Jesus came back.. and Destroyed Jerusalem

[researcher]

Sorry, WW, but if the Holy Spirit prompted Mark to write the following:

Mar 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Then Jesus had to have spoken the parable against the priests and scribes that were standing in front of him. The parable was about them, lol. Not someone else. ;)

It was about them.

Lol. Cool. So were they destroyed like Jesus said they would be?

 

[whirlwind]

We are His body.

So we're not waiting for Hime to Come Back?
He's already here?

His Spirit fills us, illuminates us, now. He abides in us.

• Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

 

[whirlwind]

They didn't know they were not the last generation.

• Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

How does not knowing the day or hour preclude anyone from not knowing the generation?

For example, When My wife was pregnant with each of our kids, we had no idea of the day or hour they would be born, though we had certain knowledge that it would be sometime around 40 weeks after they were conceived. Not knowing the day or hour hardly necessitates not knowing the general time.

The parable was spoken about THEM

Then, How was it fulfilled for them?

They know of their generation certainly but did they know, or believe, theirs was the last generation? We know the last generation, the "this generation," as this is the generation of the fig tree.

The parable was spoken against them and the "them" is all of "them," throughout history. They, as all wicked husbandmen, are destroyed. Each in his own time.

 

[whirlwind]

They didn't know they were not the last generation.

How do you know we are?

There are many believing they would be the last generation and they weren't so...all we can go on is what He taught in the Olivet Prophecies. The parable of the fig tree tells us we are of that generation, or so I believe. :yes

 

[whirlwind]

Sorry, WW, but if the Holy Spirit prompted Mark to write the following:

Mar 12:12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Then Jesus had to have spoken the parable against the priests and scribes that were standing in front of him. The parable was about them, lol. Not someone else. ;)

It was about them.

Lol. Cool. So were they destroyed like Jesus said they would be?

Where do you think they are now? Where are all the others that followed their ways?

 

[parousia70]

It was about them.

[quote:1fr7oy1g]Lol. Cool. So were they destroyed like Jesus said they would be?

Where do you think they are now? Where are all the others that followed their ways? [/quote:1fr7oy1g]

Here's your problem with that view. If you presume they are destroyed, then you must assert His coming was what destroyed them.

The parable is clear. They would be destroyed "BY HIS COMING", and not before (or after).

 

[whirlwind]

It was about them.

[quote:g1i99no0]Lol. Cool. So were they destroyed like Jesus said they would be?

Where do you think they are now? Where are all the others that followed their ways?

Here's your problem with that view. If you presume they are destroyed, then you must assert His coming was what destroyed them.

The parable is clear. They would be destroyed "BY HIS COMING", and not before (or after).[/quote:g1i99no0]


That is a terrific point Parousia. I had not thought of it and...you are correct.

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war. That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

 

[researcher]

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war. That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

Lol. There's still a problem with this interpretation.

Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16
He shall come

and destroy these husbandmen,

and shall give the vineyard to others.

And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

The "vineyard" was already "given to others." Thus the husbandmen must have been destroyed already. ;)

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[parousia70]

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war.

When you say "this age" what age do you mean, and when did it begin?

That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

So you now say those husbandmen Christ was addressing in the flesh are NOT yet destroyed?

you are kinda ll over the map here....

 

[parousia70]

They didn't know they were not the last generation.

How do you know we are?

There are many believing they would be the last generation and they weren't so...all we can go on is what He taught in the Olivet Prophecies. The parable of the fig tree tells us we are of that generation, or so I believe. :yes

Hmmm.
Parable of the Fig Tree?

I don't see how the parable of the fig tree points to our generation nay more than any other (except maybe Christ's generation)

are you suggesting the Fig Tree parable is fulfilled somehow in Modern Day Secular Democratic Israel?

 

[whirlwind]

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war. That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

Lol. There's still a problem with this interpretation.

Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16
He shall come

and destroy these husbandmen,

and shall give the vineyard to others.

And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

The "vineyard" was already "given to others." Thus the husbandmen must have been destroyed already. ;)

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Jeff, you've just hit on it. As the "kingdom of God" is His "vineyard," it was taken from them. That was/is their destruction....they are not of the kingdom. They are cast out/destroyed. I was thinking literally destroyed but their destruction is that the kingdom of God is no longer theirs.

• Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  
  Luke 8:10 And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
  
  Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
  
  Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

We see the kingdom of God before our physical death. It is the Holy Spirit in us. That is the mystery of the kingdom. The husbandmen were/are cast out of that kingdom. We are His elect, the nation that "brings forth the fruits thereof." In order to be of the first resurrection we must be in that kingdom before we physically die. The kingdom of God, within us, comes to dwell in us when we are illuminated....

• Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

 

[whirlwind]

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war.

When you say "this age" what age do you mean, and when did it begin?

• Genesis 1:2.....And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, "Let there be light:" and there was light.

This present age began when His Spirit moved on the waters. Satan rebelled before that time...in the previous age.

