Jesus fulfilled the whole law, including the Sabbath

[SputnikBoy]

Can someone point me in the right direction in the bible, where Christ observed a Sabbath Day as the Jews did according to the Law of Moses?

Good point! :D

It seems to me that the way in which the Sabbath was observed changed over time periods along with the culture of the day. Isaiah 58:13-14, for instance, states that Sabbath-keeping should be a delight, certainly not a burden, certainly not something 'legalistic'. That particular scripture actually encourages one to observe the Sabbath.

So, those who keep the Sabbath today in a manner that displays 'legalism' (and I don't doubt that there are those who do so) have obviously got it backwards. There are many Sabbatarian Christians who look forward to Friday evenings and that delightful 24-hour period of the week that God set apart from the rest. In His wisdom, God knew that his human creation would need a regular break from the cares of the world. Creation, by the way, is where we get the weekly 7-day cycle from. Even atheists fall into line with this act of God!

 

[Heidi]

So where in the bible does it say that we are supposed to perform worldy works during the week and only rest from it on one day? In fact, it says the opposite, "A friend of the world is an enemy of God."

Do you not think that God wants us to spend everyday doing Godly work, Sputnik? If so, then why rest from that on any day of the week? :-?

And this is precisely why Jesus healed on the Sabbath; to show us the true meaning of the Sabbath which is love, not consulting a rule book to see which works are allowed and which ones are not. That is OT law just like cleansing oneself before entering the temple or sacrifincing animals or eating clean foods. The laws of the OT were written to show us just how pure we have to be to see God and how impossible it is. The NT gives the remedy for our inability to obey those laws by the permanent sacrifice once and for all of the unblemished lamb. Animals sacrificed, and rules and ritulas obeyed can never clean us enough to see God which is why they have to keep being performed forever which Hebrews 10:1-2 tells us;

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming-not the realities themselves. For this reason, it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once and for all, and would no longer have felt guilt for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

This is the perfect, perfect scripture to show that works do not save, only the blood of the lamb.

 

[Klee shay]

Does that mean there is no scripture in the bible which shows Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses?

I'm asking because I would like to know if he has.

 

[Heidi]

Does that mean there is no scripture in the bible which shows Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses?

I'm asking because I would like to know if he has.

No, Klee shay, there is not because Jesus again showed us the real meaning of the Sabbath which is love which we get from coming to him for rest, not just resting on one day of the week which the jews still think.

 

[Klee shay]

Okay - I was just wondering if he had actually observed a Sabbath Day. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[SputnikBoy]

So guibox does believe that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath law for us. Is that correct?

Oh, I don't know, Heidi, you'll have to wait for guibox to figure out what you're talking about here. All I know is that Jesus DID observe the Sabbath-command. So, since He fulfilled the Law (which would include the Sabbath) I guess He fulfilled the Sabbath-command also. Just make sure that you apply the REAL definition of 'fulfill' to this scripture ...y'hear? Hint: It has nothing to do with 'abolishing'!

If so, then why does he think he still has to obey the Sabbath like the Jews still do? :-?

If the Jews keep the Sabbath as 'a delight' and not as a 'legalistic chore' then, yes, I guess guibox WILL obey the Sabbath as the Jews do. Ask him. Incidentally, it isn't a case of one 'having to' do anything, Heidi. One CHOOSES to. You're making this sound like legalism by your very terminology. Is this intentional? Oh, by the way, the Sabbath wasn't made for the Jew ...it was made for MAN(kind). Mainstream Christians have a tendency to forget this.

Do you know what Jesus means when he said he has come to fulfill the law for us?

FOR us? And yes, I do believe that I know what Jesus means when He said that He He has come to fulfill the Law. He showed us how it can be done. The Law was fulfilled by Jesus' obedience to it. It was accomplished through the spirit (love) of obedience rather than the legalism of it. We're asked continually in the scriptures to keep the commandments of God. I really don't think that you have a case for your particular belief unless you abolish those particular scriptures. But then, abolishing inconvenient scriptures seems to be a common practice of mainstream Christianity.

It means we now don't have to fulfill the law by ourselves, Sputnik, which is impossible anyway.

One of the many things that sets us apart from a machine, Heidi, is that we have a free will to decide for ourselves. God didn't program us or take away our ability to think and to choose for ourselves. We have the freedom to obey God or to disobey God ...isn't that great? Or not? We're asked to keep the commandments. We can also choose NOT to keep the commandments. As long as we're asked to keep the commandments, then they are obviously not 'impossible' to keep. The Sabbath-command, however, DOES seem to be impossible for Christian traditionalists to keep. So, perhaps you're right.

