Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus' promise to the thief: "Today you will be with me in paradise"

[Alfred Persson]

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

Jehovah's Witnesses claim the comma should be placed after "today" to show Jesus promised the Thief "you will be with me in my future Messianic Kingdom" and not "today you will be with me in the paradise for departed souls in heaven". Although the vast majority of English Translations put the comma before "today", Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are biased towards traditional Christian beliefs about the afterlife.

Many Christians believe "Paradise" is in "third heaven", it’s a place where the righteous go after physical death to await the resurrection. Paul's words corroborate this concept:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:1-4 NKJ)

In the Jewish Talmud "Paradise" is called "Gan-Eden" and its location is in heaven:

Gan Eden n. Hebrew (GAHN AYE-den) Literally, “Garden of Eden.” 1. The place on Earth where Adam and Eve resided. 2. Paradise; the place of spiritual reward for the souls of the righteous.- The JPS Dictionary of Jewish words (p. 48). Jewish Publication Society.

The popular conception of paradise is expressed by the term “Gan ‘Eden,” in contradistinction to “Gehinnom” = “hell.” Jewish authorities are almost unanimous in maintaining that there is a terrestrial as well as a celestial Gan ‘Eden; that the Garden of Eden in Genesis is a model in miniature of the higher Gan ‘Eden called paradise.-the Jewish Encyclopedia, (Vol. 9, pp. 515–516). Funk & Wagnalls.

Jehovah's Witnesses deny any conscious existence of souls after death and claim "Paradise" is a future earthly paradise Christ will establish in the future.

Does placement of the comma change the meaning of Christ's promise?

Although the Jehovah's Witnesses are right to interpret "kingdom" as the Messianic Kingdom Jesus would one day head, JESUS changed the subject from His Messianic "kingdom" to "paradise", and He prefaced this change with an "Amen", saying "Assuredly I say to you" which He often does to discuss something that was unexpected, a "solemn truth".

The phrase "Assuredly I say to you" always indicates the "unexpected" was about to be revealed. We see that everywhere Jesus used the phrase:

BYZ Matt. 5:26 Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃς ἐκεῖθεν, ἕως ἂν ἀποδῷς τὸν ἔσχατον κοδράντην.
BYZ Matt. 26:34 Ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτί, πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Mk. 14:30 Καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτι σὺ σήμερον ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ταύτῃ, πρὶν ἢ δὶς ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Lk. 23:43 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
BYZ Jn. 3:3 Ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:5 Ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:11 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ὃ οἴδαμεν λαλοῦμεν, καὶ ὃ ἑωράκαμεν μαρτυροῦμεν· καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἡμῶν οὐ λαμβάνετε.
BYZ Jn. 13:38 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις; Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς.
BYZ Jn. 21:18 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτε ἦς νεώτερος, ἐζώννυες σεαυτόν, καὶ περιεπάτεις ὅπου ἤθελες· ὅταν δὲ γηράσῃς, ἐκτενεῖς τὰς χεῖράς σου, καὶ ἄλλος σε ζώσει, καὶ οἴσει ὅπου οὐ θέλεις.

For those who don't read Greek, below is every instance where Jesus said "Assuredly I say to you". Notice how the phrase indicates something unexpected will be revealed, in every occurrence:

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

33 Peter answered and said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble."
34 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matt. 26:33-34 NKJ)

29 Peter said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble, yet I will not be."
30 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." (Mk. 14:29-30 NKJ)

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:39-43 NKJ)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Jn. 3:3-7 NKJ)

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (Jn. 3:9-12 NKJ)

37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. (Jn. 13:37-14:1 NKJ)

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
18 "Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."
19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me." (Jn. 21:17-19 NKJ)

Therefore, whether we put the comma before or after "Today", its still a promise to the Thief "today you will be with me in paradise".

Some object Christ's human soul descended into Hades when He died, so how could the thief be with Him in Paradise? The Son of God has two natures united to His Person, finite human and infinite divine. The Sphere of Infinite Radius that is God the Son in whom all things consist and have their being (Col. 1:16-17; Acts 17:28), was centered in the humanity of Jesus and therefore never ceased to be omnipresent in heaven/paradise even while He was incarnate in human flesh on earth (John 3:13).

