Jesus....DID NOT....Use His God-Power

[Guest]

When one understands what takes place at the period of being born again, and the New Creature that is created that CANNOT sin, then the Scriptures become crystal clear as to what Jesus Christ really did on the cross at Calvary. Hopefully all will come to believe so that they too will become born of God.

Are you saying Solo, that when a person becomes born-again and are made a new Creature - that person can no longer sin? It appears that is what you are trying to teach when you say "the New Creature that is created that CANNOT sin".

However, 1 John 1:9 says that "if we confess our sisn, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Here we are being told that it is our duty to 'confess our sins' and that the grace of God will forgive our sins and 'cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'.

The regenerated person, born-again believer in Jesus Christ, no longer practices sin as they did prior. In other words, the born-again believer no longer does sin with active forethought. The idea of 'to make' implies actively involved with the process of sinning - ie: forethought, delight, desire, a purpose to sin.

1 John is saying that the regenerated person no longer takes delight in sin, does not actievly participate with delight or desire or forethought.

But this by no means suggests a 'sinless perfection' at the time of regeneration - which is clearly pointed out in 1 John 1:9 - that we are to confess our sins. To say that we cannot sin also contradicts 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

 

[Jay T]

If we agree that Jesus was true God and true man, wouldn't the fact that he is divine in nature make it impossible for him to sin?

Of course it was possible for Jesus to have committed sin......and that is what satan was counting on, to win the Great Controversy between himself and Jesus Christ.

All the miracles Jesus performed, was done thru the power of His Father, as Jesus NEVER used his own God-power, something which man does not have access to.

 

[Guest]

All the miracles Jesus performed, was done thru the power of His Father, as Jesus NEVER used his own God-power, something which man does not have access to.

We do not have access to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Solo]

Are you saying Solo, that when a person becomes born-again and are made a new Creature - that person can no longer sin? It appears that is what you are trying to teach when you say "the New Creature that is created that CANNOT sin".

However, 1 John 1:9 says that "if we confess our sisn, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Here we are being told that it is our duty to 'confess our sins' and that the grace of God will forgive our sins and 'cleanse us from all unrighteousness.'.

The regenerated person, born-again believer in Jesus Christ, no longer practices sin as they did prior. In other words, the born-again believer no longer does sin with active forethought. The idea of 'to make' implies actively involved with the process of sinning - ie: forethought, delight, desire, a purpose to sin.

1 John is saying that the regenerated person no longer takes delight in sin, does not actievly participate with delight or desire or forethought.

But this by no means suggests a 'sinless perfection' at the time of regeneration - which is clearly pointed out in 1 John 1:9 - that we are to confess our sins. To say that we cannot sin also contradicts 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us."

The natural man is the man prior to being born again. He has not been born again, and cannot understand the spiritual things around him. Only when the Holy Spirit quickens one to understand and belief can one be born again, and at this time is born of God. At this instance the natural man (physical man) then has an additional new creature (inward man) to contend with. The natural man is the flesh which is sold under sin, and in the flesh dwells no good thing. The inward man delights in the law of God and serves God. These two battle for supremacy during the sanctification period of a believer's life. The flesh is not born of God, but the New Creature, the Inward man is born of God. The man that walks in the flesh will sin, while the man that walks in the spirit will not sin. Paul teaches that these two factions continually war within a believer, and it is necessary to subject the flesh to the spirit in order to serve God. The born again, new creature cannot sin, while the flesh will continually sin if allowed to reign in a believer's life. Walking in the flesh is death while walking in the spirit is life. When the born again believer dies, his/her corrupt, mortal flesh dies, but his/her born again Spirit goes to the LORD. When Jesus returns, those that are in Christ Jesus will be resurrected with a new body, incorruptible and immortal to join with the soul/spirit of the believer.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:15-25

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:16-25

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 7:59-60

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54

 

[Guest]

So do tell, where is the arguement Solo?