So then, why be concerned about resting on Sundays? :o

Huh? Sunday is NOT the scriptural 'day of rest'. Saturday is. But, should you want to rest up on Sunday, Heidi, I don't have a problem with that. You don't NEED to though if you feel that you're somehow following a command of God. Did I understand your question?

and to whom do you give the credit for your obedience, Sputnik? To yourself, or to God? :-?

Well, I'm obviously going to give the wrong answer, aren't I, Heidi? Actually, I'm not. You use the word 'credit' while it shouldn't be a matter of credit at all. As mentioned, we are not machines. We were given a God-given brain to reason with, to figure things out for ourselves. We were also given the ability to make a concious choice to obey God or not obey God. Motivating one's mouth to speak, one's feet to move, one's hands to type out these messages are done with an amount of effort on the part of the individual. You seem to misconstrue concerted effort (as in 'action') by the individual as one's working their way to heaven. I give credit to God for sending Jesus Christ to save me. I don't necessarily give credit to God or to myself for my obedience (?) but it IS up to me whether I CHOOSE to be obedient. God doesn't 'program' me to be obedient. As said, that is up to me. I guess you can tell that I'm getting a tad weary ...who should I give credit to for that?

 

[Heidi]

Sputnik, do you think people can choose to understand Turkish without an interpreter? Yes or no.

You do not realize that being puppets on a string is the essence of complete surrender. Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." That is not only the exssence of complete surrender, but the essence of complete humility as well. We can learn a lot from Jesus Christ our Lord. :D

 

[SputnikBoy]

Okay - I was just wondering if he had actually observed a Sabbath Day. Thanks for answering my question.

You mean to say that Heidi actually answered your question satisfactorily?

Jesus, His disciples, PAUL (the Messiah of many present-day Christians), the Gentiles of Paul's day, observed the Sabbath Day. Jesus Himself acknowledged that the Sabbath would still be observed some 40 years after His death and resurrection (Matthew 24:20). In this scripture Jesus could well have made some reference to the Sabbath being phased out or/and being abolished. But He didn't. To Jesus, the Sabbath would still be a matter of great importance. That particular scripture should refute once and for all that the Apostles began to worship on Sunday (or the first day) in Paul's day. Such a notion is preposterous based on Matthew 24:20 alone. Over to you, Heidi.

 

[Heidi]

And Hebrews 4:1-9 explains what the Sabbath now means under the new convenant, even though Jesus explained it by his healing on the Sabbath. But the Jews were just as baffled as the present-day Pharisees are now baffled by Hebrews 4:1-9, which Paul explains in verse 2: "For we also have had the gospel preached to us just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them because they did not combine it with faith." And that explains why the Jews and the present-day Pharisees do not understand how Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for us. But those of us who have entered God's rest do.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik, do you think people can choose to understand Turkish without an interpreter? Yes or no.

That isn't a 'yes' or 'no' question. As long as one isn't Turkish or hasn't learned the Turkish language (which would require effort on the part of the individual) then 'choosing' not to understand isn't even in the equation. One either understands Turkish or one doesn't. :smt017

You do not realize that being puppets on a string is the essence of complete surrender.

You're right. I didn't realize that. At least I now know where you're coming from. And so does everyone else.

Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." That is not only the exssence of complete surrender, but the essence of complete humility as well. We can learn a lot from Jesus Christ our Lord. :D

Hmmm ...okay.

 

[Klee shay]

You mean to say that Heidi actually answered your question satisfactorily?

The question was:

Does that mean there is no scripture in the bible which shows Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses?

I'm asking because I would like to know if he has.

To which Heidi replied "No, Klee shay, there is not." So in that context she did answer the question to my satisfaction. I was asking for a scripture which demonstrates Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses.

If you know of one, then I will gladly thank you for answering my question as well. It's not about who's right in this particular discussion for me, I just wanted to know what Jesus observed by example.

 

[SputnikBoy]

And Hebrews 4:1-9 explains what the Sabbath now means under the new convenant, even though Jesus explained it by his healing on the Sabbath.

The ACTUAL definition of Hebrews 4:1-9 has been given so many times on this board, Heidi, and yet you still choose (oops ...sorry, I keep forgetting) to wear blinders. What's the point in presenting and defining this scripture yet again? No point.

However, just let me say this. If Hebrews 4:1-9 is the only source for your belief that the weekly Sabbath is done away with and that we now have rest in Christ EVERY day, then NO ONE except a biblical scholar would ever be able to argue this point. No 'average Joe' Christian could possibly fathom out the ACTUAL meaning of Hebrews 4:1-9, let alone come up with at least some 'credible' WRONG meaning. That particular scripture is hardly a 'user friendly' one. This is where the knowledge of a theologist or Bible scholar comes into play, Heidi. No theologist worth his salt would come up with YOUR particular interpretation of Hebrews 4:1-9. That's because it is NOT saying what you (probably sincerely) believe that it's saying. One cannot make a convincing case out of a scripture that has been misinterpreted.