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

Therefore, Jesus could be with the Thief in Paradise that very day after both died, at the same time His human soul was quickened by the Holy Spirit and in His strength He went and preached to the "spirits in prison" in Sheol/Hades (1 Peter 3:18-19; Acts 2:27).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Alfred Persson,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)
Jehovah's Witnesses claim the comma should be placed after "today" to show Jesus promised the Thief "you will be with me in my future Messianic Kingdom" and not "today you will be with me in the paradise for departed souls in heaven". Although the vast majority of English Translations put the comma before "today", Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are biased towards traditional Christian beliefs about the afterlife.

I am not here to defend the JW beliefs because they are wrong on many items, and possibly wrong with some features of this Scripture, but I endorse moving the comma, which then makes sense of the whole passage:
Luke 23:32–43 (KJV): 32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. 35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. 36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, 37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Comma moved in verse 43.

The thief asked to be remembered when Jesus returns to establish his future Kingdom. Jesus reassures the thief that he will not have to wait until then to have the answer, but he can have the reassurance now, that the thief will not only be remembered, but will be raised from the dead and given a place in that future Kingdom, when the figurative Garden of Eden, Paradise will be restored. On the day of their crucifixion, both Jesus and the thief died. Jesus was laid in the tomb, and was dead for three days, then raised. But the thief's next waking moment will be when he is received into the future Kingdom of God upon the earth, having been given the reassurance that he will be accepted at that time. The thief showed greater faith than most of his contemporaries, including the Apostles.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josef]

Hey All,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

"Jehovah's Witnesses claim the comma should be placed after "today" to show Jesus promised the Thief "you will be with me in my future Messianic Kingdom" and not "today you will be with me in the paradise for departed souls in heaven". Although the vast majority of English Translations put the comma before "today", Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are biased towards traditional Christian beliefs about the afterlife." Quote from Alfred Persson

Here is how you know what people like Jehovah's Witnesses are incorrect either knowingly, or by plain ignorance. Commas did not exist in the Greek language during biblical times. So anybody arguing correct placement of a comma, that did not exist, is automatically incorrect in their interpretation. JWs here been taught on what to say about Jesus and the thief on the cross. So they are regurgitating what they have been fed by JW training. Error begets error.

So now you know how to respond should you hear this fallacy.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Josef,

Here is how you know what people like Jehovah's Witnesses are incorrect either knowingly, or by plain ignorance. Commas did not exist in the Greek language during biblical times. So anybody arguing correct placement of a comma, that did not exist, is automatically incorrect in their interpretation. JWs here been taught on what to say about Jesus and the thief on the cross. So they are regurgitating what they have been fed by JW training. Error begets error.

So now you know how to respond should you hear this fallacy.

Comma, or no comma, I read Jesus' reply as a direct answer to the thief's request to be remembered when Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom. Take the comma out, and give emphasis to "I say unto you TODAY" - "you will be with me in Paradise". I suggest that it is more a matter of theology than commas, and I utterly reject the concept that Jesus was talking about some special place in Sheol called "Paradise". Where is the thief now? David is not in heaven now. I find that everyone has to spin a real tale to bypass this simple clear example of the resurrection and the Kingdom.

And btw, if you want someone who can pull the Greek apart regarding "today", then Ethelbert W Bullinger has a go at this in his Companion Bible, but I am uncertain if he is correct. I am not sure if Bullinger believed in immortal souls. I find Bullinger useful on some things, but reticent to quote him as an authority.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings Alfred Persson,

I am not here to defend the JW beliefs because they are wrong on many items, and possibly wrong with some features of this Scripture, but I endorse moving the comma, which then makes sense of the whole passage:
Luke 23:32–43 (KJV): 32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. 33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. 35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. 36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, 37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. 38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Comma moved in verse 43.

The thief asked to be remembered when Jesus returns to establish his future Kingdom. Jesus reassures the thief that he will not have to wait until then to have the answer, but he can have the reassurance now, that the thief will not only be remembered, but will be raised from the dead and given a place in that future Kingdom, when the figurative Garden of Eden, Paradise will be restored. On the day of their crucifixion, both Jesus and the thief died. Jesus was laid in the tomb, and was dead for three days, then raised. But the thief's next waking moment will be when he is received into the future Kingdom of God upon the earth, having been given the reassurance that he will be accepted at that time. The thief showed greater faith than most of his contemporaries, including the Apostles.

