocco' and see what you find going on in that Islamic nation :crazy.

 

[tessiewebb]

Islam has a very similar hierarchy of wise men, mullahs, scholars etc who also devote their life to trying to understand and properly interpret their scripture. They also try to read things in context and, of course, they justify ignoring the instructions to kill, just as we ignore the instructions in the Bible to kill. Most of them, same as most Christians, have moved beyond that simplistic, naive interpretation. Quoting the killing instructions in the Qu'ran is no more a valid way of depicting Islam as quoting similar passages on The Bible. It has to be taken IN CONTEXT.

You completely miss the point that the reason Christians don't follow the OT rules on killing pagans is because the New Testament was written after Jesus came and set things in new directions. Muslims say a good deal of the OT is "wrong" because it shows the Jews rather than Ishmael's descendants as the "apple of God's eye" and disregard the NT completely since they believe Jesus was "only a prophet", not the only Begotten, Beloved Son of God. Like all things satanic, their religion is based on a huge lie.

 

[tessiewebb]

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

Now you are saying you didn't give me any statistics? What are these statements then? Just something you thought up?

 

[Eugene]

All I ask Islamophobes is that they stop and consider what Jesus would have said on the subject of religious hatred. Hopefully, they will try to do what Jesus would have advised.

Hopefully I'm not an Islamophobe; God knows, but as to our relationship I believe it is stated in 2 Corinthians 6:14. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

 

[Aardverk]

Islam has a very similar hierarchy of wise men, mullahs, scholars etc who also devote their life to trying to understand and properly interpret their scripture. They also try to read things in context and, of course, they justify ignoring the instructions to kill, just as we ignore the instructions in the Bible to kill. Most of them, same as most Christians, have moved beyond that simplistic, naive interpretation. Quoting the killing instructions in the Qu'ran is no more a valid way of depicting Islam as quoting similar passages on The Bible. It has to be taken IN CONTEXT.

You completely miss the point that the reason Christians don't follow the OT rules on killing pagans is because the New Testament was written after Jesus came and set things in new directions. Muslims say a good deal of the OT is "wrong" because it shows the Jews rather than Ishmael's descendants as the "apple of God's eye" and disregard the NT completely since they believe Jesus was "only a prophet", not the only Begotten, Beloved Son of God. Like all things satanic, their religion is based on a huge lie.

We seem to be entering an area of discussion where we each have to decide what to obey and what not to obey. You seem to be telling me that we should ignore what is written in The Bible. Well, I do obviously agree that we should ignore it sometimes but presumably for different reasons than yours.

Tell me why you think we should ignore Matthew 5:18

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Mathew 5:18 [NIV]​

Last time I looked out of the window, the earth had not disappeared. Also, we are still awaiting the second coming so obviously 'everything has not yet been accomplished'. Therefore the inevitable conclusion can be drawn that 'not the smallest jot or tittle of the law has disappeared'. Vague references to a new covenant or ceremonial law etc do not remove these very clear words from The Bible yet we, very sensibly, do not follow these laws as Jesus said we should. (For goodness sake don't interpret that as me advocating going on a killing spree.)

Now, please consider the religious texts of other religions which contain similar laws. Are you personally qualified to decide what text should be ignored and which should be followed? Probably not when it comes to Islam. What you are doing, when you quote the killing parts of the Qu'ran is riding on the backs of a few militant Muslims with their highly questionable literal translation. You are actually helping them to spread hatred. They are very effectively using Islamophobes as pawns in their attempt to spread aggressive Islam. The more aggression Islamic countries get from 'Christian' countries, the more anti-Christian Mulsims will appear. Someone has to turn the other cheek.

You very sensibly choose to make a 'sophisticated' interpretation of The Bible and you refrain from following every jot and tittle of the law but you are denying Islam, in general, a similar right to make a 'sophisticated' interpretation of their texts. Islamic Scholars do not advocate killing Christians, I suggest you ask them why - if you are truly interested.

 

[Aardverk]

If we look at crime rates around the world, ALL of the Islamic nations are below average on crimes. The lowest crime rates happen to be in atheist states but there could be several reasons for that. What is glaringly obvious though is that the highest crime rates are in countries with the biggest proportion of Christians.

Now you are saying you didn't give me any statistics? What are these statements then? Just something you thought up?

sta·tis·tics [stuh-tis-tiks] noun
1.(used with a singular verb) the science that deals with the collection, classification, analysis, and interpretation of numerical facts or data, and that, by use of mathematical theories of probability, imposes order and regularity on aggregates of more or less disparate elements.
2.(used with a plural verb) the numerical facts or data themselves. [Dictionary.com] ​

My underlining.

I hope that helps. I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the correct use of the English language.

 

[Aardverk]

All I ask Islamophobes is that they stop and consider what Jesus would have said on the subject of religious hatred. Hopefully, they will try to do what Jesus would have advised.

