Jesus came back.. and Destroyed Jerusalem

[RND]

I would tell them this...

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third,
it is accepted as self-evident."

That would be assuming that what you are proposing is in fact ruth.

We're slowly getting to stage 3. lol

Some, maybe. Not me however. I'll never accept preterism because it is truly a belief that has been shown, time and again, to be a massive lie. How does the preterist come to grips with the fact that Nero died three years before the destruction of Jerusalem?

 

[researcher]

It's interesting you quote Acts 13:46 in that no matter what date you believe Paul was still alive and told the Pharisees that the kingdom was being taken from them and given to others "before" the siege at Rome! Essentially you are arguing against yourself!

Doesn't matter about the timing. The kingdom of God was taken from those leaders in their lifetime.
Arguing the exact year is like arguing how many angels can dance on a pin.
The entire parable is now a historic event. :yes

Mar 12:9
What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?

he will come

and destroy the husbandmen,
and will give the vineyard unto others.

As for the lord of the vineyard, that would be Jesus. It was Jesus who sent the servants/prophets.
Thus it would be Jesus who came and destroyed the "husbandmen."

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Mar 12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.
Mar 12:3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.
Mar 12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.
Mar 12:5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

 

[RND]

Doesn't matter about the timing.

Sure it does! Timing is everything. You insist that the "husbandmen was destroyed" in 70 AD and yet clearly we see that the word of God went to the gentiles before then.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Two things had to happen 1) the husbandmen were to be destroyed and 2) the vineyard given to others. In Acts 13:46 we see that the vineyard was given to others. That must mean 1. had already taken place!

The kingdom of God was taken from those leaders in their lifetime.

It was taken from them at the death of Christ!

Arguing the exact year is like arguing how many angels can dance on a pin.

Just meant to demonstrate the holes in preterism.

The entire parable is now a historic event. :yes

Just as it was when it was uttered.

Mar 12:9
What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?

he will come

and destroy the husbandmen,
and will give the vineyard unto others.

As for the lord of the vineyard, that would be Jesus.

No, Jesus was the Son.

Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. Mar 12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard.

It was Jesus who sent the servants/prophets.

The Father, the "certain man."

Thus it would be Jesus who came and destroyed the "husbandmen."

God Himself through His Son.

 

[researcher]

Just as it was when it was uttered.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?
he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

The pharisees and scribes weren't destroyed while Jesus was alive. Destroyed means they would be killed i.e. dead. The Romans did this when they destroyed Jerusalem and killed almost everyone in it.

 

[RND]

The pharisees and scribes weren't destroyed while Jesus was alive.

Yes they were! There place in the Kingdom was destroyed by their actions and unrepentant hearts.

Destroyed means they would be killed i.e. dead.

Sure. Does it say when this would happen?

The Romans did this when they destroyed Jerusalem and killed almost everyone in it.

Except the Christian converts. So obviously the husbandmen were destroyed and the vineyard (the world) was given to others.

 

[researcher]

The pharisees and scribes weren't destroyed while Jesus was alive.

Yes they were! There place in the Kingdom was destroyed by their actions and unrepentant hearts.

They were the sons of the devil, they were never in the kingdom (Mat 23:33, Joh 8:47, Joh 8:44). They were the overseers of the chosen people only. The Greek word "destroyed" usually speaks of losing ones life i.e.

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

[quote:3nuwt436]Destroyed means they would be killed i.e. dead.

Sure. Does it say when this would happen? [/quote:3nuwt436]


After the son was killed, and when the lord of the vineyard came back. Obviously it would be before they all died.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

[quote:3nuwt436]The Romans did this when they destroyed Jerusalem and killed almost everyone in it.

Except the Christian converts. So obviously the husbandmen were destroyed and the vineyard (the world) was given to others.[/quote:3nuwt436]


The vineyard was the chosen people i.e. the Jews. More specifically Jerusalem as Jesus was killed outside of the gates of Jerusalem (the vineyard).

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

 

[RND]

They were the sons of the devil, they were never in the kingdom (Mat 23:33, Joh 8:47, Joh 8:44). They were the overseers of the chosen people only.

Never the less the kingdom was taken from them and given to others.

The Greek word "destroyed" usually speaks of losing ones life i.e.

No, it does not. It speaks of losing other things as well. destroy = apollumi = from apo - apo 575 and the base of oleqroV - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

After the son was killed, and when the lord of the vineyard came back. Obviously it would be before they all died.

researcher two things happen in verse nine.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

The Son is first killed, the husbandmen is destroyed, and the vineyard given to others. The vineyard we see was given to other in Acts 13:46 therefore we must conclude that the husbandmen were destroyed before then. The word means to reflexively to "lose" something.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I think we discussed this already.

The vineyard was the chosen people i.e. the Jews.

Which represented the world.

More specifically Jerusalem as Jesus was killed outside of the gates of Jerusalem (the vineyard).

Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard.

I think your chronology meter is messed up. Clearly it says the son would be killed and then cast out of the vineyard, not the other way around.

Isa 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Israel is synonymous with the world now.