Kind regards
Trevor

I cited examples of scripture, where the comma is right where it should be. Didn't you read them?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I cited examples of scripture, where the comma is right where it should be. Didn't you read them?

I noticed quite a few convoluted arguments, and my assessment of these is that you are attempting to avoid what the narrative states simply and clearly. Nice try, but you did not convince me, and I doubt many others will endorse all of what you have given, even if they agree with your three or four wrong, strange doctrines (in my opinion) that you are trying to substantiate.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I noticed quite a few convoluted arguments, and my assessment of these is that you are attempting to avoid what the narrative states simply and clearly. Nice try, but you did not convince me, and I doubt many others will endorse all of what you have given, even if they agree with your three or four wrong, strange doctrines (in my opinion) that you are trying to substantiate.

Kind regards
Trevor

Parallel scriptures are not "convoluted arguments", they are facts. Your assessment ignores the facts. Try again. Cite the examples and detail why they don't make the point I made.

That would be a try. Right now, your opinions fly in the face of facts. And the strange doctrines might be strange only to you, because you do NOT base your ideas on facts.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Parallel scriptures are not "convoluted arguments", they are facts. Your assessment ignores the facts. Try again. Cite the examples and detail why they don't make the point I made.

That would be a try. Right now, your opinions fly in the face of facts. And the strange doctrines might be strange only to you, because you do NOT base your ideas on facts.

I am quite content with my simple explanation based upon the context and correct doctrine. Not sure that I want to spend more time to unravel all that you have said, and need to go elsewhere now.

I will reread and try to unravel later, but your concepts are based on immortal souls, Jesus being in two other places at once when he was dead and in the tomb, and exactly what or where is "Paradise" is obscure, and is the thief still there or now in heaven. All I can say, what a mess. I will have another look at what Bullinger states, but I have seen that contested by someone who claimed to know Greek.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

I am quite content with my simple explanation based upon the context and correct doctrine. Not sure that I want to spend more time to unravel all that you have said, and need to go elsewhere now.

I will reread and try to unravel later, but your concepts are based on immortal souls, Jesus being in two other places at once when he was dead and in the tomb, and exactly what or where is "Paradise" is obscure, and is the thief still there or now in heaven. All I can say, what a mess. I will have another look at what Bullinger states, but I have seen that contested by someone who claimed to know Greek.

Kind regards
Trevor

Why would you want to prove by the scriptures what I argued isn't correct?

Don't know.

But if it were me, I would take the time to disprove an opposing view to my own. That's why I post in response to others, if I don't just "like" their post.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Why would you want to prove by the scriptures what I argued isn't correct?

Don't know.

But if it were me, I would take the time to disprove an opposing view to my own. That's why I post in response to others, if I don't just "like" their post.

The Scripture didn't identify who that "man in Christ” was. Even if third heaven and paradise are the same place, most believe that Paul was writing out of his own experience, he was not referring to the thief or Jesus, it's not associated with Lk. 23:43, and it doesn't prove that either the thief or Jesus went there on the day of crucifixion.

 

[Josef]

Greetings Josef,

Comma, or no comma, I read Jesus' reply as a direct answer to the thief's request to be remembered when Jesus returns to establish His Kingdom. Take the comma out, and give emphasis to "I say unto you TODAY" - "you will be with me in Paradise". I suggest that it is more a matter of theology than commas, and I utterly reject the concept that Jesus was talking about some special place in Sheol called "Paradise". Where is the thief now? David is not in heaven now. I find that everyone has to spin a real tale to bypass this simple clear example of the resurrection and the Kingdom.

And btw, if you want someone who can pull the Greek apart regarding "today", then Ethelbert W Bullinger has a go at this in his Companion Bible, but I am uncertain if he is correct. I am not sure if Bullinger believed in immortal souls. I find Bullinger useful on some things, but reticent to quote him as an authority.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hey All,
You cannot give it emphasis by capitalizing letters either Trevor.