Hopefully I'm not an Islamophobe; God knows, but as to our relationship I believe it is stated in 2 Corinthians 6:14. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

That's an interesting use of that passage. It is more commonly cited as an instruction not to marry an unbeliever.

I'm not sure I understand your interpretation in connection with international and inter-faith relationships. Especially, in your interpetation, 'unequally yoked'. To whom or to what are considering being equally or unequally yoked?

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Matthew 5:9 [NIV]​

 

[tessiewebb]

I wholeheartedly agree that consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early. I have no idea what was 'normal' in those days though.

Those days? How about this story from http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/26/yemen.divorce/

Child bride's nightmare after divorce


"I was happy I got divorced but I'm sad about the way it turned out after I went on television," she said adding that she feels like an outcast even among her family and friends. Nujood was pulled out of school in early 2008 and married off by her own parents to a man she says was old and ugly. And yet, as a wife, Nujood was spared nothing.

Nujood Ali, 10, was married to a man in his 30s, who then allegedly raped her. While she is now divorced, she has been criticized for confronting her husband and not accepting her fate. Not only was she denounced by some for not obeying her husband, but under Islamic Sharia law in Yemen, her family had to compensate the accused rapist. http://jonathanturley.org/2008/07/1...n-yemen-married-and-then-raped-then-divorced/

BTW, Nujood was born 1998. The divorce took place in 2008, not in "those days".

 

[tessiewebb]

I hope that helps. I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the correct use of the English language.

You are dithering over a definition. You made statements that claimed to be facts, I asked that you back it up and you obviously can't. Case closed.

 

[tessiewebb]

until everything is accomplished. Mathew 5:18 [NIV]

Before anything else let me point out that the translator of the NIV has repented. That being said, Jesus cried "It is finished!" on the cross. So, I ask you what was 'finished'? Maybe you should read Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; or 11 "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing."

BTW, the word obey in 5:9 is hypakouō, meaningto listen, to harken a) of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)

 

[Eugene]

All I ask Islamophobes is that they stop and consider what Jesus would have said on the subject of religious hatred. Hopefully, they will try to do what Jesus would have advised.

Hopefully I'm not an Islamophobe; God knows, but as to our relationship I believe it is stated in 2 Corinthians 6:14. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

That's an interesting use of that passage. It is more commonly cited as an instruction not to marry an unbeliever.

I'm not sure I understand your interpretation in connection with international and inter-faith relationships. Especially, in your interpetation, 'unequally yoked'. To whom or to what are considering being equally or unequally yoked?

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Matthew 5:9 [NIV]​

As I‘m sure you’re aware, the context continues to include our fellowship with unrighteousness. To be yoked isn’t restricted to marriage but to also associate discordantly or not in harmony. A similar scripture in Rev 18:4 “Come out of her, my people†showing God’s judgment of His people with instruction to come out the religious system they will be affiliated with in that time. “

2 Cor 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

I have observed efforts of ecumenical religious peoples that come together and hold joint supposed communion with God, and lest there is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob reached through the blood of Jesus, they may as well talk to the wind.

I read in Rom 12:18, “ If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men,†but I do not hesitate to also witness if possible, for God would have me do so if led to. I have found many Muslims very receptive to the things of God, but I only plant a seed, another may water, but it will be God that gives any increase to them.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Aardverk]

I wholeheartedly agree that consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early. I have no idea what was 'normal' in those days though.

Those days? How about this story from http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/26/yemen.divorce/

Child bride's nightmare after divorce


"I was happy I got divorced but I'm sad about the way it turned out after I went on television," she said adding that she feels like an outcast even among her family and friends. Nujood was pulled out of school in early 2008 and married off by her own parents to a man she says was old and ugly. And yet, as a wife, Nujood was spared nothing.

Nujood Ali, 10, was married to a man in his 30s, who then allegedly raped her. While she is now divorced, she has been criticized for confronting her husband and not accepting her fate. Not only was she denounced by some for not obeying her husband, but under Islamic Sharia law in Yemen, her family had to compensate the accused rapist. http://jonathanturley.org/2008/07/1...n-yemen-married-and-then-raped-then-divorced/

BTW, Nujood was born 1998. The divorce took place in 2008, not in "those days".

I must repeat my words, 'consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early' and I am not advocating or defending it. It is worth remembering that the normal age range to start menstruating is between 8 and 15. Yes, 8 years old!

It would be interesting to get some expert comment on Sharia Law but my understanding is:

1. A wife can not refuse sex with her husband.
2. No one can be married unless they agree.
3. A female is considered a woman once she is menstruating.

We may not agree with that but, in fairness to them, it is roughly what has always happened in the world. We are well aware of a great many child marriages in 'Christian' history. Fortunately we have, in many ways, become more 'civilized' and we should obviously try to help others understand our concerns at their archaic laws. An ancient law is not likely to be appropriate in a completely changed culture. If the culture has not changed, maybe it is still quite appropriate (lost tribes etc).

