islamist = we love death more than you love life... scary

[Niblo]

Thank you for your kind words.

Criticism is fine, provided it is justified and supported by evidence. It doesn’t do to converse only with folk who agree with us!

Please do not remove anyone from this – or any thread – on my account.

Concerning my journey to Islam; and what it is that brings me to Christian forums (I am a member of several, including one by invitation):

A little over forty years ago – just before I became a culture missionary to the English in Yorkshire – I had an older friend who was a Biblical Unitarian (I was then a Catholic, having been raised as a Baptist). We discussed (often) both the trinity and incarnation. On one occasion I became angry with him (I was fiery in those days!). I grabbed my Bible and thrust it under his nose. ‘This is my Book’, I hissed. ‘What’s yours?’

He smiled, and gently removed the book from my hand. ‘This!’, he replied. I was stunned. How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own? He was no fool; neither was he perverse. He was both genuine and honest; a decent man who lived his faith according to his conscience. And yet, he did not, could not, believe what I believed. A seed was planted then; one that remained dormant for many years

I was a professed member of the Carmelite Third Order – with a love of biblical and dogmatic theology; hermeneutics; biblical criticism; canon law, and so on. I had excellent teachers. I was a Thomist, and still have a very high regard for the methodology of Aquinas; although I can no longer agree with all his notions.

I spent a year with the Carmelite Friars at Hazlewood Castle in Yorkshire (now a hotel); and over a year with the Cistercians (Trappists) at Mount Saint Bernard Abbey in Leicester, testing a vocation (I first visited the Abbey in my early twenties, and knew the community very well). It became clear that life in a religious order was not my calling, and so I became a husband and father (as the Abbey Secretary said to me: ‘Our novitiate is a seedbed of good Catholic marriages!’). I look back at my time with the Carmelites and Cistercians with great affection. Even though I no longer share all their doctrinal beliefs, I admire their spirituality, and their honest convictions; and their way of life – especially that of the Cistercians. It has been my privilege to know many excellent Christians: paternal grandfather; priests, religious and laity. Each was an example of the best of their Faith.

Most of my family are Christians, but they are scattered, and I have no desire for Facebook etc. Christian forums keep me in touch with the Faith in grew up in; and stir the memory of beloved friends now gone. I often wonder what they would make of some of the stuff found in these sites!

In time, the question I had asked of my Unitarian friend years before returned: ‘How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own?

That was the start of my journey away from Christianity. At that time, I knew nothing of Islam.

Peace.

 

[for_his_glory]

‘How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own?

Thank you for sharing this with us as I can understand your reason for changing.

There are over 5000 different religions in the world, each with their own doctrines. I would like to share with you part of an article I wrote on this.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The biggest deception Satan can use is to confuse the unlearned mind. God said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. You forget me and my word and I will forget you and your children. This is a pretty profound statement that holds so much truth. This is why this world is in the shape it is in today with so many religions claiming they are the true religion and only they will go to heaven and those who do not conform to their ways will go to hell.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 they eat up the sin of my people and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 and there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.​

 

[Who Me]

So the Irish National Republicans didn't run and rally based around terrorism and strong Catholic nationalism?

Oh they waived the flag of Catholicism, but there religion was a surface show.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you for sharing this with us as I can understand your reason for changing.

There are over 5000 different religions in the world, each with their own doctrines. I would like to share with you part of an article I wrote on this.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The biggest deception Satan can use is to confuse the unlearned mind. God said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. You forget me and my word and I will forget you and your children. This is a pretty profound statement that holds so much truth. This is why this world is in the shape it is in today with so many religions claiming they are the true religion and only they will go to heaven and those who do not conform to their ways will go to hell.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 they eat up the sin of my people and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 and there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.​

Hi.

Very interesting. Thank you. Stuff to do at the moment; but will get back to you very soon, God willing.

Blessings.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you for sharing this with us as I can understand your reason for changing.

There are over 5000 different religions in the world, each with their own doctrines. I would like to share with you part of an article I wrote on this.