"All of the Greek New Testament originals were written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS with no spaces and probably no punctuation, and all of the earlier manuscripts are in this style, whether on parchment or papyrus."
https://www.licoc.org › bible-studies

So in the original Greek writings, the emphasis you, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, suggest is not there. By adding emphasis, the JWs are trying to purposefully change the meaning.
Could it be that the JWs are purposefully being deceptive?
Why?
Why is it so hard to believe what Jesus said?
Does it change anything if the thief really was with Jesus in paradise that day?
Yeah it does.
It changes who Jesus is, doesn't it?
It gives Jesus the power over life and death.
A power only God posseses.
If Jesus has this power, He has to be God.
No other explanation will suffice.
And oh by the way:

John 2:18-22 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said He had this power.


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Why would you want to prove by the scriptures what I argued isn't correct? Don't know.
But if it were me, I would take the time to disprove an opposing view to my own. That's why I post in response to others, if I don't just "like" their post.

Instead of answering each of your statements, I decided to do my own basic research and also ask a few questions.

I decided to go back to scratch and look at the various translations that I have available in my electronic Bible program, and I was disappointed when I found that ALL of them, more or less, have the comma before “Today”. I consulted KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV, NLT, CSB, NKJB, HCSB, LEB, NET, NAB, NCV, CEV, ASV, GNB, MSG, Darby, TNIV, Wuest NT. I did not refer to a print copy of any these, and I do not know if any have a possible alternative in a margin note.

The NET Bible had study note 103, and I thought that this could have discussed the possibility of a variation. Instead it has the following, sn103: Jesus gives more than the criminal asked for, because the blessing will come today, not in the future. He will be among the righteous.

I was slightly amused at the MSG: He said, “Don’t worry I will, today you will join me in paradise”. I am not sure of this particular translation. Are they suggesting that Jesus misunderstood his question? But in the process, is “Don’t worry I will” essentially the same meaning as “Verily I say unto thee” or “Truly I say unto you”, and is Jesus thus affirming the question concerning the future Kingdom? Hence in my opinion, the comma IS in the wrong place.

In partial frustration, I then turned to a few of my print Bibles, not covered by my electronic Bibles. William Barclay did not help, the NIV Study Bible has a note, “paradise refers to the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection.” So my question here, does this destroy the concept that immortal souls go to heaven or hell at death? The Jerusalem Bible has “Jesus,’ he said ‘remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ “Indeed, I promise you,’ he replied ‘today you will be with me in paradise.’ The New Jerusalem Bible is much the same but with some different wording. I have also a Harper RSV Study Bible and it has the note: “Paradise came to be used in the Septuagint translation as a term for the Garden of Eden, and in the intertestamental period for a superterrestrial place of blessedness. As it is used here it can mean only heaven or the presence of God.” The Jewish view reminds me of Tevye’s Dream in the Fiddler on the Roof. Now these Study Bibles are getting closer to being Commentaries, and I decided not to look at these.

My questions now are:
Where is Paradise located?
Was the Thief in Paradise with Jesus on that day?
Is the Thief still in Paradise and has Jesus moved on?
Do immortal souls go to heaven of hell at death? (as is commonly stated at gravesides, for example: "she is looking down at us now").

Rotherham gave me some comfort and he has the following: “v42 And he went on to say-Jesus remember me whensoever thou shalt come into thy kingdom. v43 And he said unto him-Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise”.

The above should be sufficient for starters, partly due to time restraints.
Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Josef,

You cannot give it emphasis by capitalizing letters either Trevor.

I realise that, but I genuinely believe that it is a direct answer to the thief, referring to the time, rather than an independent statement. I was not going to quote Bullinger, but he says the following:
"I say unto thee, To day = I say unto thee to day". To day. Connect this with "I say", to emphasise the solemnity of the occasion; not with "shalt thou be".

Hence both Rotherham and Bullinger give some agreement with my position, or allow my position.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[eddif]

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

Jehovah's Witnesses claim the comma should be placed after "today" to show Jesus promised the Thief "you will be with me in my future Messianic Kingdom" and not "today you will be with me in the paradise for departed souls in heaven". Although the vast majority of English Translations put the comma before "today", Jehovah's Witnesses claim they are biased towards traditional Christian beliefs about the afterlife.

Many Christians believe "Paradise" is in "third heaven", it’s a place where the righteous go after physical death to await the resurrection. Paul's words corroborate this concept:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:1-4 NKJ)

In the Jewish Talmud "Paradise" is called "Gan-Eden" and its location is in heaven:

Gan Eden n. Hebrew (GAHN AYE-den) Literally, “Garden of Eden.” 1. The place on Earth where Adam and Eve resided. 2. Paradise; the place of spiritual reward for the souls of the righteous.- The JPS Dictionary of Jewish words (p. 48). Jewish Publication Society.

