Jesus' Conception in Islam

[Lamech]

Christianity describes a woman who gave birth to the Son of God. Islam describes someone else bearing another Jesus. The Jesus of Mormonism is also another Jesus and the late Mormon prophet, Gordon Hinckley, said so. Why Islam can't admit it I don't know.
The Jesus of Christianity is our Lord and Savior through whom we come to the Father. The Jesus of Islam does not have that authority.

I Have To Ask What The Diffrent Between The Two Jesus , In The Qur'aan And Bible Other Than Qur'aan Says He A Prophet , And SOME Christians Claim Jesus Is His Own Father . The Way I See It Is Muslims Worship Muhammad And Christians Worship Jesus , When Both Are Only Messager Of The Most Hight .

 

[Sanitarium]

I Have To Ask What The Diffrent Between The Two Jesus , In The Qur'aan And Bible Other Than Qur'aan Says He A Prophet , And SOME Christians Claim Jesus Is His Own Father . The Way I See It Is Muslims Worship Muhammad And Christians Worship Jesus , When Both Are Only Messager Of The Most Hight .

This is completely irrelevant to this topic at hand.

 

[Lamech]

I Have To Ask What The Diffrent Between The Two Jesus , In The Qur'aan And Bible Other Than Qur'aan Says He A Prophet , And SOME Christians Claim Jesus Is His Own Father . The Way I See It Is Muslims Worship Muhammad And Christians Worship Jesus , When Both Are Only Messager Of The Most Hight .

This is completely irrelevant to this topic at hand.

Are you speaking for the Moderators ? Or trying to get something going between you and I .

 

[Sanitarium]

Are you speaking for the Moderators ? Or trying to get something going between you and I .

I quoted you so I'm talking to you. If I want to talk to the Moderators I'd use the "report post" button. I'm not trying to "start" anything - I'm asking you to stay on topic or open a new thread.

Thanks

 

[Gabe]

Of course we allow or even expect threads to go off-topic slightly, but when the original Poster requests that their thread be brought back on-topic, we encourage all participants to comply. Sanitarium is right; it would be nice to get this thread back on-Topic. Any thoughts on the OP?

 

[Lamech]

Of course we allow or even expect threads to go off-topic slightly, but when the original Poster requests that their thread be brought back on-topic, we encourage all participants to comply. Sanitarium is right; it would be nice to get this thread back on-Topic. Any thoughts on the OP?

I was only asking ques ; san be following me around to get something started he not slick . But I'll stay on the subject if you say so .

 

[Sanitarium]

I was only asking ques ; san be following me around to get something started he not slick . But I'll stay on the subject if you say so .

1. I'm female
2. I'm not 'following you around' - I have no interest in discussing anything but Islam so you will find me in this subforum (mostly).
3. It's my thread and I'll cry if I want to.

Now, back to the topic. Do you have any thoughts on the OP?

 

[Sallah]

To Sanitarium:

The other tafsir's and English translations are quite embarrassed by this and render it simply that she "guarded her chastity" and that Gabriel "blew into her garment/shirt/sleeve" LOL.

But that's exactly what the Tafsir says as well. Does not the Tafsir say the EXACT same thing that the Quran says. Allah (swt) commanded Jibril to blow into a gap in her GARMENT not into her vagina. It says the breath entered her womb through her vagina. All you've done is tried to 'cut out the middle man' which is not accurate. And guarded her chastity simply means she was a virgin which i'm sure you and every other Christian will agree. So i'm not sure why translators saying 'guarded her chastity' and the literal translation saying 'who remained chaste and guarded her vagina' would bother you so much. They both have the same meaning.

So part of the reason Muslims are so disgusted that God could possibly have a son (Christianity) is that they think God physically had sex with Mary - and why wouldn't they? In Islam, Allah sent Jibriel down to blow into Mary's vagina in order to conceive Isa (Jesus).

Where does the passage that you posted say that God physically had sex with Mary. IT DOESN'T. Nor does it say that Jibril blew into Mary's vagina. Neither the passage you posted nor the Tafsir you posted say this. So this is a false statement.