[quote:1raxxa3m]That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

So you now say those husbandmen Christ was addressing in the flesh are NOT yet destroyed?

you are kinda ll over the map here....[/quote:1raxxa3m]


Sorry....I'm learning from you and Researcher as I go. You both bring up interesting points that must be considered in this. In my previous post, in reply to Researcher, I realized that they are indeed destroyed at His coming for His coming is the kingdom in us. They are NOT of the kingdom and therefore face their destruction at that point, whether they do or do not realize it then. When this age ends and we face Him....then they will realize.

 

[Vic C.]

We see the kingdom of God before our physical death. It is the Holy Spirit in us. That is the mystery of the kingdom. The husbandmen were/are cast out of that kingdom. We are His elect, the nation that "brings forth the fruits thereof." In order to be of the first resurrection we must be in that kingdom before we physically die. The kingdom of God, within us, comes to dwell in us when we are illuminated....

So, which is it? Do we see the Kingdom of God or is the Kingdom of God within us?

Now, you say, we must be in the Kingdom before we physically die. A while back, you insisted with me that there will be neither flesh or blood in the Kingdom.

We now have:

1- We see the Kingdom before our death.
2- That Kingdom is the HS.
3- The Kingdom is a mystery (yet you seem to have figured out this mystery).
4- We must be in the Kingdom before we die.
5- The Kingdom is within.

It can't be all the above.

WW, I believe your intentions are good, but I truly pray you see how inconsistent your thought are. Your studies don't seems to be progressive; you are being blown all over the place and make many assumptions regarding those alleged "between the lines" hidden doctrines. Case in point:

This present age began when His Spirit moved on the waters. Satan rebelled before that time...in the previous age.

Sorry, but there is just not enough substantial scripture to support this belief. It's supposition at best.

Listen, more and more members are realizing this. They attempt to reach out to you by showing where you err, but sometimes you just shun them. It is probably your disdain for orthodox and traditional Christianity. What you must realize is that not all the teachers, preachers, scholars and commentators from the past have been deceived. They are inspired believers too with much more overall knowledge of the text and are good and respected exegetes.

So when we quote from the likes of Clarke, Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin, Luther, Newton, we know they know what they are saying.

Considering context and background is also very important. If one just goes about looking for passages that use the same or similar words and ignores the who, what, where, when and whys of a specific passage, who knows what interpretation could come out of studying this way. Just like English, Hebrew and Greek words don't always have the exact same meaning from passage to passage. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, so context becomes very important indeed.

 

[whirlwind]

We see the kingdom of God before our physical death. It is the Holy Spirit in us. That is the mystery of the kingdom. The husbandmen were/are cast out of that kingdom. We are His elect, the nation that "brings forth the fruits thereof." In order to be of the first resurrection we must be in that kingdom before we physically die. The kingdom of God, within us, comes to dwell in us when we are illuminated....

So, which is it? Do we see the Kingdom of God or is the Kingdom of God within us?

Now, you say, we must be in the Kingdom before we physically die. A while back, you insisted with me that there will be neither flesh or blood in the Kingdom.

And...I stand by that. He illuminates and translates us while we walk the earth. Our spirits are "caught up unto God and to His throne" while we are in flesh.

• Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
  
  Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son;
  
  Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

To be of the first resurrection this illumination and translation must take place before our physical death or...it's too late to be of the first resurrection. We MUST DIE TO SELF for that to happen. So, when we die to self we give our life and our life is our blood.....

• Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Then...It is His Blood that gives us life. We are then flesh and bone...not flesh and blood (spiritually).

1- We see the Kingdom before our death.
2- That Kingdom is the HS.
3- The Kingdom is a mystery (yet you seem to have figured out this mystery).
4- We must be in the Kingdom before we die.
5- The Kingdom is within.

It can't be all the above.

It is all of the above except perhaps for the solving of the mystery...but I'm getting there.

WW, I believe your intentions are good, but I truly pray you see how inconsistent your thought are. Your studies don't seems to be progressive; you are being blown all over the place and make many assumptions regarding those alleged "between the lines" hidden doctrines. Case in point:

[quote:2qea7fxe]This present age began when His Spirit moved on the waters. Satan rebelled before that time...in the previous age.

Sorry, but there is just not enough substantial scripture to support this belief. It's supposition at best.[/quote:2qea7fxe]


So....when in Scripture are we told of his rebellion? Was he not already in his fallen state when we are first introduced to him? When did that happen? It is NOT supposition. :naughty

Listen, more and more members are realizing this. They attempt to reach out to you by showing where you err, but sometimes you just shun them. It is probably your disdain for orthodox and traditional Christianity. What you must realize is that not all the teachers, preachers, scholars and commentators from the past have been deceived. They are inspired believers too with much more overall knowledge of the text and are good and respected exegetes.

So when we quote from the likes of Clarke, Spurgeon, Sproul, Calvin, Luther, Newton, we know they know what they are saying.

Considering context and background is also very important. If one just goes about looking for passages that use the same or similar words and ignores the who, what, where, when and whys of a specific passage, who knows what interpretation could come out of studying this way. Just like English, Hebrew and Greek words don't always have the exact same meaning from passage to passage. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, so context becomes very important indeed.