The popular conception of paradise is expressed by the term “Gan ‘Eden,” in contradistinction to “Gehinnom” = “hell.” Jewish authorities are almost unanimous in maintaining that there is a terrestrial as well as a celestial Gan ‘Eden; that the Garden of Eden in Genesis is a model in miniature of the higher Gan ‘Eden called paradise.-the Jewish Encyclopedia, (Vol. 9, pp. 515–516). Funk & Wagnalls.

Jehovah's Witnesses deny any conscious existence of souls after death and claim "Paradise" is a future earthly paradise Christ will establish in the future.

Does placement of the comma change the meaning of Christ's promise?

Although the Jehovah's Witnesses are right to interpret "kingdom" as the Messianic Kingdom Jesus would one day head, JESUS changed the subject from His Messianic "kingdom" to "paradise", and He prefaced this change with an "Amen", saying "Assuredly I say to you" which He often does to discuss something that was unexpected, a "solemn truth".

The phrase "Assuredly I say to you" always indicates the "unexpected" was about to be revealed. We see that everywhere Jesus used the phrase:

BYZ Matt. 5:26 Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃς ἐκεῖθεν, ἕως ἂν ἀποδῷς τὸν ἔσχατον κοδράντην.
BYZ Matt. 26:34 Ἔφη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ νυκτί, πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Mk. 14:30 Καὶ λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτι σὺ σήμερον ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ταύτῃ, πρὶν ἢ δὶς ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι, τρὶς ἀπαρνήσῃ με.
BYZ Lk. 23:43 Καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
BYZ Jn. 3:3 Ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:5 Ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ.
BYZ Jn. 3:11 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι ὅτι ὃ οἴδαμεν λαλοῦμεν, καὶ ὃ ἑωράκαμεν μαρτυροῦμεν· καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἡμῶν οὐ λαμβάνετε.
BYZ Jn. 13:38 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις; Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς.
BYZ Jn. 21:18 Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ὅτε ἦς νεώτερος, ἐζώννυες σεαυτόν, καὶ περιεπάτεις ὅπου ἤθελες· ὅταν δὲ γηράσῃς, ἐκτενεῖς τὰς χεῖράς σου, καὶ ἄλλος σε ζώσει, καὶ οἴσει ὅπου οὐ θέλεις.

For those who don't read Greek, below is every instance where Jesus said "Assuredly I say to you". Notice how the phrase indicates something unexpected will be revealed, in every occurrence:

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

33 Peter answered and said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble."
34 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matt. 26:33-34 NKJ)

29 Peter said to Him, "Even if all are made to stumble, yet I will not be."
30 Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." (Mk. 14:29-30 NKJ)

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:39-43 NKJ)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Jn. 3:3-7 NKJ)

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (Jn. 3:9-12 NKJ)

37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. (Jn. 13:37-14:1 NKJ)

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
18 "Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."
19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me." (Jn. 21:17-19 NKJ)

Therefore, whether we put the comma before or after "Today", its still a promise to the Thief "today you will be with me in paradise".

Some object Christ's human soul descended into Hades when He died, so how could the thief be with Him in Paradise? The Son of God has two natures united to His Person, finite human and infinite divine. The Sphere of Infinite Radius that is God the Son in whom all things consist and have their being (Col. 1:16-17; Acts 17:28), was centered in the humanity of Jesus and therefore never ceased to be omnipresent in heaven/paradise even while He was incarnate in human flesh on earth (John 3:13).

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. (Jn. 3:13 NKJ)

Therefore, Jesus could be with the Thief in Paradise that very day after both died, at the same time His human soul was quickened by the Holy Spirit and in His strength He went and preached to the "spirits in prison" in Sheol/Hades (1 Peter 3:18-19; Acts 2:27).

I guess My redneck thinking is slow?

Jesus was going into the grave, and so was the thief.

The only good place in the grave (?) is Abraham’s bosom. A place of comfort for Lazarus and others. Lazarus was in a place of being comforted.
Eden was gone, the promised land went belly up, the resurrection and heaven is in the future (?).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

I guess My redneck thinking is slow?