Latin root word for religion is bondage, which is different then that of Gods pure religion of James 1:27, but that of following tradition and the doctrine of a mans church, not Gods true Church. The Latin root word is religare as re is a prefix that means return and ligare means to bind. Religion tells you what you can and cannot do and becomes socially acceptable by mans interpretations, traditions and doctrines. Religion is what nailed Christ to the cross because the Bible is not socially acceptable to society, if it were then Christ would have died in vain. God is not about mans religion, nor does he recognize religion. God is about a personal relationship with you and His son Jesus Christ.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 the same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 in him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 and the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The biggest deception Satan can use is to confuse the unlearned mind. God said his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. You forget me and my word and I will forget you and your children. This is a pretty profound statement that holds so much truth. This is why this world is in the shape it is in today with so many religions claiming they are the true religion and only they will go to heaven and those who do not conform to their ways will go to hell.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 as they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Hosea 4:8 they eat up the sin of my people and they set their heart on their iniquity.
Hosea 4:9 and there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

Truth has now turned to deception of the carnal minds ways of thinking which produces mans interpretations, traditions of law and doctrine. Satan has such a foothold on religions and has side blinded all of us into believing whatever is taught behind the pulpit is truth because after all, they are the Priest, Rabbis, Pastors, etc. etc. and they should know what they are talking about because they are our teachers. Satan is pretty clever and the master of lies and deceit.

1Peter 5:8 be sober, be vigilant, because your adversary the devil is seeking to whom he may devour.
1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Peter 5:10 but the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles, (wisdom) of God, if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth, that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ to whom be praise and dominion forever and ever, Amen.​

Greetings,

Sorry for the delayed reply.

As you know, the Church teaches that the Beloved does not have a body. He is spirit.

The Dominican theologian, St Thomas Aquinas writes:

‘Every corporeal thing, being extended, is compound and has parts. But the Beloved is not compound: therefore He is not anything corporeal. With this demonstrated truth divine authority also agrees. For it is said: God is a spirit (John 4:24): To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, only God (1 Tim. 1:17): The invisible things of God are understood and discerned by the things that are made (Rom. 1:29).’ (‘Summa Contra Gentiles - Chapter 20’).

As you know, the Beloved is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth; and is present in all created space. His omnipresence is necessary because He is not only the creator of all things, He is also their sustainer. The act of creation wasn’t a one-off event in some far distant past. It is an ongoing process of development and renewal (of evolution, if you like!).

I agree; the Beloved seeks personal relationships.

Being an omnipresent Spirit, devoid of parts, means that wherever the Beloved is, He is there in His entirety.

He is with you now – in your room – in His fullness; just as much as He is here with me; and with each and every one of us – even those who deny Him.

This cannot be otherwise, since He is everywhere.

In the Qur’an, the Beloved says:

‘So remember Me; I will remember you. Be thankful to Me, and never ungrateful. You who believe, seek help through steadfastness and prayer, for God is with the steadfast.’ (Al-Baqara: 152-153).

That the Creator of all things should beseech each and every one of us to live in remembrance of Him – to be conscious of His presence at all times – while He, in turn, remembers us (and His ‘remembrance’ is the act of One who loves, and who cherishes, to a degree none can match) is a wonder beyond mere theology; beyond imagination.

He asks that we are thankful to Him, and never ungrateful for all that He does. Remembrance helps us do this.

He asks that we seek His help through ‘steadfastness and prayer’. Remembrance helps us do this; indeed, the act of remembrance is itself a prayer.

Be mindful, therefore, that the Beloved – in His fullness – is with each of us….now! And in this ‘now’ He acts as though there are – in all the Universe – only two: Himself (the Lover), and the one He is with (the beloved).

Strive to make the most of it!

Peace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Be mindful, therefore, that the Beloved – in His fullness – is with each of us….now! And in this ‘now’ He acts as though there are – in all the Universe – only two: Himself (the Lover), and the one He is with (the beloved).

When you say beloved here I am assuming you mean God as the lover of the world and that we are the beloved of Him?

As far as Jesus you say you know him as messiah, but do you accept and confess Him as your Lord and Savior? Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Niblo]

When you say beloved here I am assuming you mean God as the lover of the world and that we are the beloved of Him?

As far as Jesus you say you know him as messiah, but do you accept and confess Him as your Lord and Savior? Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Greetings,

Yes, the Beloved is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla); and yes, all who believe in Him, and who do good works, are loved by Him. They are: ‘The best of Creation.’

The Council of Basel (1431-45 A.D.) decreed that it: ‘Holds, professes and teaches that one and the same Son of God and of man, our lord Jesus Christ, is perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity; true God and true man, of a rational soul and a body; consubstantial with the Father as regards his divinity, consubstantial with us as regards his humanity; like us in all respects except for sin; begotten before the ages from the Father, and in the last days the same born according to his humanity for us and our salvation from Mary the virgin mother of God.’ (Session 13).