LOL even Google translator gets it right! Does that mean Google translator is better than the Classical Arabic experts, or that the experts were too ashamed to translate correctly?

The experts were not 'too ashamed to translate it correctly' you just have a misunderstanding of what 'literal translation' means. There is no word in Arabic for 'vagina' so there is no 'literal' translation of that word from Arabic to English. The reason Google return's the word vagina is because, while Google is translating it correctly, it is not giving you the LITERAL translation.

But I have shown you (and so has Google translator) that there is an equal word in English - it just happens to be embarrassing (in context). It has been done to make Islam look better (to non-Arabic speakers) than it actually is.

Yes there is an equal word in English but it is not the LITERAL translation of the word. and what is so embarrassing about the word vagina??

Please excuse my frankness, but I bring forward this mistranslation by Mushin Khan in order to show that the translators in many cases deliberately mistranslate things from Arabic, in order to make Islam look better. What I mean is that the mistranslations are not accidental, because they ALWAYS make Islam (and Muhammad) look better (and not worse, which you would expect sometimes if it were accidental).

Notice that not only has Mushin Khan mistranslated the above hadith, but we know he has done it deliberately because he added with no Euphemism. The fact is, this narration has Muhammad using a Euphemism, so Mushin Khan has added it as further misdirection and he has deliberately distorted the original text. This is, again, not a case of 'no suitable word in English'.

And i find it very funny that when you put this word that you highlighted in the exact same Google translator that you think so highly of the word is NOT 'anektaha' but 'onkiha' and i invite ANYONE to go to Google Translator and look up the highlighted word Sanitarium has posted and see if it translates to 'anektaha'.

to Rick W:

The Mary of Christianity bore the Son of God. The Mary of Islam did not.

oh really?? Please provide proof to back up your assumption.

I'm glad to see you believe the bible pointing out the scripture within to make your case.
Here's just a few other verses you may be interested in.

and as Jesus(as) explained in the Bible the term 'Son of God' simply means a Prophet so i don't see what all your scripture pointing out Jesus(as) calling himself the 'Son of God' is supposed do.

 

[Sanitarium]

But that's exactly what the Tafsir says as well. Does not the Tafsir say the EXACT same thing that the Quran says. Allah (swt) commanded Jibril to blow into a gap in her GARMENT not into her vagina.

No, read it again. What the translators are implying (and many say) is that Jibreel blew into a gap into her garment, yes, but many translate it as SLEEVE - when what it really says is that Jibreel blew into her garment and the breath went into her vagina and that is how isa was conceived. ie. no immaculate conception.

It says the breath entered her womb through her vagina. All you've done is tried to 'cut out the middle man' which is not accurate.

No, that's what you're trying to do - I have addressed the Arabic, and consulted native speakers. And you?

And guarded her chastity simply means she was a virgin which i'm sure you and every other Christian will agree.

I'm not a Christian

So i'm not sure why translators saying 'guarded her chastity' and the literal translation saying 'who remained chaste and guarded her vagina' would bother you so much. They both have the same meaning.

My big problem is that many Muslims claim "the Quran cannot be translated!" and "you can't convey the full meaning" when in fact in all instances, I, and many non/ex Muslims have found that you CAN translate it correctly, but it just has not been.

Where does the passage that you posted say that God physically had sex with Mary. IT DOESN'T. Nor does it say that Jibril blew into Mary's vagina. Neither the passage you posted nor the Tafsir you posted say this. So this is a false statement.

I'm sorry I was referring to a common Muslim tactic for attacking Christianity - not anything to do with what evidence that I have presented. It has been my extensive experience that the Muslims I discuss and debate with, the majority do actually believe that god had sex with Mary (in Christianity) to conceive Jesus. I am used to discussing Islam with those who are familiar with apologetics and the texts, so that is why I was not more clear. I will try to be more careful in future.

The experts were not 'too ashamed to translate it correctly' you just have a misunderstanding of what 'literal translation' means. There is no word in Arabic for 'vagina' so there is no 'literal' translation of that word from Arabic to English.