Assuming my summary of Sharia law is something like right, something or someone has obviously gone outside Sharia Law in the circumstances you describe. The men involved would not only be criminals under our laws but under Sharia Law as well. Unfortunately every nation, every faith, every ethnicity has criminals. To hold any one of them up as an example of how his 'kind' behave is hardly realistic, fair and balanced.

I note that your quotes referred to 'rape' rather than just sex. There seems to be a little more to it than meets the eye.

 

[Aardverk]

I hope that helps. I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the correct use of the English language.

You are dithering over a definition. You made statements that claimed to be facts, I asked that you back it up and you obviously can't.

I'm truly sorry if I inadvertently confused you again. I wasn't dithering, I only posted the dictionary definition to help you understand my earlier words which I believe were grammatically correct. If you want to see the 'statistics' that you desire, you can start with the UN web-site. I'm sure you don't need my help you find that one. For a fairly simplistic illustration you could try this:http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

However, as you indicate, it is an off-topic diversion that is probably best ignored. Perhaps it is a thread suitable for 'General Talk'?

 

[Aardverk]

until everything is accomplished. Mathew 5:18 [NIV]

Before anything else let me point out that the translator of the NIV has repented. That being said, Jesus cried "It is finished!" on the cross. So, I ask you what was 'finished'? Maybe you should read Heb 5:9 ....."

Yes, what could He have meant by 'It is finished'? He could have meant, 'The vinegar is finished', He could have meant, 'my life is finished', 'my struggle is finished', 'my mission is finished', and plenty of other things besides. What he very clearly didn't mean is that the earth is finished (disappeared). It is still here - ergo, Matthew 5:18 still applies. "I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law".

If you prefer a literal translation, how about: for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. [YLT]

Off-topic, I know, but please tell me more about 'the translator of the NIV repenting'. Arguments about accurately copied 'original' texts and appropriate translations have been going on for nearly two thousand years. We will not resolve it here.

 

[Aardverk]

.............I read in Rom 12:18, “ If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men,†but I do not hesitate to also witness if possible, for God would have me do so if led to. I have found many Muslims very receptive to the things of God, but I only plant a seed, another may water, but it will be God that gives any increase to them.

Thank you. It is sad that many people do not recognize the wisdom in these wise words.

 

[Aardverk]

I wholeheartedly agree that consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early. I have no idea what was 'normal' in those days though.

Those days? How about this story from http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/08/26/yemen.divorce/

Child bride's nightmare after divorce


"I was happy I got divorced but I'm sad about the way it turned out after I went on television," she said adding that she feels like an outcast even among her family and friends. Nujood was pulled out of school in early 2008 and married off by her own parents to a man she says was old and ugly. And yet, as a wife, Nujood was spared nothing.

Nujood Ali, 10, was married to a man in his 30s, who then allegedly raped her. While she is now divorced, she has been criticized for confronting her husband and not accepting her fate. Not only was she denounced by some for not obeying her husband, but under Islamic Sharia law in Yemen, her family had to compensate the accused rapist. http://jonathanturley.org/2008/07/1...n-yemen-married-and-then-raped-then-divorced/

BTW, Nujood was born 1998. The divorce took place in 2008, not in "those days".

I must repeat my words, 'consummating a marriage at 9 is pretty obviously too early' and I am not advocating or defending it. It is worth remembering that the normal age range to start menstruating is between 8 and 15. Yes, 8 years old!

It would be interesting to get some expert comment on Sharia Law but my understanding is:

1. A wife can not refuse sex with her husband.
2. No one can be married unless they agree.
3. A female is considered a woman once she is menstruating.

We may not agree with that but, in fairness to them, it is roughly what has always happened in the world. We are well aware of a great many child marriages in 'Christian' history. Fortunately we have, in many ways, become more 'civilized' and we should obviously try to help others understand our concerns at their archaic laws. An ancient law is not likely to be appropriate in a completely changed culture. If the culture has not changed, maybe it is still quite appropriate (lost tribes etc).

Assuming my summary of Sharia law is something like right, something or someone has obviously gone outside Sharia Law in the circumstances you describe. The men involved would not only be criminals under our laws but under Sharia Law as well. Unfortunately every nation, every faith, every ethnicity has criminals. To hold any one of them up as an example of how his 'kind' behave is hardly realistic, fair and balanced.

I note that your quotes referred to 'rape' rather than just sex. There seems to be a little more to it than meets the eye.

 

[Aardverk]

I hope that helps. I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the correct use of the English language.

You are dithering over a definition. You made statements that claimed to be facts, I asked that you back it up and you obviously can't.

I'm truly sorry if I inadvertently confused you again. I wasn't dithering, I only posted the dictionary definition to help you understand my earlier words which I believe were grammatically correct. If you want to see the 'statistics' that you desire, you can start with the UN web-site. I'm sure you don't need my help you find that one. For a fairly simplistic illustration you could try this:http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html

However, as you indicate, it is an off-topic diversion that is probably best ignored. Perhaps it is a thread suitable for 'General Talk'?