Jesus Ain't So Good ! So How Could He Be God?

[GodsGrace]

You seem to be having a conversation with me about something I never said nor agree with. Not sinning does not make someone God. What makes someone God is their inability to sin or be tempted by sin. That's not Jesus.

OK.
Now read what you wrote above carefully.
And then answer this:

DID JESUS EVER SIN?

IF you answer NO....

then you've just stated that Jesus is God

BECAUSE He never sinned and YOU stated above that only GOD is unable to sin.

That IS Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

DID JESUS EVER SIN?

IF you answer NO....

then you've just stated that Jesus is God

BECAUSE He never sinned and YOU stated above that only GOD is unable to sin.

That IS Jesus.

That doesn't follow. When Jesus was born he was sinless therefore all human children are born sinless. That doesn't make them God. Adam was sinless until he wasn't. That didn't make him God. What you're saying is unprecedented in Scripture.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You have offered nothing to support a claim that Satan has not fallen.

Luke 10:18 isn't saying that Jesus existed in the beginning and saw Satan fall. Indeed, there was a war in heaven in the beginning.

The first war is in Revelation 12:1-4 in which Satan "swept his tail" taking 1/3rd of the angels with him to earth.

So you believe it was Satan's choice to come to earth with 1/3 of the angels ?

 

[Runningman]

You have offered nothing to support a claim that Satan has not fallen.

So you believe it was Satan's choice to come to earth with 1/3 of the angels ?

In Revelation 12:7-9 Satan goes back to heaven after having taken 1/3rd of the angels with him. That means he wasn't expelled completely the first time. After Satan fights with Michael, he's hurled to earth. After he's hurled to earth is when he starts going on a rampage, for lack of a better word. By Revelation 13 the "Great Tribulation" is coming into motion because of this. I explained all of this clearly in post #54.

May I ask if you adhere to preterism or futurism?

 

[GodsGrace]

That doesn't follow. When Jesus was born he was sinless therefore all human children are born sinless. That doesn't make them God. Adam was sinless until he wasn't. That didn't make him God. What you're saying is unprecedented in Scripture.

When Jesus was born He was sinless.
Agreed.

All children are born with the sin nature and/or original sin.
However, they are not responsible personally for this sin.

Jesus did NOT have the sin nature and/or original sin when HE was born.
He was already God.

I don't make statements that don't agree with scripture.
You have to retract what you stated
OR
Admit that Jesus is God because He NEVER SINNED.

All men born of women SIN.
This is not difficult to understand.

One of the reason we can know that Jesus is God is because HE NEVER SINNED.
JUST LIKE GOD.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Jesus says that "there is none good but one, that is, God " and God alone.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So what was Jesus purposely telling us about Himself in this proclamation ?

John 6:37-40 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus repeatedly says he is not doing his will, but the Father's will! THIS is the whole point to Christ and the cross. He does the will of the Father........even unto

He reconciles what the ?, caused (enmity between God and man).

One of the reasons for enmity is people thinking they are good enough, but the Father always knows Best! Jesus directs ALL intentions back to that fact.

 

[Runningman]

All children are born with the sin nature and/or original sin.
However, they are not responsible personally for this sin.

Why do you believe they are born with a sin nature?

Jesus did NOT have the sin nature and/or original sin when HE was born.
He was already God.

Not according to scripture. Jesus was tempted to sin in every way, but chose not to sin. God cannot sin nor be tempted. That means Jesus is not God.

I don't make statements that don't agree with scripture.
You have to retract what you stated
OR
Admit that Jesus is God because He NEVER SINNED.

Adam wasn't a sinner at first and he wasn't God. It doesn't follow that being sinless makes someone God. You have to include anyone who hasn't sinned yet with being God.

All men born of women SIN.
This is not difficult to understand.

Jesus was born of a woman. Which one of God's laws do babies break?

One of the reason we can know that Jesus is God is because HE NEVER SINNED.
JUST LIKE GOD.

Does God choose not to sin or is it that God cannot sin?

 

[Consecrated Life]

In Revelation 12:7-9 Satan goes back to heaven after having taken 1/3rd of the angels with him. That means he wasn't expelled completely ,,,,,

That he has fallen and still remains our accuser with access to God are not mutually exclusive biblical concepts .
This can be seen as Lucifer, after his fall & name change , presents himself to God tagging along with a common group to accuse Job:

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

To suggest Satan's present access to God to accuse as it finds him tagging along with a group in Job, includes all his former exalted great status & access in heaven shows a profound lack of knowledge on your part.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and write off your sophomoric and quite clumsy attempt to confuse Satan's fall which happened prior to Adam's creation, to Satan's being brought down to hell which is yet to happen to this profound lack of knowledge you demonstrate rather then to a deliberate attempt to deceive .
"Falling" and being "brought " somewhere are two completely different things
Being Brought down to hell is going to be completely different experience for Satan than his fall to earth, which will seem like joy ride in comparison .