Farj literally means gap and is usually used to refer to vagina/womens private parts. In fact there are 2 almost identical verses - Sura Tahreem verse 12 (which I already quoted) and another in Sura al-Anbiya verse 91. (21:91)

The one in al-Anbiya uses the female prounon (i.e. blew into it (fem) ) and so seems to refer to Maryam.

The one in Tahreem uses a masculine pronoun (i.e. blew into it (masc) ) and this would seem to refer to "Farj" (gap/vagina).

Zamakhshari (in his tafseer) just says "He blew into her vagina" and seems to thing that the 'sleeve' tafseer is far-fetched. So we KNOW I am not mistaken - since another tafseer has rendered it correctly.

Is this another Quranic error? Or just another way for Muslims to play 'slippy slide' on the apologetics?

Logic would suggest that these two (almost identical) verses should use the same pronoun (the more likely imho being the female pronoun), but it may be that the scribe simply made a mistake and wrote the masc pronoun - after all Arabic grammar books were not yet around lol. But of course Muslims can't admit it could be a mistake so the tafseers do their best to explain yet another odd anomoly lol.

The reason Google return's the word vagina is because, while Google is translating it correctly, it is not giving you the LITERAL translation.

It means gap/vagina (as given to me by 4 native speakers both Muslim and non-Muslim).

Yes there is an equal word in English but it is not the LITERAL translation of the word. and what is so embarrassing about the word vagina??

It's about context - nothing by ITSELF, but to say that in order to conceive Isa, Allah sent Jibreel to blow into her. THAT is embarrassing - Allah must not be all-powerful.

And i find it very funny that when you put this word that you highlighted in the exact same Google translator that you think so highly of the word is NOT 'anektaha' but 'onkiha' and i invite ANYONE to go to Google Translator and look up the highlighted word Sanitarium has posted and see if it translates to 'anektaha'.

No, I do not hold Google translator in high esteem but I get my information from native speakers. However, in some cases, even Google translator confirms what the native speakers inform me of (and THAT is saying something). So IOW all you have given is an ad hom against me for using Google translator sometimes but did you notice I did not use it for this example? That is because I know it is not always reliable - and I only use it sometimes AFTER I receive information from native speakers.

Now, will you address the hadith there that was mistranslated by Mushin Khan as well as my clarifications on 66:12?

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Sallah]

No, read it again. What the translators are implying (and many say) is that Jibreel blew into a gap into her garment, yes, but many translate it as SLEEVE - when what it really says is that Jibreel blew into her garment and the breath went into her vagina and that is how isa was conceived. ie. no immaculate conception.

that depends on what your attempting to call immaculate conception. The verse says that the breath breathed into Mary (as) was the Spirit of Allah(swt), the Bible says the Holy Spirit 'came upon' Mary (as) and she conceived i'm trying to figure out where you feel the difference lies.

No, that's what you're trying to do - I have addressed the Arabic, and consulted native speakers. And you?

Well I wouldn't exactly call FaithFreedom.com 'native speakers' but if that's what you want to call them then by all means have fun.

I'm not a Christian

I apologize...I'm new here. well then as an atheist what do you think 'guarded her chastity' means?? I'm not trying to be facetious i'm just curious as to your answer.

My big problem is that many Muslims claim "the Quran cannot be translated!" and "you can't convey the full meaning" when in fact in all instances, I, and many non/ex Muslims have found that you CAN translate it correctly, but it just has not been.

That's because it is true in a sense. I wouldn't exactly say it 'can't' be translated because obviously it has been translated into thousands of languages. But you as someone who has shown great education have to admit that anytime you translate something into another language you will never get a 'word for word' translation. It's impossible. there are words in other languages that often only make sense iIN THAT LANGUAGE and that is the exact reason why every Quran that is translated the original Arabic is always kept in the book alongside the translation this is not just for 'show' this is to ensure that if there is a difficulty in translation the person can consult the Arabic but they have to find out what the Arabic correctly translates into.