Jesus was going into the grave, and so was the thief.

The only good place in the grave (?) is Abraham’s bosom. A place of comfort for Lazarus and others. Lazarus was in a place of being comforted.
Eden was gone, the promised land went belly up, the resurrection and heaven is in the future (?).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Jesus is God the Son; His Person subsists in two natures, infinite Divine, finite human.

The finite human soul of Jesus went to hades/sheol when His body died; the infinite God the Son never ceased to be everywhere, including "paradise in third heaven".

Jesus is One Person subsisting simultaneously in two natures. He was NOT split into two Jesus' when this happened.

If He had ceased to be Omnipresent Deity while on earth, everything existing would have dissolved into nothing:

16 For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things are held together. (Col. 1:16-17 RPTE)

27 that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
28 'For in him we live, and move, and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring.' (Acts 17:27-28 RPTE)

Electromagnetism is a good analogy to how all things are held together by the infinite Mind and Power of God the Son:

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

Instead of answering each of your statements, I decided to do my own basic research and also ask a few questions.

I decided to go back to scratch and look at the various translations that I have available in my electronic Bible program, and I was disappointed when I found that ALL of them, more or less, have the comma before “Today”. I consulted KJV, ESV, NASB, NIV, NLT, CSB, NKJB, HCSB, LEB, NET, NAB, NCV, CEV, ASV, GNB, MSG, Darby, TNIV, Wuest NT. I did not refer to a print copy of any these, and I do not know if any have a possible alternative in a margin note.

The NET Bible had study note 103, and I thought that this could have discussed the possibility of a variation. Instead it has the following, sn103: Jesus gives more than the criminal asked for, because the blessing will come today, not in the future. He will be among the righteous.

I was slightly amused at the MSG: He said, “Don’t worry I will, today you will join me in paradise”. I am not sure of this particular translation. Are they suggesting that Jesus misunderstood his question? But in the process, is “Don’t worry I will” essentially the same meaning as “Verily I say unto thee” or “Truly I say unto you”, and is Jesus thus affirming the question concerning the future Kingdom? Hence in my opinion, the comma IS in the wrong place.

In partial frustration, I then turned to a few of my print Bibles, not covered by my electronic Bibles. William Barclay did not help, the NIV Study Bible has a note, “paradise refers to the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection.” So my question here, does this destroy the concept that immortal souls go to heaven or hell at death? The Jerusalem Bible has “Jesus,’ he said ‘remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ “Indeed, I promise you,’ he replied ‘today you will be with me in paradise.’ The New Jerusalem Bible is much the same but with some different wording. I have also a Harper RSV Study Bible and it has the note: “Paradise came to be used in the Septuagint translation as a term for the Garden of Eden, and in the intertestamental period for a superterrestrial place of blessedness. As it is used here it can mean only heaven or the presence of God.” The Jewish view reminds me of Tevye’s Dream in the Fiddler on the Roof. Now these Study Bibles are getting closer to being Commentaries, and I decided not to look at these.

My questions now are:
Where is Paradise located?
Was the Thief in Paradise with Jesus on that day?
Is the Thief still in Paradise and has Jesus moved on?
Do immortal souls go to heaven of hell at death? (as is commonly stated at gravesides, for example: "she is looking down at us now").

Rotherham gave me some comfort and he has the following: “v42 And he went on to say-Jesus remember me whensoever thou shalt come into thy kingdom. v43 And he said unto him-Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise”.

The above should be sufficient for starters, partly due to time restraints.
Kind regards
Trevor

I told you all but Rotherham had the comma before today. But reading it in context, realizing both Jesus and the Thief would die in a few hours, it "naturally, organically" means "today you will be with me in paradise"

39 And, one of the suspended evil-doers, began to defame him--Art not, thou, the Christ? Save thyself and us!
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, and said--Neither fearest, thou, God, in that thou art, in the same judgment?
41 And, we, indeed, justly,--for, things worthy of what we have done, are we duly receiving, but, this man, nothing amiss, hath done.
42 And he went on to say--Jesus! remember me, whensoever thou shalt come into thy kingdom.
43 And he said unto him--Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise.
44 And it was already about the sixth hour, and, darkness, came upon the whole land, until the ninth hour,--
45 the sun failing; and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And, calling out with a loud voice, Jesus said--Father! into thy hands, I commend my spirit. And, this, saying, he ceased to breathe. (Lk. 23:39-46 ROT)