Isa 14:15
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

 

[Runningman]

That he has fallen and still remains our accuser with access to God are not mutually exclusive biblical concepts .
This can be seen as Lucifer, after his fall & name change , presents himself to God tagging along with a common group to accuse Job:

Job 1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Which is precisely my point. Satan still has access to heaven. Jesus didn't literally see Satan fall like lightning from heaven then. He isn't cast down until the future, therefore Jesus had a vision. Your original assertion was that this means Jesus pre-existed, but as you can see that's in doubt again.

To suggest Satan's present access to God to accuse as it finds him tagging along with a group in Job, includes all his former exalted great status & access in heaven shows a profound lack of knowledge on your part.

Not according to Job 1 & 2 and Revelation 12.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and write off your sophomoric and quite clumsy

Aww thanks I love it when you people talk to me so respectfully.

attempt to confuse Satan's fall which happened prior to Adam's creation, to Satan's being brought down to hell which is yet to happen to this profound lack of knowledge you demonstrate rather then to a deliberate attempt to deceive .
"Falling" and being "brought " somewhere are two completely different things
Being Brought down to hell is going to be completely different experience for Satan than his fall to earth, which will seem like joy ride in comparison .

Isa 14:15
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Once again, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit, according to Revelation 20:3 in the future before the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. That hasn't happened yet my friend. Care to try another angle with the alleged pre-existence of Jesus?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Which is precisely my point. Satan still has access to heaven. Jesus didn't literally see Satan fall like lightning from heaven then.

So how did God command that Lucifer, after being found to be full of sin & iniquity and being branded for eternity as Satan, unceremoniously arrive to his new principality & his new primary domicile of this world ?

John 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Did he arrive to this world by a heavenly Chariot in a whirlwind ?
Or being an angel did God just tell Satan to use the angel's ladder ?

Gen 28:12
.... and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Being as knowledgeable as you are at saying how Satan did not arrive at his new assigned principality of this world,
you must be just as knowledgeable of the method you say that God commanded a disgraced & condemned Satan was to arrive to his new principality of earth ?
Please tell us ?

 

[Runningman]

So how did God command that Lucifer, after being found to be full of sin & iniquity and being branded for eternity as Satan, unceremoniously arrive to his new principality & his new primary domicile of this world ?

John 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Did he arrive to this world by a heavenly Chariot in a whirlwind ?
Or being an angel did God just tell Satan to use the angel's ladder ?

Gen 28:12
.... and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

Being as knowledgeable as you are at saying how Satan did not arrive at his new assigned principality of this world,
you must be just as knowledgeable of the method you say that God commanded a disgraced & condemned Satan was to arrive to his new principality of earth ?
Please tell us ?

Sorry, but this comment seems to mostly be a strawman argument. This is not even close to what I am talking about.

What I am talking about is your original premise that Jesus pre-existed and you quoted Luke 10:18 with your belief that this proves it. I quoted scripture that I believe disproves what you were trying to say. I even played along when you insisted I quoted commentary. After I did that, you're onto something else and have ignored most of my questions.

I want to get back on topic.

Do you have anything else about your belief Jesus pre-existed?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Sorry, but this comment seems to mostly be a strawman argument. This is not even close to what I am talking about.

What I am talking about is your original premise that Jesus pre-existed and you quoted Luke 10:18 with your belief that this proves it. I quoted scripture that I believe disproves what you were trying to say. I even played along when you insisted I quoted commentary. After I did that, you're onto something else and have ignored most of my questions.

I want to get back on topic.

Do you have anything else about your belief Jesus pre-existed?

Satan's unceremonious and disgraced method of arrival to his new principality of earth , as commanded by God and witnessed and spoken of by the Son, Jesus Christ pre-incarnate, from the realm of heaven is the "something" topic that you are now running, not walking from Mr. Runningman.
Where has your "for sure" attitude concerning Satan's unceremonious dismissal to his condemned principality of this world disappeared to?
Did God supply him a white horse to transport him here ?
You seemed so sure of these details just a short time ago , what has happened ?

John 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

[Runningman]

Satan's unceremonious and disgraced method of arrival to his new principality of earth , as commanded by God and witnessed and spoken of by the Son, Jesus Christ pre-incarnate, from the realm of heaven is the "something" topic that you are now running, not walking from Mr. Runningman.
Where has your "for sure" attitude concerning Satan's unceremonious dismissal to his condemned principality of this world disappeared to?
Did God supply him a white horse to transport him here ?
You seemed so sure of these details just a short time ago , what has happened ?

John 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Do you have anything else about your belief Jesus pre-existed?

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you believe they are born with a sin nature?

Are you really asking me this?
I know that you know the story of Adam and Eve.
Didn't Adam damage all of humanity?

Romans 5:12
...Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,...


Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;


and many more...

We are born corrupted, stained with original sin/concupiscense/sin nature.

Not according to scripture. Jesus was tempted to sin in every way, but chose not to sin. God cannot sin nor be tempted. That means Jesus is not God.

Are you saying Jesus was born with the sin nature?

You're going to have to prove that since Christianity does not believe this.