What you seem to not be understanding is that it's not about the translation as ANY language can be translated into another. what Muslms are trying to get you to understand is that it is about ACCURACY of translation.

I'm sorry I was referring to a common Muslim tactic for attacking Christianity - not anything to do with what evidence that I have presented. It has been my extensive experience that the Muslims I discuss and debate with, the majority do actually believe that god had sex with Mary (in Christianity) to conceive Jesus. I am used to discussing Islam with those who are familiar with apologetics and the texts, so that is why I was not more clear. I will try to be more careful in future.

dont ' worry i ddin't take it personally. And while there are many Muslims who may feel that the Bible says Jibril had sex with Mary or that Allah(swt) had sex with Mary, I am not one of them. I belive that Bible says the exact same thing the Quran says in regards to this matter. And while the Bible may get a little sexually graphic at times i don't feel that this is one of those times.

Farj literally means gap and is usually used to refer to vagina/womens private parts. In fact there are 2 almost identical verses - Sura Tahreem verse 12 (which I already quoted) and another in Sura al-Anbiya verse 91. (21:91).

The one in al-Anbiya uses the female prounon (i.e. blew into it (fem) ) and so seems to refer to Maryam.

The one in Tahreem uses a masculine pronoun (i.e. blew into it (masc) ) and this would seem to refer to "Farj" (gap/vagina).

Now as i stated earlier your problem is in ACCURACY of translation. What you have to understand is that farj literally means any gap, tear, hole, etc in between 2 objects. however it CAN be used in reference to chastity and or modesty or KEEPING YOUR GARMENTS CLOSED not genitalia as referenced in not only the 2 passages you showed but in many others as well. Oh and by the way 66:12 and 21:91 are both talking about Mary and they both use the same word farjaha which is the feminine singular

Surah 23:5
Waallatheena hum lifuroojihim hafithoona
(furooj is the plual form or farj and ihim denotes both gender plural)

23:5 (Asad) and who are mindful of their chastity, [2]
23:5 (Y. Ali) Who abstain from sex,
23:5 (Picktall) And who guard their modesty

Qul lilmumineena yaghuddoo min absarihum wayahfathoo furoojahum thalika azka lahum inna Allaha khabeerun bima yasnaAAoona
(ahum denotes masc. plural)

24:30 (Asad) Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity: [36] this will be most con­ducive to their purity – [and,] verily, God is aware of all that they do.
24:30 (Y. Ali) Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
24:30 (Picktall) Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.

Waqul lilmuminati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna
(ahunna denotes fem. plural)

24:31 (Asad) And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof;
24:31 (Y. Ali) And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof;
24:31 (Picktall) And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent,

As you can see NOWHERE in any of these is it referenced as being genitals because that's not what the word means. All you did was skip past the part where he said she was CHASTE and tried to build a case on where he DEFINES what chastity means (ie. PROTECTED (covered...meaning clothing, her private parts...ie. MODEST). So we now know that farj has 2 meaning it''s literal meaning of being a gap, tear, hole etc inbetween 2 objects and 2) when in reference to a person it means CLOTHING and being MODEST AND CHASTE (ie. closing the gaps of your garments).

Zamakhshari (in his tafseer) just says "He blew into her vagina" and seems to thing that the 'sleeve' tafseer is far-fetched. So we KNOW I am not mistaken - since another tafseer has rendered it correctly.

I was not able to verify this as the only thing i could find on his Tafsir was the book and they wanted to charge $64 for it. so can you post a source please

Is this another Quranic error? Or just another way for Muslims to play 'slippy slide' on the apologetics?

I don't see how you can claim apologetics when the Tafsir clearly states that Allah(SWT) commanded Jibril to BLOW INTO HER GARMENT. you just, for some strange reason, continue to disregard this.

