James 2: Claiming Salvation without works

[Free]

Any further off-topic discussion will result in removal from this discussion.

 

[WIP]

As I understand it from my years in the Catholic church, in the Catholic tradition, works are something that we must do to gain favor with God. But I don't believe this is what James is teaching. I believe James is saying that our works would be the outpouring of our faith. In other words, our faith produces good works and our faith is evident by our good works. This is very clear in James 2:18 NKJV where he wrote,

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This is also what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works, not to earn salvation but rather to be an expression of our faith and love for our Lord.

 

[donadams]

As I understand it from my years in the Catholic church, in the Catholic tradition, works are something that we must do to gain favor with God. But I don't believe this is what James is teaching. I believe James is saying that our works would be the outpouring of our faith. In other words, our faith produces good works and our faith is evident by our good works. This is very clear in James 2:18 NKJV where he wrote,

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

This is also what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are created to do good works, not to earn salvation but rather to be an expression of our faith and love for our Lord.

The supernatural works in the Christian Life!

Living members of Christ in His new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, then we must abide in Christ by prayer, fasting, alms, mass & sacraments, and the practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ, (matt 11:29) (1 cor 13:13) abiding in Christ (Jn 15:5) keeping ourselves in the love of God, (Jude 1:21) and enduring to the end (Matt 10:22)

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.

 

[Free]

i read it
1) eph 2:8 is past tense

Bingo. We are saved (justified)--past tense. In fact, everywhere "justified" or "justification" is used, it is past tense, contrary, it would seem, to the CC's teaching. Only sanctification is spoken of as an ongoing process and glorification as the yet to come.

and does not refer to our act of faith for salvation but refers to the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us! "not of yourselves"

Exactly, except that we appropriate it by faith, not works. Hence, justification by grace, alone through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

2) we are living members of Christ as adults by faith and baptism mk 16:16 acts 8:30-38

3) there are many kinds of work's causing much confusion
"works of the law"
"natural works"
"supernatural works of the christian life"

natural works are done apart from Christ and His lifecof grace!

supernatural works are those of the Living members of Christ in His new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, then we must abide in Christ by prayer, fasting, alms, mass & sacraments, and the practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ, (matt 11:29) (1 cor 13:13) abiding in Christ (Jn 15:5) keeping ourselves in the love of God, (Jude 1:21) and enduring to the end (Matt 10:22)

Which has nothing to do with justification, except that one cannot do those things unless they are already justified (saved).

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.

Except that we already know from Eph. 2:8 that we are saved, past tense, remember? Do you really think that someone who is not already justified, who denies Christ, but "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality," is going to get eternal life?

4) scripture once says faith alone! James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I've dealt with this at least twice in recent discussion. The idea that justification is by faith alone, as opposed to works, is throughout the NT. That it is more or less mentioned the one time in James 2 is not relevant.

1 cor 13:2 even all
faith without charity avails nothing 1 cor 13:13 three things (not faith alone) are eternal faith, hope, & Charity
greatest would be faith is the doctrine of "faith alone" was true but the greatest is charity!

The supernatural virtues are gifts of God!

The virtues of Faith, Hope, and Charity have God as their direct object.

By Faith we know God!

By Hope we trust His goodness and promises!

By Charity we love God!

The three theological & supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope, & Charity are infused into the soul at baptism, the mediator of the covenant provides for the necessities of the members of the covenant, in the communion of saints.

thks

I have no idea how this is relevant.

 

[donadams]

Bingo. We are saved (justified)--past tense. In fact, everywhere "justified" or "justification" is used, it is past tense, contrary, it would seem, to the CC's teaching. Only sanctification is spoken of as an ongoing process and glorification as the yet to come.


Exactly, except that we appropriate it by faith, not works. Hence, justification by grace, alone through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)


Which has nothing to do with justification, except that one cannot do those things unless they are already justified (saved).


Except that we already know from Eph. 2:8 that we are saved, past tense, remember? Do you really think that someone who is not already justified, who denies Christ, but "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality," is going to get eternal life?