 

[Solo]

So do tell, where is the arguement Solo?

If you agree with the Scripture that those who are born of God cannot sin, then there is no argument.

 

[Guest]

If you agree with the Scripture that those who are born of God cannot sin, then there is no argument.

are you referring to 'natural man' or 'inward man'?

 

[Solo]

are you referring to 'natural man' or 'inward man'?

The natural man is not born of God as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Guest]

Clearly the regenerated inner man cannot sin. Of this there is not dispute.

However, I would caution that this verse has been used to teach 'sinless perfection'. Is this the doctrine that you are claiming, solo?

 

[Solo]

Clearly the regenerated inner man cannot sin. Of this there is not dispute.

However, I would caution that this verse has been used to teach 'sinless perfection'. Is this the doctrine that you are claiming, solo?

There is no such thing as a regenerated man. A man is born again of God and lives in a corrupt, mortal flesh body until the return of Jesus Christ. That corrupt, mortal flesh will not be regenerated; and the born again New Creature is in no need of regeration as it is not sold to sin but born of God.

I do not see anywhere that I have promoted a doctrine of 'sinless perfection'. I do know that we have no excuse for sinning, as we can walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh; and we can do ALL things through Christ who gives us strength.

If you do not mind me saying so, you sound like you are changing your position as we go. I would be joyful if that were the case, but I suspect that you are either not grounded in your understanding or you are playing games.

 

[Guest]

There is no such thing as a regenerated man. A man is born again of God and lives in a corrupt, mortal flesh body until the return of Jesus Christ. That corrupt, mortal flesh will not be regenerated; and the born again New Creature is in no need of regeration as it is not sold to sin but born of God.

Of course the inner man is regenerated from it's former fallen nature. Once born-again the inner man is not in need of 'regeneration' again.

I do not see anywhere that I have promoted a doctrine of 'sinless perfection'. I do know that we have no excuse for sinning, as we can walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh; and we can do ALL things through Christ who gives us strength.

While we have a regenerated nature within us and an outer flesh that is still corrupt - nonetheless we, as a total person, have both working at the same time. Hence the struggle Paul referes to when he says that he does the very things he doesn't want to do. There is an internal struggle constantly going on and we need to rely on the Holy Spirit. However, when we do sin - and we will - we need to confess to God who is faithful and graveful to forgive.

If you do not mind me saying so, you sound like you are changing your position as we go. I would be joyful if that were the case, but I suspect that you are either not grounded in your understanding or you are playing games.

Please provide the evidence of me changing my position! I would humbly suggest that you are either making or have made pre-conceived notions about me and my positions.

 

[Solo]

Of course the inner man is regenerated from it's former fallen nature. Once born-again the inner man is not in need of 'regeneration' again.

The born of God, born again New Creature, "inner man" did not exist prior to being born of God in the natural man. There is no need for a regeneration of the born again New Creature as it had not existed prior to being born of God. Your understanding of the born again inward man having a "former fallen nature" is false, and contradictory of the Scriptures.

Many have been taught that man is regenerated by water baptism. This is a false teaching of the Roman Catholic institution, along with many "protestant denominations" such as the Church of Christ.

 

[Guest]

The born of God, born again New Creature, "inner man" did not exist prior to being born of God in the natural man. There is no need for a regeneration of the born again New Creature as it had not existed prior to being born of God. Your understanding of the born again inward man having a "former fallen nature" is false, and contradictory of the Scriptures.

Do not twist my words Solo. Prior to being 'born again' - we have a fallen nature. It is that nature that Jesus Christ regenerates or borns again. Something cannot be 'regenerated' if it did not previously exist. In other words, we had a inner nature that was corrupt, fallen, tainted with sin. It is that nature that Jesus Christ cleanses, renegerates and is born again.

[/quote]Many have been taught that man is regenerated by water baptism. This is a false teaching of the Roman Catholic institution, along with many "protestant denominations" such as the Church of Christ.[/quote]

Many have - but that is not me. As an Anabaptist I have a solid understanding of the role of baptism in a believers life - and it is not regeneration or salvation.