Logic would suggest that these two (almost identical) verses should use the same pronoun (the more likely imho being the female pronoun), but it may be that the scribe simply made a mistake and wrote the masc pronoun

no they DID use the samefem. sing. pronoun i just think you may not have looked at it correctly

21:91
Waallatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feeha min roohina wajaAAalnaha waibnaha ayatan lilAAalameena

66:12
Wamaryama ibnata AAimrana allatee ahsanat farjaha fanafakhna feehi min roohina wasaddaqat bikalimati rabbiha wakutubihi wakanat mina alqaniteena

after all Arabic grammar books were not yet around lol. But of course Muslims can't admit it could be a mistake so the tafseers do their best to explain yet another odd anomoly lol.

Actually the 'Arabic Grammar' book that was around was the Quran. The Quran itself dictated the majority of the grammar of Arabic.

It means gap/vagina (as given to me by 4 native speakers both Muslim and non-Muslim).

Don't take this personally but if you are going to claim that your only proof is '4 native speaking friends' then you would be better off (if i may quote some of my Atheist brothers and sisters) in saying the 'Great Flying Spegehtti Monster' told you. 2nd if farj means vagina as you claim then how do you explain it being used in conjunction with MEN as i have shown you above. Last time i checked men don't have vagina's :naughty Unless your going to claim that the Surah's are saying men should be mindful of their 'gaps'??

It's about context - nothing by ITSELF, but to say that in order to conceive Isa, Allah sent Jibreel to blow into her. THAT is embarrassing - Allah must not be all-powerful.

It's no different from Allah(swt) sending Jibril to Mary to inform her that the Holy Spirit will come to overshadow Mary...what's the difference???

No, I do not hold Google translator in high esteem but I get my information from native speakers. However, in some cases, even Google translator confirms what the native speakers inform me of (and THAT is saying something). So IOW all you have given is an ad hom against me for using Google translator sometimes but did you notice I did not use it for this example? That is because I know it is not always reliable - and I only use it sometimes AFTER I receive information from native speakers.

My advice is that you consult your "4 Great Flying Spegehtti Speakers" again. And yes i did notice you didn't use Google Translator for that example but I also noticed that you didn't use ANYTHING to back-up what you said about anektaha so YOUR the one that's ad hom'ing (i have no clue what ad hom means i'm just trying to sound smart )

Now, will you address the hadith there that was mistranslated by Mushin Khan as well as my clarifications on 66:12?

I normally don't comment on Hadith because in order to discuss Hadith it must first be established that the Hadith is authentic (this is the primary reason why Atheists/Christians love discussing Hadith). Since neither Atheists nor Christians know how to authenticate Hadith they simply claim 'this Hadith says this so it means that this is in error' or 'this Hadith says that so Islam thinks this'. It's actually kind of pointless and gets both tiring and amusing at the same time. But in regards to the Hadith you meantioned I have already shown you that the highlighted Arabic word you mentioned does NOT mean anektaha but onikha. I also proveded you with a way to verify that what i said was correct (Google Translator) you, on the other hand, have not shown that your highlighted word means anektaha nor provided anyway of verifying that what you say is correct other then you 'native speaking friends'. What i also noticed is that you hail Google translator as 'verifying' what your '4 native speaking friends' have said but in the very same post rebuke Google for it's 'unreliablity'...that's rather convenient...dont' you think???

Thanks for your reply!
Asallamm alaykum and i can't wait to receive yours

 

[Sanitarium]

the Bible says the Holy Spirit 'came upon' Mary (as) and she conceived i'm trying to figure out where you feel the difference lies.

True,but as Kathir's tafsir shows, Jibreel came to Mary in the form of a man and breathed into her. I know that many Islamic experts say that the Holy Spirit is actually Jibreel, but this is not the case in the Bible. ie. the holy spirit is not a physical being (or angel). If it were an immaculate conception then Jibreel is not needed. Why did Allah have to send Jibreel anyway? Couldn't he have just said "Be!" and it was?

Well I wouldn't exactly call FaithFreedom.com 'native speakers' but if that's what you want to call them then by all means have fun.

I did not go to FFI for my information thanks - it may be posted there also, but I got my info from other native speakers on other forums and by personal correspondence. When all else fails, insult the messenger eh? Like it or not there ARE native speakers who are now Ex-Muslims.