Mike Robinson (a Christian apologist) writes: ‘Jesus as the Son of Man and the Son of God has two natures found in one person……The Bible reveals the dual nature of Christ and humanity’s salvation demands that be the case. It’s a mystery, but a mystery that in selected ways not only makes sense, but is necessary for redemption. Jesus, in the incarnation, did not lose His divinity. He did not lose His authority or His deity. He voluntarily came to the earth as a human baby to live perfectly as He fulfilled the Law…..He took on our humanity in order to die in our place….’ (‘How Jesus Became God In The Flesh: The Proper Exaltation Of A Prophet From Nazareth: Bart Ehrman Refuted’).

I longer accept this description of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām), and therefore no longer take him as either ‘Saviour’ or ‘Lord’. And no, I have no personal relationship with him; even though I accept him to be both a Prophet and Messiah; an honoured Messenger. Peace and Blessings be upon him.

Peace.

 

[for_his_glory]

I longer accept this description of Yeshua (ʿalayhi as-salām), and therefore no longer take him as either ‘Saviour’ or ‘Lord’. And no, I have no personal relationship with him; even though I accept him to be both a Prophet and Messiah; an honoured Messenger.

This saddens me in what you have been brought up with from your youth that you at one time did believe Jesus to be your Lord and Savior.

Unitarians embrace all religions as they are not of God, even if they claim to be Christian, Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away, 2Timothy 3:5.

One should always research the foundation of any religion before they just accept it as sounding good to them.

Here is a website that I am suggesting you go read as this is the the foundations of Islamicism. I could only pick and choose to place in here the information, but best to read it in the full. Just type this into your search engine and let me know what you think if you want to.

www.creationapologetics.org/editorials/islamsmohammed.html

 

[kathydixon]

Here is a website that I am suggesting you go read as this is the the foundations of.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,.,.

Page 8

 

[Niblo]

This saddens me in what you have been brought up with from your youth that you at one time did believe Jesus to be your Lord and Savior.

Unitarians embrace all religions as they are not of God, even if they claim to be Christian, Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away, 2Timothy 3:5.

One should always research the foundation of any religion before they just accept it as sounding good to them.

Here is a website that I am suggesting you go read as this is the the foundations of Islamicism. I could only pick and choose to place in here the information, but best to read it in the full. Just type this into your search engine and let me know what you think if you want to.

www.creationapologetics.org/editorials/islamsmohammed.html

Hi.
I'm amazed that you think I became - and remain - a Muslim without researching the foundations of Islam! 2.
Referring me to websites is not the best use of your time, since I much prefer to obtain my knowledge from books (it's an old man thing). However, out of respect for you, I'll make an exception this time. Would you like me to post my responses?
Have a great day, and very best regards.
Blessings

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi.
I'm amazed that you think I became - and remain - a Muslim without researching the foundations of Islam! 2.
Referring me to websites is not the best use of your time, since I much prefer to obtain my knowledge from books (it's an old man thing). However, out of respect for you, I'll make an exception this time. Would you like me to post my responses?
Have a great day, and very best regards.
Blessings

I gave that website as it goes in great detail in how the foundation of Islam came to be. It contains many verses out of the Quran in what they believe. You may post your responses if you want and we can discuss them, but it's up to you to decide that of what you want to follow.

 

[for_his_glory]

Page 8

What does this have to do with the topic of the OP? No one is talking about hating Muslims.

 

[Niblo]

I gave that website as it goes in great detail in how the foundation of Islam came to be. It contains many verses out of the Quran in what they believe. You may post your responses if you want and we can discuss them, but it's up to you to decide that of what you want to follow.

Thank you.

I suggest we take Mr. Grauman’s Qur’anic references one at a time. In šāʾ Allāh, when our discussion on any given reference is done, we can move to the next.

One thing before I start:

I have been accused (on another site) of not being a ‘true Muslim’ because I am a moderate (in effect, because I have not killed my wife (a Christian); or my two daughters (also Christian); or three of my Christian grandchildren; or my sister (an atheist); or all the rest of my non-Muslim family; or my non-Muslim friends, colleagues and neighbours). According to my accusers, it is the terrorists who represent true Islam. It is they who truly understand what the Qur’an is saying.

Here’s the problem: If we are to believe my accusers, then all the thousands of Muslim scholars, past and present – each of whom took their knowledge from the Qur’an and aḥādīth; and with this knowledge declared that terrorists are utterly wrong, and that their wanton violence is an evil to be fought against – are fools who cannot comprehend their own texts.