 

[Solo]

The born of God, born again New Creature, "inner man" did not exist prior to being born of God in the natural man. There is no need for a regeneration of the born again New Creature as it had not existed prior to being born of God. Your understanding of the born again inward man having a "former fallen nature" is false, and contradictory of the Scriptures.

Do not twist my words Solo. Prior to being 'born again' - we have a fallen nature. It is that nature that Jesus Christ regenerates or borns again. Something cannot be 'regenerated' if it did not previously exist. In other words, we had a inner nature that was corrupt, fallen, tainted with sin. It is that nature that Jesus Christ cleanses, renegerates and is born again.

I am not twisting your words. In fact, here are your words:

aLoneVoice wrote, "Of course the inner man is regenerated from it's former fallen nature. Once born-again the inner man is not in need of 'regeneration' again."

And:

aLoneVoice wrote, "While we have a regenerated nature within us and an outer flesh that is still corrupt - nonetheless we, as a total person, have both working at the same time."

Let me explain this very carefully so that you and I can understand what is being said.

First, all mankind is born as "natural" without an understanding of the spiritual. Once the "natural" man is quickened by the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God, he repents and believes on the name of Jesus Christ at which time a NEW BIRTH takes place. This NEW BIRTH is not a regeneration of anything that has existed in the past; it is a NEW BIRTH of a NEW CREATURE born of GOD.

Secondly, all who are born of God are walking in a corrupt, mortal flesh that must be subjected to the NEW CREATURE BORN OF THE SPIRIT otherwise a born again believer will sin. Before a believer is born again there was no portion to regenerate. The flesh will not be "regenerated" at the coming of Jesus Christ; the flesh will be CHANGED.

Paul calls the NEW CREATURE the INWARD MAN, and that INWARD MAN did not exist prior to being born of God at the point of repentence and belief on the name of Jesus Christ.

Many have been taught that man is regenerated by water baptism. This is a false teaching of the Roman Catholic institution, along with many "protestant denominations" such as the Church of Christ.

Many have - but that is not me. As an Anabaptist I have a solid understanding of the role of baptism in a believers life - and it is not regeneration or salvation.

Great. You are on solid ground with that comment. I have a good friend who attends a Mennonite church which descended from the 16th century Anabaptists.

 

[Jay T]

We do not have access to the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ was motivated by the Holy Spirit while on earth, how else did Jesus receive His daily strenght ?
Jesus spent much time in morning prayer, much time !

Remember that Jesus said that of Himself, He could do nothing.
Would a God say anything like that ?
NO !
Only a man would say such a thing as that.

Also remember that I'm not saying that Jesus had no God-Power within Himself, because He did.

God, was in Jesus the whole time.....But, Jesus DID NOT USE His own God-Power in the least.

Jesus had to live exactly as we have to....without supernatural power.

Notice this statement:
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

See the comparision ?

If Jesus had used His own God-Power....to overcome sin, then where does that place us, in overcoming sin ?

We do not have access to God-Power !

So, Jesus had to overcome with the same human reliance upon God, that man also has access to.

 

[cyberjosh]

The born of God, born again New Creature, "inner man" did not exist prior to being born of God in the natural man. There is no need for a regeneration of the born again New Creature as it had not existed prior to being born of God. Your understanding of the born again inward man having a "former fallen nature" is false, and contradictory of the Scriptures.

Wait a minute Solo. The Scripture does use the word regeneration, and the litteral Greek makes it no different in meaning than "born again" which means to be born into life. The Scriptural themes of spiritual life and death all point back to regeneration (being born again). I would ask you to clarify your position with Scripture, especially the Scriptures that use the word "regeneration". And there is a clear distinction that Paul makes between the Old Man and the New Man. The Old man I believe refers to our sinful flesh and we can indulge in it, as it has not disappeared yet (not until the redemption of our body as Paul talks about). The current battle takes place in our soul (the middle ground), the acts of choosing which one you will walk and live in: the New man (quickened by the Holy Spirit) or the Old man (corrupted by the flesh). That is the struggle found in Romans 7. We must move to experiencing the victory found in Romans 8 if we are going to persevere as Christians.