I apologize...I'm new here. well then as an atheist what do you think 'guarded her chastity' means?? I'm not trying to be facetious i'm just curious as to your answer.

What I think is irrelevant because I am only interested in what the texts say. Of course I could be wrong, but that's why I present what I have found on forums so people can correct me (this is no an admission that I'm wrong on this btw).

there are words in other languages that often only make sense iIN THAT LANGUAGE and that is the exact reason why every Quran that is translated the original Arabic is always kept in the book alongside the translation this is not just for 'show' this is to ensure that if there is a difficulty in translation the person can consult the Arabic but they have to find out what the Arabic correctly translates into.

While I agree, I do think there are equivalent sayings. If it is the case that there aren't (I am yet to come across one) then why would Allah make his revelation in such a deficient language? Is Islam only for Arabs?

What you seem to not be understanding is that it's not about the translation as ANY language can be translated into another. what Muslms are trying to get you to understand is that it is about ACCURACY of translation.

Well you might be, and I may agree with you in some instances. Unfortunately my experience with Muslims on this issue is not like that. For example, Quran 3:54, 7:99, 8:30, 10:21 & 13:42 state that Allah is the best makr. makr means cheater/deceiver/schemer - yet you find that nearly all the translators have translated it benignly as "planner" or "plotter". This is not accurate! There are words (I have given above) that *better* render the meaning of makr. When I say to Muslims "What does this word mean?" they say it means 'planner' but then I provide them the literal translation they say I am wrong because the "Quran cannot be translated". So if we are talking about accuracy of the translations, then I can show they just haven't been translated correctly (or with a closer meaning), not that they can't be.

Now as i stated earlier your problem is in ACCURACY of translation. What you have to understand is that farj literally means any gap, tear, hole, etc in between 2 objects. however it CAN be used in reference to chastity and or modesty or KEEPING YOUR GARMENTS CLOSED not genitalia as referenced in not only the 2 passages you showed but in many others as well.

The above was given to me (word for word) by a native Arab who is now an Ex-Muslim. He had been a Muslim for most of his life (he's now 39 years old). I asked specifically if it refers to garments or holes in garments and he said no. That is when he looked up Zamakhshari's tafseer for me. You can find his Youtube videos here

(furooj is the plual form or farj and ihim denotes both gender plural)

Yes so what? This is not about 66:12 or 21:91. You have already stated that farjaha is feminine. Quoting other verses where you specify that the word in question is referring to the masculine, does not disprove my claims about the 2 verses, nor does it refute the meaning of farj/farjaha as given.

It is like saying "his people" or "her people" - they are both people, but the prefix there tells you who it is referring to - they're still people.

Now, if you say that farjaha simply means the 'private parts' of a woman, then tell me, what is the private part of a woman called (that is involved in conception)?

As you can see NOWHERE in any of these is it referenced as being genitals because that's not what the word means.

Would you like a Quran-only (Native Arabic speaker) Muslim to weigh in? Here ya go!

if the Quran used the word Farj for both men and women, then the word must apply for both men and women, consequently the word Farg means private part.
.....

-> Now, in verse 24:31 we read the same things and more that are commanded to do by the believing women: ÙˆÙŽÙ‚ÙÂلْ Ù„ÙÂلْمÙÂؤْمÙÂنَات٠يَغْضÙÂضْنَ Ù…ÙÂنْ أَبْصَارÙÂÙ‡ÙÂÙ†ÙŽÙ‘ وَيَحْÙÂَظْنَ ÙÂÙÂرÙÂوجَهÙÂÙ†ÙŽÙ‘ , And say to the believing women that they lower their visions and guard their private parts , see the word ÙÂÙÂرÙÂوجَهÙÂÙ†ÙŽÙ‘ , Furjahunna, which is feminine plural, i.e. their (the women) private parts, which again is a generic word that means the parts of the human body that should not be exposed according to the Quran, with the women, it has to be at least their vaginas, their bums and their boobs. In fact the same verse has told us what the believing woman should expose.