Thank you Vic. I'll stick with the Holy Spirit. But, I appreciate the thought, from you and the "others." Truly...I don't mean that flippantly.

 

[researcher]

His Spirit comes and abides in His elect...while they are in flesh. He walks and abides in them. Then, when this age ends, at the seventh trump, He comes to judge and make war. That is when the separation of the righteous and the wicked takes place. That is when they are destroyed "by His coming."

Lol. There's still a problem with this interpretation.

Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 20:16
He shall come

and destroy these husbandmen,

and shall give the vineyard to others.

And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

The "vineyard" was already "given to others." Thus the husbandmen must have been destroyed already. ;)

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Jeff, you've just hit on it. As the "kingdom of God" is His "vineyard," it was taken from them. That was/is their destruction....they are not of the kingdom. They are cast out/destroyed. I was thinking literally destroyed but their destruction is that the kingdom of God is no longer theirs.

• Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
  
  Luke 8:10 And He said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
  
  Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
  
  Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

We see the kingdom of God before our physical death. It is the Holy Spirit in us. That is the mystery of the kingdom. The husbandmen were/are cast out of that kingdom. We are His elect, the nation that "brings forth the fruits thereof." In order to be of the first resurrection we must be in that kingdom before we physically die. The kingdom of God, within us, comes to dwell in us when we are illuminated....

• Hebrews 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Lol. OK, they were destroyed by being "cast out of the kingdom." Although, I doubt if they were ever in it so to speak. Jesus called most of the religious leaders the sons of the devil. They were overseers of the "vineyard," not necessarily "in" the kingdom of God. Jesus was talking about a literal destruction, as in, being killed "physically." And they were, 40 years later, by the Romans.
The body is destroyed at death, the spirit at the second death unless a person is saved. ;)
Their physical bodies were destroyed by the Roman armies. ;)

As for being "illuminated," I believe you'll find the word to mean "enlightened" in this context.

The same Greek word is used here:
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Most translations have Heb. 10:32 with "enlightened" not "illuminated."
Heb 10:32 And call to your remembrance the former days, in which, having been enlightened, ye did endure much conflict of sufferings, (Young's Literal Version)

;)

 

[researcher]

So, let's see where we're at...

Mar 12:9
What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?

1. he will come

2. and destroy the husbandmen,

3. and will give the vineyard unto others.

Jesus comes back, destroys the original husbandmen (religious leaders of Israel), gives the vineyard to others... which lines up perfectly with this

Mat 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next:

1. for verily (truly) I say unto you,

2. Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel,

3. till the Son of man be come.

If Mark 12:9 happened, then, it would make Matthew 10:23 true. The Son of man came before the 12 disciples finished going through Israel. He showed up during the destruction of Jerusalem! :D

Woot! :D

 

[whirlwind]

So, let's see where we're at...

Mar 12:9
What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?

1. he will come

2. and destroy the husbandmen,

3. and will give the vineyard unto others.

Jesus comes back, destroys the original husbandmen (religious leaders of Israel), gives the vineyard to others... which lines up perfectly with this

Mat 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next:

1. for verily (truly) I say unto you,

2. Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel,

3. till the Son of man be come.

If Mark 12:9 happened, then, it would make Matthew 10:23 true. The Son of man came before the 12 disciples finished going through Israel. He showed up during the destruction of Jerusalem! :D

Woot! :D

Jeff...we ARE Israel. We are the lost sheep. He is still working in us turning us into the sons of God.

 

[researcher]

Jeff...we ARE Israel. We are the lost sheep. He is still working in us turning us into the sons of God.

That was about land based Israel. ;) The 12 disciples wouldn't be finished going through the cities of the land of Israel before Jesus came back. The 12 disciples are dead, so, Jesus must have come back like he said. ;)

 

[RND]

Jesus said that when he came back, he would destroy the husbandmen (rulers) who looked after his vineyard, take the kingdom of God from them, and give it to someone else.

Actually, Jesus didn't say that. Jesus was making a parable, comparing the all the things God had done for the children of Israel with being a householder loaning out His vineyard.

Forty years later, the husbandmen were killed when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem.

Actually Jesus caused the house of Israel to be desolate even before He was crucified.

Thus, Jesus must have come back when they were killed.

That's what one would call circular logic and it has no place in the reality of the Bible.

 

[researcher]

Jesus said that when he came back, he would destroy the husbandmen (rulers) who looked after his vineyard, take the kingdom of God from them, and give it to someone else.

Actually, Jesus didn't say that. Jesus was making a parable, comparing the all the things God had done for the children of Israel with being a householder loaning out His vineyard.

Forty years later, the husbandmen were killed when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem.

Actually Jesus caused the house of Israel to be desolate even before He was crucified.

[quote:113fyj96]Thus, Jesus must have come back when they were killed.

That's what one would call circular logic and it has no place in the reality of the Bible.[/quote:113fyj96]

Then Jesus was wrong