The Thief was thinking of the Messianic Kingdom in the future, but Christ changed that to "paradise". It is confirmed by Christ's usage of "Verily I say unto thee", that this prefaced "something different" than what was expected. I gave all the occurrences to prove that point. I didn't cherry pick at all, ALL of them were cited. If that doesn't convince people, nothing will. Such don't care what the Bible says.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Alfred Persson,

The Thief was thinking of the Messianic Kingdom in the future, but Christ changed that to "paradise".

The Apostle Paul faced much the same situation as the thief when he was about to depart from this present world. Like the thief he anticipated suffering a violent death, as he was about to be "offered". Paul does not look forward to going to some nether world called "Paradise" where his immortal soul would be comforted and blessed until the return of Christ, and then the Judgement and the Kingdom. Rather Paul speaks directly about both the Judgement Seat and the Kingdom when Jesus returns. It is as if Paul's next conscious moments will be when these events occur.

2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Despite all that Paul had done, and what his faith was at that time, he still anticipated that he would have to line up at the Judgement Seat to receive his reward of everlasting life in the future Kingdom of God on earth. Behind him would be Timothy and many of us, some who love his appearing and others who were not really interested. We are encouraged by Paul's example and confidence that he will be accepted before the righteous Judge, but nevertheless we all need to face the Judgement Seat at the return of Jesus.

The Thief was thinking of the Messianic Kingdom in the future, but Christ changed that to "paradise". It is confirmed by Christ's usage of "Verily I say unto thee", that this prefaced "something different" than what was expected. I gave all the occurrences to prove that point. I didn't cherry pick at all, ALL of them were cited. If that doesn't convince people, nothing will. Such don't care what the Bible says.

Yes, the thief was thinking of the Kingdom and the Judgement Seat and I believe that Jesus gave him a simple, straight answer, then and there, that he would be approved and enter into the Kingdom, Paradise, the Garden restored. If you demand that Jesus must disclose something new, then it is not the change from the Kingdom to an immortal soul nether world, it is the fact that the thief will not have to line up behind Paul and in front of us at the Judgement Seat. He was given a Pass already, and he was comforted then and there that he would find his rest in the Kingdom, no anxious worry about his acceptability, no need to continue to plead and weep for all his past errors, but a quiet comfort looking forward to that blessed time.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

I think the main to consider is if Jesus ever said elsewhere, “I say to you today, …”. I couldn’t any instance. I suggest it’s because if he (or anyone else) was talking directly to someone, it makes no sense to say, “I say to today,” because it is obvious that he was speaking to them that day.

It makes the most sense grammatically to say, “I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.”

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Free,

I think the main to consider is if Jesus ever said elsewhere, “I say to you today, …”. I couldn’t any instance. I suggest it’s because if he (or anyone else) was talking directly to someone, it makes no sense to say, “I say to today,” because it is obvious that he was speaking to them that day.
It makes the most sense grammatically to say, “I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.”

Except the "today" part is in contrast and a direct answer to what the thief asked about being remembered when Jesus returns to Judge and then Establish His Kingdom. This does not make much sense to people who believe in immortal sou;ls and going to heaven when you die and they go to extraordinary lengths to avoid the obvious. Even all the translations mimic their error.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Free]

Greetings Free,

Except the "today" part is in contrast and a direct answer to what the thief asked about being remembered when Jesus returns to Judge and then Establish His Kingdom.

I agree. The thief was looking forward to the return of Jesus to be in his kingdom, but Jesus was telling him that that day, “today,” was the day he would be with Jesus, in paradise.

Does it ever make sense to talk to someone and say, “I say to you today…”? Is that ever used elsewhere in the Bible?

This does not make much sense to people who believe in immortal sou;ls and going to heaven when you die and they go to extraordinary lengths to avoid the obvious. Even all the translations mimic their error.

Kind regards
Trevor

Well, first, you are assuming what the thief believed about immortal souls. Second, even if he did believe in the immortality of the soul, should he believe any differently than even the disciples who were expecting a military victory to vanquish their enemies and establish the kingdom of God? Should Jesus not correct this false idea that that was imminent?