Now I'm not saying I agree with Ahmed making this such a broad translation (to encompass ALL private parts) but there is +1 Muslim who does not agree with you that farj simply means any gap (ie. for garments. Want another? Here it is from Berber - a fanatical Muslim from FFI Forum:

This guy claim that prophet Muhamed explained the verse which is lie. I cheked it no word Muhamed is mentioned . Then he made another lie when he said the word Rahim means vagina . In Arabic vagina is Farj and not Rahim. rahim is place where the fetus developes . then another lie when he said he blew and she got horny while it says she reached her orgasm and not horny
Source

(sorry you can't contact him he was banned for anti-semitism).

Also, Kathir's tafsir on Q. 2:223 (excerpt):

(From the front or from behind, as long as that occurs in the Farj (vagina).)
source

All you did was skip past the part where he said she was CHASTE and tried to build a case on where he DEFINES what chastity means (ie. PROTECTED (covered...meaning clothing, her private parts...ie. MODEST).

Okay so it DOES mean private parts? Read the information given by my native Arab friend again - the verse appears to say that Jibreel blew INTO Mary and not her clothes!

So we now know that farj has 2 meaning it''s literal meaning of being a gap, tear, hole etc inbetween 2 objects and 2) when in reference to a person it means CLOTHING and being MODEST AND CHASTE (ie. closing the gaps of your garments).

No, this is YOUR interpretation and not mine; also not Kathir's and also not the interpretation of 3 native Arabic speakers that I have provided to you. It does not refer to gaps in clothing (ie. sleeves etc..) and no evidence has been presented to make that case yet.

I was not able to verify this as the only thing i could find on his Tafsir was the book and they wanted to charge $64 for it. so can you post a source please

It is not available online. However I will ask Hassan if he can make a video about it, where he can quote directly from the book for you

I don't see how you can claim apologetics when the Tafsir clearly states that Allah(SWT) commanded Jibril to BLOW INTO HER GARMENT. you just, for some strange reason, continue to disregard this.

I do not consider Kathir to be infallible and since all the native speakers I have asked so far do NOT agree that it can mean gaps in garments, but they say it means vagina or private part that Jibreel blew INTO, then I must be sceptical of Kathir's explanation of this event.

no they DID use the samefem. sing. pronoun i just think you may not have looked at it correctly

Read it again please - Hassan was not referring to Farjaha, but WHAT was being blown into. Here it is again:

The one in al-Anbiya uses the female prounon (i.e. blew into it (fem) ) and so seems to refer to Maryam.

The one in Tahreem uses a masculine pronoun (i.e. blew into it (masc) ) and this would seem to refer to "Farj" (gap/vagina).

Actually the 'Arabic Grammar' book that was around was the Quran. The Quran itself dictated the majority of the grammar of Arabic.

Tell me about diacritical marks please

Don't take this personally but if you are going to claim that your only proof is '4 native speaking friends' then you would be better off (if i may quote some of my Atheist brothers and sisters) in saying the 'Great Flying Spegehtti Monster' told you.

No that's not my only proof, but when I find something I always make sure to check it with people who would know. Since I know the Quran has not been translated correctly in other places, I depend on Native speakers to help me out in determining if the specific verse(s) I am looking at have been translated correctly too. No offence but I would not base my opinion solely on something a Muslim says, because unfortunately most of them are ignorant about their own texts.

2nd if farj means vagina as you claim then how do you explain it being used in conjunction with MEN as i have shown you above. Last time i checked men don't have vagina's :naughty Unless your going to claim that the Surah's are saying men should be mindful of their 'gaps'??

Farj means gap/vagina in context of referring to women (farjaha). I have already stated this. However it would be acceptable to me (at this point) to say it means 'private parts' as in genitals. But this still leaves you with the verses! What is the genital part of a female called? Since we have Jibreel blowing INTO it to conceive Isa, then I disagree with Ahmed's claim (above) that it simply means any 'private part' and must be referring to a 'gap' used for conception (ie. vagina). Do you disagree?