I've dealt with this at least twice in recent discussion. The idea that justification is by faith alone, as opposed to works, is throughout the NT. That it is more or less mentioned the one time in James 2 is not relevant.


I have no idea how this is relevant.

1 cor 13 makes the doctrine of faith alone impossible!
as does mk 16:16

The Christian life ends with salvation, it does not start with salvation!

Rom 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 pet 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

matt 10:22 endures to the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

thks

 

[Free]

1 cor 13 makes the doctrine of faith alone impossible!
as does mk 16:16

The Christian life ends with salvation, it does not start with salvation!

Rom 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 pet 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

matt 10:22 endures to the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

thks

How is any of this relevant to the discussion? How does any of this address my points? You have yet to show you even understand what "justified" means in a given context, all the while ignoring the clear statements by Paul that we are never, ever justified by works, not even righteous ones. It is always by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[donadams]

How is any of this relevant to the discussion? How does any of this address my points? You have yet to show you even understand what "justified" means in a given context, all the while ignoring the clear statements by Paul that we are never, ever justified by works, not even righteous ones. It is always by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

the free gift of grace and faith hope and charity are received in the sacrament of baptism .

thks

 

[Free]

the free gift of grace and faith hope and charity are received in the sacrament of baptism .

First, where is that in the Bible? Second, this doesn't address my post that you quoted.

 

[donadams]

First, where is that in the Bible? Second, this doesn't address my post that you quoted.

why do you think it needs to be in scripture to be true?

 

[donadams]

if there is nothing we can do why would we receive praise?

 

[Free]

why do you think it needs to be in scripture to be true?

While something doesn't need to be in Scripture in order to be true, if it contradicts Scripture it cannot be true. If something as important as what you stated isn't in Scripture and contradicts is, then it isn't from God.

if there is nothing we can do why would we receive praise?

I don't understand what you're asking.

This is what this discussion comes down to: a proper understanding of justification within a given context. James is not speaking of being saved by works but works being evidence of having already been saved (justified). This is in complete agreement with Paul who unequivocally states that we are justified by God's grace as a gift, not as a result of even one single work, that is to be received by faith. It is faith in Christ and his work, by believing "in his name," alone that saves.

 

[donadams]

While something doesn't need to be in Scripture in order to be true, if it contradicts Scripture it cannot be true. If something as important as what you stated isn't in Scripture and contradicts is, then it isn't from God.


I don't understand what you're asking.

This is what this discussion comes down to: a proper understanding of justification within a given context. James is not speaking of being saved by works but works being evidence of having already been saved (justified). This is in complete agreement with Paul who unequivocally states that we are justified by God's grace as a gift, not as a result of even one single work, that is to be received by faith. It is faith in Christ and his work, by believing "in his name," alone that saves.

then we should not be praised by God? correct?

 

[donadams]

While something doesn't need to be in Scripture in order to be true, if it contradicts Scripture it cannot be true. If something as important as what you stated isn't in Scripture and contradicts is, then it isn't from God.


I don't understand what you're asking.

This is what this discussion comes down to: a proper understanding of justification within a given context. James is not speaking of being saved by works but works being evidence of having already been saved (justified). This is in complete agreement with Paul who unequivocally states that we are justified by God's grace as a gift, not as a result of even one single work, that is to be received by faith. It is faith in Christ and his work, by believing "in his name," alone that saves.

why does God put requirements on the receiption of His Gifts?

matt 5:7 blessed are the merciful, they shall obtain mercy.

matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors

1 pet 5:5
...for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

thks

 

[donadams]

While something doesn't need to be in Scripture in order to be true, if it contradicts Scripture it cannot be true. If something as important as what you stated isn't in Scripture and contradicts is, then it isn't from God.


I don't understand what you're asking.