And what of the 1.8 billion Muslims who live each day in accord with the tenets of their Faith, and who never harm anyone? According to my accusers, these people are also wrong. Worse, they are not Muslims at all, since the only ‘true’ Muslim is – and must ever be – a terrorist!

I would ask anyone who agrees with my accusers to please explain the reason behind their unshakeable trust in the notion that terrorists are always right in their interpretation of the texts; while the rest of us are always wrong in our interpretation of these same texts?

I’m at a loss as to what I – and Muslims such as I – have to do to gain the same level of trust – in the hearts of such folk – as that enjoyed by terrorists!

Moving on.

Mr. Grauman writes:

‘The Qur'an commands Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam by force.’

In support of this claim he misquotes Sūrah Al-Tawba: verse 5; corrupting the text itself, as well as ripping it from its context:

“Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.’ (Surat At-Taubah 9:5).’

Please note that the words in parenthesis do not exist in the Qur’an (indeed, parentheses are not found in that Book. They are used by the translator, either by way of clarification, or to mislead the reader).

The Beloved never refers to Christians (or Jews) as ‘mushrikun’ (‘polytheists’, or ‘idolaters’). He refers to them as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title). This is what He has to say about them:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. Allāh is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8; my emphasis).

And these folk – these ‘best of creation’ – are to be converted to Islam by force? Really??

I’ve mentioned the following in another thread, but it bears repeating:

A Muslim man is not permitted to marry a ‘mushrikun’. He is, however, permitted to marry a Christian or Jewish woman; moreover, she has the absolute – and unbreakable – right, not only to retain her Faith, but to practise it. She may not be coerced into accepting Islam. My wife, for example, is a Christian.

Continued:

 

[Niblo]

Mr. Grauman is, of course, referring to the so-called ‘Sword Verse’ (an ironic title, since the word ‘sword’ does not occur in the Qur’an).

Here is the verse (emphasised) in its context:

‘A release by Allāh and His Messenger from the treaty you (believers) made with the idolaters (is announced) – you (idolaters) may move freely about the land for four months, but you should bear in mind both that you will not escape Allāh and that Allāh will disgrace those who defy (Him). On the Day of the Great Pilgrimage (there will be) a proclamation from Allāh and His Messenger to all people: ‘Allāh and His Messenger are released from (treaty) obligations to the idolaters. It will be better for you (idolaters) if you repent; know that you cannot escape Allāh if you turn away.’ (Prophet), warn those who ignore (Allāh) that they will have a painful punishment. As for those who have honoured the treaty you made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’ (Verses 1-4).

‘When the (four) forbidden months are over, wherever you encounter the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they turn (to Allāh), maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go on their way, for Allāh is most forgiving and merciful.’ (Verse 5).

‘If any one of the idolaters should seek your protection (Prophet), grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allāh, then take him to a place safe for him, for they are people with no knowledge (of it). How could there be a treaty with Allāh and His Messenger for such idolaters? But as for those with whom you made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque, so long as they remain true to you, be true to them; Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’ (Verses 6-7).

‘(How,) when, if they were to get the upper hand over you, they would not respect any tie with you, of kinship or of treaty? They please you with their tongues, but their hearts are against you and most of them are lawbreakers. They have sold Allāh’s message for a trifling gain, and barred others from His path. How evil their actions are! Where believers are concerned, they respect no tie of kinship or treaty. They are the ones who are committing aggression. If they turn to Allāh, keep up the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, then they are your brothers in faith: We make the messages clear for people who are willing to learn. But if they break their oath after having made an agreement with you, if they revile your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief – oaths mean nothing to them – so that they may stop. How could you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, who tried to drive the Messenger out, who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is Allāh you should fear if you are true believers.’ (Verses 8-13).

Let’s look more closely at a number of these verses:

Verse 1 announces the annulment of a treaty (possibly the Treaty of Ḥudaybiyah) between the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and the Quraysh.

Shaykh Seyyed Hossein Nasr informs us that: ‘Among (the various tribes) were the Banū Khuzāʿah on the side of the Prophet and Banū Bakr on the side of the Quraysh. Banū Bakr later launched an attack on the Banū Khuzāʿah, stemming from a vendetta that preexisted the Treaty of Ḥudaybiyah, and it was reported that the Quraysh assisted the Banū Bakr with arms and a small number of men.