 

[Solo]

Wait a minute Solo. The Scripture does use the word regeneration, and the litteral Greek makes it no different in meaning than "born again" which means to be born into life. The Scriptural themes of spiritual life and death all point back to regeneration (being born again). I would ask you to clarify your position with Scripture, especially the Scriptures that use the word "regeneration". And there is a clear distinction that Paul makes between the Old Man and the New Man. The Old man I believe refers to our sinful flesh and we can indulge in it, as it has not disappeared yet (not until the redemption of our body as Paul talks about). The current battle takes place in our soul (the middle ground), the acts of choosing which one you will walk and live in: the New man (quickened by the Holy Spirit) or the Old man (corrupted by the flesh). That is the struggle found in Romans 7. We must move to experiencing the victory found in Romans 8 if we are going to persevere as Christians.

Being born again is not regeneration. Being born again is being born of God, being born from above. That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit. Being born of water is the physical birth, and being born of the Spirit is the spiritual birth. One is born of the Spirit at the moment that one repents and believes on the name of Jesus Christ.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

The inward man, the new creature did not exist until born of the Spirit, therefore cannot be regenerated. The old man, the physical man requires regeneration as it was born of the flesh which is corrupt and mortal. The battle is between the corrupt flesh and the born of God spirit. Walk in the spirit so that you do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. In the flesh dwells no good thing. The new creature that is born of God cannot sin, but the flesh is sold under sin and must be regenerated by walking in the born of God spirit.

In other words, the born again, born of God New Creature cannot sin according to 1 John 3:9, but the Old Man is sold under sin and in the flesh dwells no good thing according to Romans 7:14-25.

Can a person who is not born into the physical world be regenerated?
No. Why? Because he is not born yet.

Can the New Creature who is not born of God yet be regenerated? No. Why? Because the New Creature has not been born of God yet.

What is regenerated, the New Creature or Old Man? The Old man must come under the subjection of the born again spirit which delights in the law of God because the flesh serves the law of sin. How does this subjection take place? By the renewing of the mind.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

Here is Paul's writing to Titus speaking of regeneration: The kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared, not of works of righteousness that we have done, but according to HIS mercy he saved us. How? By the washing of regeneration AND renewing of the Holy Spirit. What is the washing of regeneration? It is the cleansing the flesh of all sin by crucifying it with Christ Jesus at the cross. What is the renewing of the Holy Spirit? It is the birth of the NEW CREATURE, the NEW INWARD MAN, the BORN OF GOD being that now lives inside the corrupt, mortal flesh.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

If you need further explanation please ask, or PM; whatever way you would like.
Thanks.

 

[Guest]

Solo - are you suggesting that when we are born as an infant - that we only possess the physical body or "outward man" as you call it?

I would suggest that we are born with an 'inner man' that is corrupt - and that when we are 'born again' that 'inner man' is regenerated - or "born again".

 

[Solo]

Solo - are you suggesting that when we are born as an infant - that we only possess the physical body or "outward man" as you call it?

I would suggest that we are born with an 'inner man' that is corrupt - and that when we are 'born again' that 'inner man' is regenerated - or "born again".

You have a good Roman Catholic concept of their teaching of regeneration. The problem is that the Holy Spirit births the New Creature at the moment of belief, not when water is sprinkled on someone.

The born of God portion of a believer did not exist prior to being born of the Spirit; therefore, the concept of regeneration is a teaching that does not align with the Scripture. The natural man cannot understand spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Baptism does not save anyone, being born of God does.

 

[Guest]

Who is talking about Baptism?