 

[researcher]

The Son is first killed, the husbandmen is destroyed, and the vineyard given to others. The vineyard we see was given to other in Acts 13:46 therefore we must conclude that the husbandmen were destroyed before then. The word means to reflexively to "lose" something.

The giving of the kingdom to others does not have to happen in time order. He would have said, "and after the husbandmen are dead, I will give the kingdom to others."

The word "and" used means also means "also, likewise, moreover, indeed." There needs be no time indication.

He will destroy the husbandmen, also give the vineyard to others

Jesus said everything would be accomplished in that generation.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished.

And the husbandmen would be held accountable for the blood of those slain, in that generation

Luk 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute;
Luk 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luk 11:51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation.

That generation was held accountable for the blood of the prophets during the Roman/Israel war. Most of the people lost their lives, thus, they were destroyed.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

 

[RND]

The giving of the kingdom to others does not have to happen in time order.

You would have to show me some scripture then to solidify your point.

He would have said, "and after the husbandmen are dead, I will give the kingdom to others."

I don't know if you realize it but this comment actually solidifies my point.

The word "and" used means also means "also, likewise, moreover, indeed." There needs be no time indication.

It's used inclusively.

Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

One doesn't happen without the other.

He will destroy the husbandmen, also give the vineyard to others

Don't forget to use the word "and."

Jesus said everything would be accomplished in that generation.

No doubt! The kingdom was wrent from the Jews and given to the gentiles "in that generation."

And the husbandmen would be held accountable for the blood of those slain, in that generation

Exactly!

That generation was held accountable for the blood of the prophets during the Roman/Israel war. Most of the people lost their lives, thus, they were destroyed.

And yet the vineyard was still in possession of the gentiles. It wasn't destroyed. The old ways, old priesthood was.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

There fate was sealed when Christ was crucified. God gave them another 40 years to repent. Some in fact did. See Acts 2.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[researcher]

Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard.

I think your chronology meter is messed up. Clearly it says the son would be killed and then cast out of the vineyard, not the other way around.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

Like I said, it doesn't have to be in time order.

 

[RND]

Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed [him], and cast [him] out of the vineyard.

I think your chronology meter is messed up. Clearly it says the son would be killed and then cast out of the vineyard, not the other way around.

Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

Like I said, it doesn't have to be in time order.

What you are simply postulating is how remarkable the prophetic signs of the ceremonial offering of the red heifer were fulfilled.

 

[researcher]

What you are simply postulating is how remarkable the prophetic signs of the ceremonial offering of the red heifer were fulfilled.

No, simply postulating that Jesus made it quite clear what happened and what was going to happen.

The Jews killed the prophets
They killed Jesus
Then Jesus came back and destroyed them (as in dead), final culmination, 70AD

This is why Jesus told the apostles and the pharisees he would be back in their lifetime. ;)

 

[parousia70]

There fate was sealed when Christ was crucified. God gave them another 40 years to repent.

Then what did God do?

 

[RND]

There fate was sealed when Christ was crucified. God gave them another 40 years to repent.

Then what did God do?

He allowed the temple to be razed and then the word of God was spread throughout the known world. Jesus certainly didn't come back at that time, the resurrection of the dead didn't take place, Nero wasn't "the" antichrist (just one of many) and the book of Revelation wasn't completed.

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

 

[researcher]

There fate was sealed when Christ was crucified. God gave them another 40 years to repent.

Then what did God do?

He allowed the temple to be razed and then the word of God was spread throughout the known world. Jesus certainly didn't come back at that time, the resurrection of the dead didn't take place, Nero wasn't "the" antichrist (just one of many) and the book of Revelation wasn't completed.

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

I think someone might be hung up on anti-Catholicism, lol

 

[RND]

I think someone might be hung up on anti-Catholicism, lol

And I think someone might be taken in by their false doctrines.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[researcher]

I think someone might be hung up on anti-Catholicism, lol

And I think someone might be taken in by their false doctrines.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

There were false Christs and false prophets, in Israel, 1st century.

 

[RND]

I think someone might be hung up on anti-Catholicism, lol

And I think someone might be taken in by their false doctrines.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

There were false Christs and false prophets, in Israel, 1st century.

As there are now.

 

[parousia70]

I think someone might be hung up on anti-Catholicism, lol

And I think someone might be taken in by their false doctrines.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

There were false Christs and false prophets, in Israel, 1st century.

As there are now.

So you are saying that False Christs are NOT a sign of the end then?

 

[parousia70]

There fate was sealed when Christ was crucified. God gave them another 40 years to repent.

Then what did God do?

He allowed the temple to be razed

Allowed it to be razed or Ordained it razed?

Jesus certainly didn't come back at that time

No? all this was ordained to take place "When the Lord of the Vineyard Comes" after all...

the resurrection of the dead didn't take place

Prove this with scripture

Nero wasn't "the" antichrist

Of course not. The criteria for antichrist spelled out in 1 & 2 John is VERY specific, and Nero did not fit it at all.
He was the Beast however.

and the book of Revelation wasn't completed.

Prove this with scripture.