‘The Prophet considered this act to be a breach of the treaty, thereby nullifying the need to observe the truce, and this ultimately led to the final conquest of Makkah by the Prophet and his followers. According to this account, the repudiation of the treaty is addressed to the Makkans.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

The Shaykh goes on to say that a majority of commentators opine that verse 1 was revealed a year after the breach of the Treaty; and that there is a ‘considerable difference of opinion as to which idolaters are addressed and the legal import of both the repudiation (v. 1) and the announcement (v. 3).’

Either way, verse 4 (‘As for those who have honoured the treaty you made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’) commands the Muslims to honour any peace treaty they have with those (disbelievers) who have also honoured their obligations, and who have not supported military action against the Muslims.

Verse 6: (‘If any one of the idolaters should seek your protection (Prophet), grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allāh, then take him to a place safe for him….’) makes it perfectly clear that the Muslims are not to consider a peaceful disbeliever an enemy. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) goes further, and commands the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to give his protection to any non-Muslim who seeks his help, and to deliver them to a place of safety.

Verses 7-8 refer to the hostile attitude of Meccan idolaters who cared nothing for kinship, and who initiated acts of aggression. It is because of this that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is released from his treaty obligations.

Verse 11 commands the Muslims to forgive those polytheists who honour their treaties, and to live in peace with them. Should any of the polytheist chose to accept Islam, they are to be treated as brothers.

Verse 13 urges the Muslims to fight aggression. They are reminded that it was the polytheists who broke the treaty they had with them.

And now for verse 5:

You will note – I trust – that this verse refers only to the polytheists of Mecca (the Quraysh), whose long-standing fitna (persecution) of the Muslims grew so great that the Quraysh were determined to convert the Muslims back to paganism, or else finish them off.

Muhammad Abdel Haleem – King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London states (correctly) that Al-Tawba 5 is: ‘Much referred to but notoriously misinterpreted and taken out of context.’

He goes on:

‘It was these hardened polytheists in Arabia, who would accept nothing other than the expulsion of the Muslims or their reversion to paganism, and who repeatedly broke their treaties, that the Muslims were ordered to treat in the same way – to fight them or expel them.

‘Even with such an enemy Muslims were not simply ordered to pounce on them and reciprocate by breaking the treaty themselves; instead, an ultimatum was issued, giving the enemy notice, that after the four sacred months mentioned in v.9:5 above, the Muslims would wage war on them.

‘The main clause of the sentence ‘kill the polytheists’ is singled out by some Western scholars to represent the Islamic attitude to war; even some Muslims take this view and allege that this verse abrogated other verses on war. This is pure fantasy, isolating and decontextualising a small part of a sentence.

‘The full picture is given in 9:1–15, which gives many reasons for the order to fight such polytheists. They continuously broke their agreements and aided others against the Muslims, they started hostilities against the Muslims, barred others from becoming Muslims, expelled Muslims from the Holy Mosque and even from their own homes. At least eight times the passage mentions their misdeeds against the Muslims.

‘Consistent with restrictions on war elsewhere in the Qur’an, the immediate context of this ‘Sword Verse’ exempts such polytheists as do not break their agreements and who keep the peace with the Muslims (9:7). It orders that those enemies seeking safe conduct should be protected and delivered to the place of safety they seek (9:6). The whole of this context to v.5, with all its restrictions, is ignored by those who simply isolate one part of a sentence to build their theory of war in Islam.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’).

That’s it for now. I look forward to your comments.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Blessings.

 

[for_his_glory]

I suggest we take Mr. Grauman’s Qur’anic references one at a time. In šāʾ Allāh, when our discussion on any given reference is done, we can move to the next.

One thing before I start:

I have been accused (on another site) of not being a ‘true Muslim’ because I am a moderate (in effect, because I have not killed my wife (a Christian); or my two daughters (also Christian); or three of my Christian grandchildren; or my sister (an atheist); or all the rest of my non-Muslim family; or my non-Muslim friends, colleagues and neighbours). According to my accusers, it is the terrorists who represent true Islam. It is they who truly understand what the Qur’an is saying.

Here’s the problem: If we are to believe my accusers, then all the thousands of Muslim scholars, past and present – each of whom took their knowledge from the Qur’an and aḥādīth; and with this knowledge declared that terrorists are utterly wrong, and that their wanton violence is an evil to be fought against – are fools who cannot comprehend their own texts.

And what of the 1.8 billion Muslims who live each day in accord with the tenets of their Faith, and who never harm anyone? According to my accusers, these people are also wrong. Worse, they are not Muslims at all, since the only ‘true’ Muslim is – and must ever be – a terrorist!