This is what this discussion comes down to: a proper understanding of justification within a given context. James is not speaking of being saved by works but works being evidence of having already been saved (justified). This is in complete agreement with Paul who unequivocally states that we are justified by God's grace as a gift, not as a result of even one single work, that is to be received by faith. It is faith in Christ and his work, by believing "in his name," alone that saves.

is "faith alone" the same as poor in spirit?

matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

or is the kingdom of heaven different from eternal life?

 

[donadams]

While something doesn't need to be in Scripture in order to be true, if it contradicts Scripture it cannot be true. If something as important as what you stated isn't in Scripture and contradicts is, then it isn't from God.


I don't understand what you're asking.

This is what this discussion comes down to: a proper understanding of justification within a given context. James is not speaking of being saved by works but works being evidence of having already been saved (justified). This is in complete agreement with Paul who unequivocally states that we are justified by God's grace as a gift, not as a result of even one single work, that is to be received by faith. It is faith in Christ and his work, by believing "in his name," alone that saves.

please explain 1 cor 13:2 & 13:13

thks

btw is suffering necessarily for salvation?

 

[Free]

then we should not be praised by God? correct?

why does God put requirements on the receiption of His Gifts?

matt 5:7 blessed are the merciful, they shall obtain mercy.

matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors

1 pet 5:5
...for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

thks

please explain 1 cor 13:2 & 13:13

thks

btw is suffering necessarily for salvation?

What does any of this have to do with the discussion, which is James's use of "justified" in relation to works?

is "faith alone" the same as poor in spirit?

matt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

No, why would it be?

or is the kingdom of heaven different from eternal life?

No.

 

[donadams]

What does any of this have to do with the discussion, which is James's use of "justified" in relation to works?


No, why would it be?


No.

then why do the poor in spirit have salvation?

rev 2:13 Antipass was praised as the faithful martyr

are martyrs saved by faith alone, or by dying for Christ?

if faith alone, why praise?

faith alone is dead, must bear fruit
or be cast into the fire! Jn 15:6

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"faith alone" is dead and cannot save!

works are the life of faith!

1 pet 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

can you explain these?

thks

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[Free]

then why do the poor in spirit have salvation?

rev 2:13 Antipass was praised as the faithful martyr

are martyrs saved by faith alone, or by dying for Christ?

if faith alone, why praise?

faith alone is dead, must bear fruit
or be cast into the fire! Jn 15:6

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"faith alone" is dead and cannot save!

works are the life of faith!

1 pet 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

can you explain these?

thks

Why are you still going on about the straw man you have set up regarding "faith alone"? You have yet to show you understand what this discussion is even about. I don't understand what most of those verses have to do with this discussion, so I don't even know what you want me to explain.

As for James, as has been said many times, all he is talking about is that works are evidence of having already been justified (saved). What he is not saying is that works save (justify) a person. Otherwise he would be in direct contradiction with Paul. Works are a part of the process of sanctification, so in that sense they bring about the completion (or perfection) of one's faith.

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Matthew 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

I don't know why you posted these.

 

[donadams]

Why are you still going on about the straw man you have set up regarding "faith alone"? You have yet to show you understand what this discussion is even about. I don't understand what most of those verses have to do with this discussion, so I don't even know what you want me to explain.

As for James, as has been said many times, all he is talking about is that works are evidence of having already been justified (saved). What he is not saying is that works save (justify) a person. Otherwise he would be in direct contradiction with Paul. Works are a part of the process of sanctification, so in that sense they bring about the completion (or perfection) of one's faith.


I don't know why you posted these.

how can it be by faith alone?

faith and baptism are biblical

Jn 3:5 cannot enter
2 pet 1:11 an entrance shall be administered unto you.

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

thks

 

[Free]

how can it be by faith alone?

faith and baptism are biblical

Jn 3:5 cannot enter
2 pet 1:11 an entrance shall be administered unto you.

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Rev 1:5 washed in His blood
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone

thks

Until you show you understand what "justification" means in a given context and actually understand what is meant by "faith alone" (it's been defined more than once), and stop setting up your straw man version, I see no point in continuing this discussion.