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Jesus as co-Creator

M

Mighty Bear

Guest
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds
of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over
every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.†(Genesis 1:26)

"The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man." (Proverbs 8:22-31)

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.†(Hebrews 1:10-12)

"But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be
granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead.
To this we are witnesses." (Acts 3:14-15)

http://christiansite.multiply.com/journal
 
In a way Jesus is co-creator. I mean he certainly was the Author of Life, as in 'the Teacher of Eternal Life'. But still I think Jesus is a manifestation of God on earth and so he is only part of the Holy Trinity, in other words, He was not the one who created the Earth and Mankind.
 
"Us" is used in the OT because the word for God in Hebrew is plural (elohim). The word for God is plural because parts of the OT are based on earlier Mesopotamian myths which were polytheistic.

Since the Trinity is in essence ONE and the same, Jesus certainly is co-creator of the Universe since He is "consubstantial" with the Father (as the Nicene Creed puts it). Whether this "consubstantiality" applies to both the human and divine natures of Jesus is something theologians can worry about (IMHO the human and divine natures of Jesus Christ are also one and the same - which view is a heresy, if I remember correctly).

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him; and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness; and the darkness did not comprehend it.

There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. He came for a witeness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.

There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

He came to His own, and those who were His own did not recieve Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John bore witness of Him, and cried out saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

For of His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:1-18


I have a hard time understanding how anyone can read these words and not see clearly that Jesus was indeed the Creator.
 
Ah........verse 18..........that would be SON wouldn't it?

MEC
 
Roel said:
In a way Jesus is co-creator. I mean he certainly was the Author of Life, as in 'the Teacher of Eternal Life'. But still I think Jesus is a manifestation of God on earth and so he is only part of the Holy Trinity, in other words, He was not the one who created the Earth and Mankind.

Not so according to the Bible; here is what it says.
John 1:1-4 (ASV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:14 (ASV)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
 
Does "Let US create." prove that Jesus Christ is co-Creator?

Let us debunk this myth

Another common claim presented from the Bible to "prove" the divinity of Christ is presented surprisingly from the first chapter of the book of Genesis. God in there says :"Let US create." The word us is plural and has been used by God for himself in Genesis. Christians assert that this plural proves the Trinity, otherwise God would have used the singular.

This claim is ill founded. An ignorance of eastern languages including Hebrew and Arabic prompts such a claims. In most eastern languages, there are two types of plurals: plural of numbers and plural of respect. In the Koran, God speaks of Himself as "us" and "we" too. Yet in those verses no Muslim will ever doubt that God is referring to Himself alone. Even in old English, the King or the Queen would use such plurals for themselves alone.

An objective inquiry from Jewish scholars, whose book the Old Testament is, will reveal the same. Also, modern translators recognize this and therefore translate the word ELOHIM in the Old Testament as God and not Gods even though it is a plural. I have never seen a Bible with the word ELOHIM translated as "Gods". It is a plural of respect, it doesn't signify the Trinity.
 
Mansoor_ali said:
Does "Let US create." prove that Jesus Christ is co-Creator?
“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities  all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.â€Â
(Colossians 1:16-17 NASB)
 
DavidLee said:
Mansoor_ali said:
Does "Let US create." prove that Jesus Christ is co-Creator?

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities  all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.â€Â
(Colossians 1:16-17 NASB)

Response to DavidLee

First of all i want to tell you that it is not saying of Jesus Christ.Big difference

Further it doesnot prove any thing.Here is response
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... ge&pid=128
 
Mansoor_ali said:
DavidLee said:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... ge&pid=128[/url][/quote:2f96a]
A great many things that are true were not spoken of by Jesus. I already know that nothing I write will convince you of anything. You are blinded (2 Corinthians 4:4).
If I could point to a passage that said anything you were unable to deny, you still would refuse to believe.
The reason I persist is because I know that you would not be here throwing up silly objections if Jesus was not seeking you out.
I am curious about something: Why do you think you are here?
 
Anyone who has read the first few verses of Hebrews and John knows that Jesus was instrumental in creation. Creation was done through Him, and apart from Him nothing was made that was made.

~Josh
 
Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh:1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh:1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus was the living word of God made flesh, and was responsible for all of creation, by the WORD God spoke it all into existence. So Jesus was indeed the creator.
 
I guess you KNEW it was only a matter of time..............................he he he.

handy, if you will read on in the chapter that you offer a partial quote from, you will see aslo:

[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

When we couple this with what is offered in the beginning of the chapter, it would seem that this would UTTERLY refute the position offered in 'trinity'. For Christ to BE God, then it would be an UTTER contradtiction to state that NO MAN has EVER SEEN God. It doesn't ONLY state this, but offers that Christ DECLARED Him. That is to REVEAL God to mankind. And WHO did Christ SAY that God was? HIS FATHER. His God and OUR God are the SAME.

And it is not "I" that would offer some bizaar interpretation. I have SIMPLY offered the WORDS as they are given. And this being offered up in the SAME chapter that is MOST used in a TEACHING of 'trinity'.

And there are OTHER scripture in which Christ offers the SAME reference; that He came to reveal HIS FATHER to mankind. That NO ONE can know the Father EXCEPT through the Son and NO ONE can COME to the Son except through the WILL of the Father.

Couple this with 'firstborn of every creature'. and words used to describe the advent such as 'made', only begotten and there is more than sufficient evidence offered in scripture to dispute 'trinity'.

Just my 'two cents worth'. I am DONE so no one need get 'upset'. I DIDN'T turn this into ANYTHING, just attempting to offer understanding that goes OUTSIDE of the 'box'. Understanding that IS offered up in scripture for the sake of understanding.

But I must admit that the quotes from Psalms are interesting indeed. It's been a while since I read them and WOW, what amazing evidence is offered there. Must have been a REASON for these words..................