I would ask anyone who agrees with my accusers to please explain the reason behind their unshakeable trust in the notion that terrorists are always right in their interpretation of the texts; while the rest of us are always wrong in our interpretation of these same texts?

I’m at a loss as to what I – and Muslims such as I – have to do to gain the same level of trust – in the hearts of such folk – as that enjoyed by terrorists!

First I would like to address this first part before moving on by saying not all Muslims are terrorist as being a part of the Jihad set out to kill the Jews and Christians. Many do live a peaceful life and get along with non-Muslim neighbors, but yet they only believe Jesus to only be a prophet and not the Son of God. I would only assume in your early years you too believed Jesus as being the only begotten Son of God and our Lord and Savior.

I can understand why you turned to the Muslim religion after everything you went through that brought so much confusion, but can not understand why you did not turn to Jesus, who holds the answers to all our confusion, questions and even our doubts.

 

[for_his_glory]

Niblo I want to discuss all of this, but you have given me to much to try and discuss all at once. Can you begin again by picking out small parts like “Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.’ (Surat At-Taubah 9:5).’

What is in parenthesis describes what As-salat and Zakat mean as in public prayers and alms giving. If you look up Surat At-Taubah 9:5 in the Quran you will find this passage like all the passages he uses.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mr. Grauman is, of course, referring to the so-called ‘Sword Verse’ (an ironic title, since the word ‘sword’ does not occur in the Qur’an).

Here is the verse (emphasised) in its context:

‘A release by Allāh and His Messenger from the treaty you (believers) made with the idolaters (is announced) – you (idolaters) may move freely about the land for four months, but you should bear in mind both that you will not escape Allāh and that Allāh will disgrace those who defy (Him). On the Day of the Great Pilgrimage (there will be) a proclamation from Allāh and His Messenger to all people: ‘Allāh and His Messenger are released from (treaty) obligations to the idolaters. It will be better for you (idolaters) if you repent; know that you cannot escape Allāh if you turn away.’ (Prophet), warn those who ignore (Allāh) that they will have a painful punishment. As for those who have honoured the treaty you made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’ (Verses 1-4).

‘When the (four) forbidden months are over, wherever you encounter the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they turn (to Allāh), maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go on their way, for Allāh is most forgiving and merciful.’ (Verse 5).

‘If any one of the idolaters should seek your protection (Prophet), grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allāh, then take him to a place safe for him, for they are people with no knowledge (of it). How could there be a treaty with Allāh and His Messenger for such idolaters? But as for those with whom you made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque, so long as they remain true to you, be true to them; Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’ (Verses 6-7).

‘(How,) when, if they were to get the upper hand over you, they would not respect any tie with you, of kinship or of treaty? They please you with their tongues, but their hearts are against you and most of them are lawbreakers. They have sold Allāh’s message for a trifling gain, and barred others from His path. How evil their actions are! Where believers are concerned, they respect no tie of kinship or treaty. They are the ones who are committing aggression. If they turn to Allāh, keep up the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, then they are your brothers in faith: We make the messages clear for people who are willing to learn. But if they break their oath after having made an agreement with you, if they revile your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief – oaths mean nothing to them – so that they may stop. How could you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, who tried to drive the Messenger out, who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is Allāh you should fear if you are true believers.’ (Verses 8-13).

Let’s look more closely at a number of these verses:

Verse 1 announces the annulment of a treaty (possibly the Treaty of Ḥudaybiyah) between the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and the Quraysh.

Shaykh Seyyed Hossein Nasr informs us that: ‘Among (the various tribes) were the Banū Khuzāʿah on the side of the Prophet and Banū Bakr on the side of the Quraysh. Banū Bakr later launched an attack on the Banū Khuzāʿah, stemming from a vendetta that preexisted the Treaty of Ḥudaybiyah, and it was reported that the Quraysh assisted the Banū Bakr with arms and a small number of men.

‘The Prophet considered this act to be a breach of the treaty, thereby nullifying the need to observe the truce, and this ultimately led to the final conquest of Makkah by the Prophet and his followers. According to this account, the repudiation of the treaty is addressed to the Makkans.’ (‘The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary’).

The Shaykh goes on to say that a majority of commentators opine that verse 1 was revealed a year after the breach of the Treaty; and that there is a ‘considerable difference of opinion as to which idolaters are addressed and the legal import of both the repudiation (v. 1) and the announcement (v. 3).’