Being tempted does not mean you have the sin nature.
It just means you are being tempted to sin.

JESUS NEVER SINNED.
Because He does not have the sin nature within Him.

Adam wasn't a sinner at first and he wasn't God. It doesn't follow that being sinless makes someone God. You have to include anyone who hasn't sinned yet with being God.

There's something here you're not understanding RM.
God created Adam.
Sin entered into the world AFTER Adam ate of the fruit.
If Adam was CREATED BY GOD,
Of course he wasn't God!
Who said that he was???

Jesus was born of a woman. Which one of God's laws do babies break?

Babies don't break any of God's Laws.
They are innocent until the age of reason.

Do YOU think a baby can sin?
Do YOU think they get to an age where they become responsible for their actions?

Does God choose not to sin or is it that God cannot sin?

God cannot sin.
Sin is not a part of Him.
God does not have the sin nature like we do.

Jesus did not have the sin nature because He is God.
God the 2nd Person of the Trinity, God the Logos become flesh.

 

[LovethroughDove]

God cannot sin.
Sin is not a part of Him.
God does not have the sin nature like we do.

Jesus did not have the sin nature because He is God.
God the 2nd Person of the Trinity, God the Logos become flesh.

Hi GodsGrace. I think I know you as a different name, and as my sister in Christ I love you. I have to say, that too many people either: Spiritualize Jesus too much (most of Christendom, New Age people) or not enough (Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses) This probably will offend most who read that, but it is what it is.

The balance is that he is Lord. He is divine/Son of God and he is human/Son of Man. He is Lord over us because of the Son of God ?, but he also is Christ because he is able to perfectly relate to the temptations and sins that our flesh causes us daily.

Hebrews 2:17-18 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every-way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GodsGrace. I think I know you as a different name, and as my sister in Christ I love you. I have to say, that too many people either: Spiritualize Jesus too much (most of Christendom, New Age people) or not enough (Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses) This probably will offend most who read that, but it is what it is.

The balance is that he is Lord. He is divine/Son of God and he is human/Son of Man. He is Lord over us because of the Son of God ?, but he also is Christ because he is able to perfectly relate to the temptations and sins that our flesh causes us daily.

Hebrews 2:17-18 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every-way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hi Love,
I changed my name to GodsGrace because I think it's so important and wonderful that God has given us so much love.
My name used to be Wondering.

I very much agree with your first paragraph.
So, yes, as I understand it, Jesus could be tempted.
He could understand what temptation is.
He knows how difficult for us it is to be living in a world full of temptation at every turn.

But He could not go beyond this. If Jesus were just another human with a human sin nature He never could have atoned for our sins. He had to be perfect like the perfect lamb in Exodus.

Also, so that He could be an understanding High Priest.
A good advocate for us with the Father.

Good post. Thanks.
Haven't seen you in a while, hope you stick around.

 

[donadams]

Is He speaking from His divine nature or His human nature?

What about Good shepherd?

How can there be a sin against the Holy Spirit if there is no trinity and no Holy Spirit?

If in your understanding Jesus is not a divine person what is He a mere Man?

Thks

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Jesus says that "there is none good but one, that is, God " and God alone.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So what was Jesus purposely telling us about Himself in this proclamation ?

Consecrated Life, as always, look at the context of all individual verses for their real meaning instead of picking them out and giving them your own meaning:

Mar 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Mar 10:19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
Mar 10:20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.”
Mar 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”
Mar 10:22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!”

(1) The young man was treating him as an exalted rabbi on par with God. Jesus put his idolatry down. He is saying nothing about his own deity.

(2) Jesus left out the command in his list "You shall not covet," which was the man's problem. Jesus also called him to follow Jesus, an action that would have sent the young man to the cross with him.

(3) Instead, for Jesus' many claims to deity (also in the context of the gospels), look at the many "I am" claims of Jesus in the Gospel of John that identify him with the God of the burning bush (Exodus 3:13-15):

Exo 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Exo 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

This truth is most clearly seen when Jesus claims to the good Shepherd in John 10:11.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

This amazing claim not only identifies Jesus completely with the God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush but also to David's divine Shepherd in Psalm 23:1.

Psa 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. (All quotes are from the ESV.)

 

[Corn Pop]

Jesus says that "there is none good but one, that is, God " and God alone.

Mar 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

So what was Jesus purposely telling us about Himself in this proclamation ?

Could it possibly have been beacuse the dude only thought Jesus was a teacher and just a man like him and was calling him good, and also believed he was good, so was looking at humans as good and Jesus was like why you calling me just a man and teacher good, only God is good. Jesus is speaking to the man the way the man is thinking. If you see me as just a man and teacher then why call me good, only God is good.

 

[Corn Pop]

If Jesus said yes i am good to someone who thought they were also good, Jesus would have been telling that person that man in the flesh is good and that person would go away thinking that.

I would guess that is why Jesus said "why are you calling me good" if someone believed he was just a man in the flesh like them, so he said "only God is good".