Blessings,

MEC
 
The fact Jesus stated that no man had seen God the father was positively true, man cannot see Spirit. And God is spirit. God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit, are one in the same in Spirit, thus one God. Only as men do we have to define a line, where there is actually none. Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. You also can't contain Spirit in a box, so it does no good to either try to contain God in, or out of a box.

We have only a vague understanding of God, and it will remain so, until we to become as he is, and stand face to face. Fortunately we are not asked to understand God, or all things pertaining to God, only to believe that he is, and his only begotten son Jesus died for our sins.
 
II. CREATION - WORK OF THE HOLY TRINITY

290 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth":128 three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being.

291 "In the beginning was the Word. . . and the Word was God. . . all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made."129 The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth.. . all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."130 The Church's faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the "giver of life", "the Creator Spirit" (Veni, Creator Spiritus), the "source of every good".131

292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit,132 inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands".133 Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.

Source:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
 
samuel said:
The fact Jesus stated that no man had seen God the father was positively true, man cannot see Spirit. And God is spirit. God the Father, God the son, and God the Holy Spirit, are one in the same in Spirit, thus one God. Only as men do we have to define a line, where there is actually none. Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. You also can't contain Spirit in a box, so it does no good to either try to contain God in, or out of a box.

Samuel,

i understand your passion involved with the defense of your BELIEF, I DO. But do you realize the contradiction that you have JUST offered in this statement: You also can't contain Spirit in a box, so it does no good to either try to contain God in, or out of a box.

Yet this EXACTLY what YOU have 'chosen' to DO in an acceptance of the doctrine of 'trinity'. You have accepted what was taught by MEN hundreds of years AFTER the death of Christ. If you THINK differently, then offer ONE word of 'trinity' offered by Christ or His apostles.

To MAKE Christ GOD is TO 'put Him in this BOX' that you have JUST offered we CANNOT DO.


We have only a vague understanding of God, and it will remain so, until we to become as he is, and stand face to face. Fortunately we are not asked to understand God, or all things pertaining to God, only to believe that he is, and his only begotten son Jesus died for our sins.

And i TRULY hope that you DO NOT believe what you have offered. For I do NOT worship some 'phantom' or 'mystery god'. I worship the ONE TRUE God Our Creator. Our FATHER. And He WANTS for us to KNOW Him PERSONALLY. We can ONLY do this THROUGH His Son, but that the Son IS able to LIVE within our hearts is HOW we CAN know our Father.

Your understanding may indeed be vague, but PLEASE don't limit others by your statements. i am here to offer that GOD is able to reveal Himself to THOSE HE LOVES. He ALWAYS HAS AND ALWAYS WILL. And SAMUEL, we CAN be 'like God' RIGHT NOW. And here is how YOU TOO can KNOW this: What IS God? Spirit RIGHT? Now, other than Spirit, what IS God? Answer this question and you will KNOW that you too can SHARE EXACTLY what God IS with HIm and your neighbors.

And we ARE able to NOW, (since Christ's death and ressurection), to BE Spirit as well as FLESH. For to be 'born again' is NOT to be 'rebirthed' from the womb. But to BE 're-born' IS to be BORN AGAIN in Spirit.

Please pardon my words if they seem harsh. They are NOT meant to BE. They are PURELY meant to offer understanding and SHARE what we have ALL been offered. If you are practicing with a group that is TEACHING you that you are UNWORTHY to KNOW your FATHER, then you need to re-evalute the sincerity of those that would teach something such as this.

God LOVES us. God WANTS us to BE His children. He wants to SHARE His love and He wants US to share ours with Him and each other. He loves us enough to have offered His ONLY begotten Son to DIE an horrible DEATH for us. Spat upon and ridiculed for NOTHING other than His LOVE towards us. Nailed to a cross to suffer as cruel a death as possible. And ALL this for ONE reason: His LOVE for us. He OFFERED in example EXACTLY what we NEEDED to LEARN. And don't think for ONE moment that This Love is 'held back' from those that LOVE Him.

Are we able to understand EVERYTHING pertaining to ANYTHING completely? I doubt it. But we certainly ARE to KNOW God and UNDERSTAND that which HE IS. For otherwise, we would be worshiping nothing better than statues and figurines, volcanos and the moon and stars. We were created by a living and loving God that wants NOTHING more than for us to share His love. I can ASSURE you of this.

Blessings, my brother and welcome to the forums.


MEC
 
Mec, do you always have to talk in riddles? A little plain talk, please, for this old Mary-worshipping Catholic
 
MEC said:
Your understanding may indeed be vague, but PLEASE don't limit others by your statements. i am here to offer that GOD is able to reveal Himself to THOSE HE LOVES.
With this logic, why can't God reveal himself through the Trinity as well? It appears with the logic at hand, one could say with certainty, "anyone who God loves, does not believe in the Trinity, for God's proof of his love toward humanity is based on the truth that the trinity is false."
MEC said:
And don't think for ONE moment that This Love is 'held back' from those that LOVE Him.
What of us whom e's God's great love has been revealed to us by means of the Trinity? Do we that believe in the Trinity just not love "HIM" enough and are currently being deceived?
I prefer to say that God's love has been revealed through the trinity to those it has been revealed to based on God's love for us.
MEC said:
Are we able to understand EVERYTHING pertaining to ANYTHING completely? I doubt it.
Mec,
Please pardon my words if they seem harsh, MEC. They are NOT meant to BE. They are PURELY meant to offer understanding and SHARE what we have ALL been offered. If you, MEC, readily admit that we, including yourself, are not fully capable of understanding everything, then why the dominant stance against God's greatest expression of himself, which is love, and is found robustly expressed within the Trinity?
 
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