Either way, verse 4 (‘As for those who have honoured the treaty you made with them and who have not supported anyone against you: fulfil your agreement with them to the end of their term. Allāh loves those who are mindful of Him.’) commands the Muslims to honour any peace treaty they have with those (disbelievers) who have also honoured their obligations, and who have not supported military action against the Muslims.

Verse 6: (‘If any one of the idolaters should seek your protection (Prophet), grant it to him so that he may hear the word of Allāh, then take him to a place safe for him….’) makes it perfectly clear that the Muslims are not to consider a peaceful disbeliever an enemy. Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) goes further, and commands the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to give his protection to any non-Muslim who seeks his help, and to deliver them to a place of safety.

Verses 7-8 refer to the hostile attitude of Meccan idolaters who cared nothing for kinship, and who initiated acts of aggression. It is because of this that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is released from his treaty obligations.

Verse 11 commands the Muslims to forgive those polytheists who honour their treaties, and to live in peace with them. Should any of the polytheist chose to accept Islam, they are to be treated as brothers.

Verse 13 urges the Muslims to fight aggression. They are reminded that it was the polytheists who broke the treaty they had with them.

And now for verse 5:

You will note – I trust – that this verse refers only to the polytheists of Mecca (the Quraysh), whose long-standing fitna (persecution) of the Muslims grew so great that the Quraysh were determined to convert the Muslims back to paganism, or else finish them off.

Muhammad Abdel Haleem – King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London states (correctly) that Al-Tawba 5 is: ‘Much referred to but notoriously misinterpreted and taken out of context.’

He goes on:

‘It was these hardened polytheists in Arabia, who would accept nothing other than the expulsion of the Muslims or their reversion to paganism, and who repeatedly broke their treaties, that the Muslims were ordered to treat in the same way – to fight them or expel them.

‘Even with such an enemy Muslims were not simply ordered to pounce on them and reciprocate by breaking the treaty themselves; instead, an ultimatum was issued, giving the enemy notice, that after the four sacred months mentioned in v.9:5 above, the Muslims would wage war on them.

‘The main clause of the sentence ‘kill the polytheists’ is singled out by some Western scholars to represent the Islamic attitude to war; even some Muslims take this view and allege that this verse abrogated other verses on war. This is pure fantasy, isolating and decontextualising a small part of a sentence.

‘The full picture is given in 9:1–15, which gives many reasons for the order to fight such polytheists. They continuously broke their agreements and aided others against the Muslims, they started hostilities against the Muslims, barred others from becoming Muslims, expelled Muslims from the Holy Mosque and even from their own homes. At least eight times the passage mentions their misdeeds against the Muslims.

‘Consistent with restrictions on war elsewhere in the Qur’an, the immediate context of this ‘Sword Verse’ exempts such polytheists as do not break their agreements and who keep the peace with the Muslims (9:7). It orders that those enemies seeking safe conduct should be protected and delivered to the place of safety they seek (9:6). The whole of this context to v.5, with all its restrictions, is ignored by those who simply isolate one part of a sentence to build their theory of war in Islam.’ (‘Understanding the Qur’an – Themes and Style’).

That’s it for now. I look forward to your comments.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Blessings.

Basically what you are giving here is what is written in Surat At-Taubah 9:5 “Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christians and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But, if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.’

Bottom line is that Muslims do not believe in the Trinity and they reduce Jesus as nothing more than a prophet denying the Incarnation of Christ who was before the foundation of the world.

Were you a Muslim before you married and had children?

 

[for_his_glory]

Banu Qurayza

The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammed against the Quraysh (Keep in mind that the Quraysh tribe was Mohammed's own people). Conveniently once again, Mohammed claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. This became his justification to starve the tribe into surrender by besieging their fortress for twenty-five days. He then sentenced every male member of the tribe to death, enslaved all the women and children, and plundered all of their property.

The prophet had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medina10 and then the men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up one by one and forced to the edge of the trench on their knees. They were offered a last chance to convert to Islam and if they refused, their heads were cut off.11 As soon as one head would roll off, the corpse would be kicked into the ditch, and so it went. By daybreak hundreds of corpses had been piled up in a heap, tangled cesspool of blood, hair, and shreds of flesh. Despite the horrific end in front of their eyes, none of the Jews chose to convert to Islam and faced death valiantly. The blood of nearly 900 innocent Jews stained Mohammed's hands on that black day.12

Their only crime was that they chose to retain their fundamental human right, of choosing their own God and the religion of their ancestors. Hysterical women and children screamed as they watched their fathers, husbands and sons brutally murdered. The majority of them were savagely raped and then bundled off to be sold as 'used goods.' The prophet had the husband of the Jewess Raihana Bint Amr hacked to pieces before her very eyes hours after he had murdered her father.13 After these atrocities he raped the mortified girl and tried to force her to convert to Islam.