It's no different from Allah(swt) sending Jibril to Mary to inform her that the Holy Spirit will come to overshadow Mary...what's the difference???

Again, in the Bible, Jibreel only comes to inform Mary of what is going to happen; in the Quran, Jibreel is sent in the form of a man (ie. flesh and blood) to physically BLOW into Mary in order for this conception to happen. That is the difference here.

My advice is that you consult your "4 Great Flying Spegehtti Speakers" again.

Nice ad hom. Actually there were more arabic speakers involved in the translation/confirmation of that hadith, but what does it matter?

And yes i did notice you didn't use Google Translator for that example but I also noticed that you didn't use ANYTHING to back-up what you said about anektaha so YOUR the one that's ad hom'ing (i have no clue what ad hom means i'm just trying to sound smart )

Ad hominem is a personal attack on the argument maker instead of addressing the argument (ie. shooting the messenger). Which translation do you think is correct? Mushin Khan's or the one that I presented? Do you speak Arabic? (this is not an attack). If you do not, please consult an Arabic speaker like I have. I don't expect you to accept what I say just because I say it, I would hope you would check it out thoroughly.

I normally don't comment on Hadith because in order to discuss Hadith it must first be established that the Hadith is authentic (this is the primary reason why Atheists/Christians love discussing Hadith).

I discuss the ahadith because (most) Muslims accept them. If you all threw them out tomorrow that'd be the end of the discussion. I'm perfectly happy to play by your (Muslims) rules when discussing your texts. Forgetting all the other classifications for ahadith, we know at least that this narration is Sahih. Doesn't it warrant that you should look into the veracity of this one? However if you wish to go and verify it's authenticity please do and then get back to me

Since neither Atheists nor Christians know how to authenticate Hadith they simply claim 'this Hadith says this so it means that this is in error' or 'this Hadith says that so Islam thinks this'. It's actually kind of pointless and gets both tiring and amusing at the same time.

Well I do not know if this one is mutawatir as I have not checked - I was more concerned with the MISTRANSLATION of it by Mushin Khan and I don't really care about it's content. I'm not trying to make ANY point except that Mushin Khan has deliberately deceived here.

Yes I know about the "science" of the ahadith but I don't pay it much mind because I do not use the ahadith as the sole basis of my arguments (except in this case because it is directly regarding the translator).

Which of Bukhari's criteria do you think this narration would fail? ('isnad, 'adl or mat'n?). Again though, it is no matter because I don't give a flying Buraq about the contents of it but only Mushin Khan's mistranslation of it. Oh and why didn't he put (using no euphemism) in brackets as well since it was his addition to the text?

But in regards to the Hadith you meantioned I have already shown you that the highlighted Arabic word you mentioned does NOT mean anektaha but onikha.

LOL by using Google translator. Might try asking an Arabic speaker please. Google translator is not reliable (which is why I LOL'd in my OP that even Google got it right for Farjaha)

I also proveded you with a way to verify that what i said was correct (Google Translator)

Read above.

you, on the other hand, have not shown that your highlighted word means anektaha nor provided anyway of verifying that what you say is correct other then you 'native speaking friends'.

Okay, so one of us consulted native Arabic speakers, and the other is using Google translator to make his case. Which of us is more likely to be accurate here?

What i also noticed is that you hail Google translator as 'verifying' what your '4 native speaking friends' have said but in the very same post rebuke Google for it's 'unreliablity'...that's rather convenient...dont' you think???

No. I found the Farjaha verses first, and THEN asked Native speakers for their translations (without giving what I had found in order to avoid any type of bias). THEN I went to copy the word and accidentally clicked "translate' instead of copy and THAT is how I found out Google Translator translated it the same way - I ddn't rely on Google translator and I think anyone who does is in error. Everyone knows how unreliable Google translator is, which is why I LOL'd in my OP about it being accurate (to what I had found out already).

 

[Sanitarium]

Greetings Sallah,
My apologies for my slow reply! You can find Zamakshari 's tafsir online here at altafsir.com

Thanks!