Many Muslim revisionist-historians promote the idea that Raihana Bint Amr willingly submitted to Mohammed. According to this logic, it is very natural to imagine that a woman, who has just seen her husband, father, brothers, and tribe slaughtered violently before her very eyes, would choose to convert to the religion of the murderer and marry him! Ultimately she refused to convert to Islam as well as marry him so he retained her as a lowly concubine for the rest of his life.14 So much for the 'Apostle of Peace' and his unbounded respect for women. Mohammed was nothing but a serial rapist, who acquired his victims by killing their families first.

Islam's Allah has provided yet another timeless Divine revelation which gives his prophet the right to rape and torture women of other religions.

Surat 4:24
"And all married women are forbidden unto you EXCEPT those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."


In short, Allah the all merciful is affirming that any non-Muslim woman is fair game to rape provided she is "captured" first - "..Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned..." - how divine!

How could anyone follow the teachings of a thief, murderer and rapist is beyond me.​

 

[Niblo]

Oh dear.

Do you desire a civilised conversation about the web article you referred to, or do you simply wish to vent your spleen? If the latter, then, regrettably, there is no more to be said.

And yes, I was both a husband and father long before I became a Muslim. What is the relevance here?

Would you prefer a discussion about why I am no longer a Christian. Rest assured, in such discussion I would not need to mention Islam at all. Your call.

Peace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh dear.

Do you desire a civilised conversation about the web article you referred to, or do you simply wish to vent your spleen? If the latter, then, regrettably, there is no more to be said.

And yes, I was both a husband and father long before I became a Muslim. What is the relevance here?

Would you prefer a discussion about why I am no longer a Christian. Rest assured, in such discussion I would not need to mention Islam at all. Your call.

Peace.

I personally do not see us going any further with the attitude you have towards me. I presented a website that includes much history about Mohammed who was the founding father of Islam.

Doug Grauman who researched his article used history, dates and passages straight from the Quran that Mohammed wrote himself that all Muslims use. I can only assume that you did not read the full article and if I am wrong I apologize.
​

In your post # 41 you talked about a Biblical Unitarian, but there is no such thing as a Biblical Unitarian, but that is another topic as anyone can look up their twisted beliefs. This is part of what you said and I quote you, "A little over forty years ago – just before I became a culture missionary to the English in Yorkshire – I had an older friend who was a Biblical Unitarian (I was then a Catholic, having been raised as a Baptist). We discussed (often) both the trinity and incarnation. On one occasion I became angry with him (I was fiery in those days!). I grabbed my Bible and thrust it under his nose. ‘This is my Book’, I hissed. ‘What’s yours? ’He smiled, and gently removed the book from my hand. ‘This!’, he replied. I was stunned. How could this man read the very same book as I, and yet reach conclusions so opposed to my own? He was no fool; neither was he perverse. He was both genuine and honest; a decent man who lived his faith according to his conscience. And yet, he did not, could not, believe what I believed."

I can say the same to you that I am stunned as you studied from the same book as I, but yet turned away from it to follow yet another religion as you said you were raised a Baptist then became a Catholic and then a Muslim. If the Muslim thing ends up not working out for you, where will you turn to next.

What I believe in is the one and only true God Almighty creator of heaven and Earth and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ who was before the foundation of the world. I believe in the Trinity/Deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus was the word of God come in the flesh of man to not only teach us His commandments, but to also lay down His own life and in three days God raised Him from the dead as He sits at the right hand of the Father. All who believe in Him will have life eternal with Him in paradise that will be found in the New Jerusalem.

I feel no need to search out the 5000 different religions in the world as Christ has revealed Himself to me as well as many others. It's all about having a personal relationship with Him as we allow God's Holy Spirit to teach us in all truths. I gave a comparison between Mohammed and Jesus in post #7. If you want to choose the teachings of Mohammed who wrote the Quran you are more then welcome to do so.

If you came to this forum to convert others that is no going to happen, If you came here seeking truth and fellowship then you must be opened to receive truth by the Holy Spirit teaching you in what you question. I pray for your journey and may God bless you along the way, but unfortunately I can not see us having a healthy discussion on Islamism so I will bow out for now.