As said, Hebrews 4:1-9 is a very complex piece of scripture. A mere surface reading won't do it ...not for any body. One needs a background in OT history, WHO Paul was talking to, and about WHOM Paul was talking about. One also needs to know that the 'TODAY' part of that scripture refers to the day on which to receive SALVATION. That is ...TODAY! Again, the 'average Joe Christian' would not be able to make heads nor tails out of it. One actually has to have a vivid imagination in order to get from that scripture what you seem to have gotten, Heidi. The point is ...such a scripture would never have been given as an indication that the Sabbath was no longer commanded. And it wasn't.

But the Jews were just as baffled as the present-day Pharisees are now baffled by Hebrews 4:1-9,

Um ...it ain't just the Jews, Heidi ...

which Paul explains in verse 2: "For we also have had the gospel preached to us just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them because they did not combine it with faith." And that explains why the Jews and the present-day Pharisees do not understand how Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for us. But those of us who have entered God's rest do.

(Sigh) I give up. :smt021

 

[SputnikBoy]

You mean to say that Heidi actually answered your question satisfactorily?

The question was:

[quote:5b92f]Does that mean there is no scripture in the bible which shows Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses?

I'm asking because I would like to know if he has.

To which Heidi replied "No, Klee shay, there is not." So in that context she did answer the question to my satisfaction. I was asking for a scripture which demonstrates Jesus observing the Sabbath according to the Law of Moses.

If you know of one, then I will gladly thank you for answering my question as well. It's not about who's right in this particular discussion for me, I just wanted to know what Jesus observed by example.

Gotcha. The Bible doesn't appear to specify the 'dos' and the 'do nots' of the Sabbath in the NT. Nor do (most, hopefully) Christian Sabbatarians of today. Other than the fact that Jesus got the noses of the Pharisees out of joint for not keeping it in the way that they believed He should, the Bible simply implies Sabbath observance as 'a given'. We ARE told that keeping the Sabbath was 'customary' for Paul as well as Jesus.

[/quote:5b92f]

 

[Klee shay]

the Bible simply implies Sabbath observance as 'a given'. We ARE told that keeping the Sabbath was 'customary' for Paul as well as Jesus.

If you could show the scriptures which say Jesus kept the Sabbath, and that Sabbath observance is a 'given', it would be appreciated.

 

[Heidi]

And Hebrews 4:1-9 explains what the Sabbath now means under the new convenant, even though Jesus explained it by his healing on the Sabbath.

The ACTUAL definition of Hebrews 4:1-9 has been given so many times on this board, Heidi, and yet you still choose (oops ...sorry, I keep forgetting) to wear blinders. What's the point in presenting and defining this scripture yet again? No point.

However, just let me say this. If Hebrews 4:1-9 is the only source for your belief that the weekly Sabbath is done away with and that we now have rest in Christ EVERY day, then NO ONE except a biblical scholar would ever be able to argue this point. No 'average Joe' Christian could possibly fathom out the ACTUAL meaning of Hebrews 4:1-9, let alone come up with at least some 'credible' WRONG meaning. That particular scripture is hardly a 'user friendly' one. This is where the knowledge of a theologist or Bible scholar comes into play, Heidi. No theologist worth his salt would come up with YOUR particular interpretation of Hebrews 4:1-9. That's because it is NOT saying what you (probably sincerely) believe that it's saying. One cannot make a convincing case out of a scripture that has been misinterpreted.

As said, Hebrews 4:1-9 is a very complex piece of scripture. A mere surface reading won't do it ...not for any body. One needs a background in OT history, WHO Paul was talking to, and about WHOM Paul was talking about. One also needs to know that the 'TODAY' part of that scripture refers to the day on which to receive SALVATION. That is ...TODAY! Again, the 'average Joe Christian' would not be able to make heads nor tails out of it. One actually has to have a vivid imagination in order to get from that scripture what you seem to have gotten, Heidi. The point is ...such a scripture would never have been given as an indication that the Sabbath was no longer commanded. And it wasn't.

But the Jews were just as baffled as the present-day Pharisees are now baffled by Hebrews 4:1-9,

Um ...it ain't just the Jews, Heidi ...

which Paul explains in verse 2: "For we also have had the gospel preached to us just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them because they did not combine it with faith." And that explains why the Jews and the present-day Pharisees do not understand how Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath for us. But those of us who have entered God's rest do.

(Sigh) I give up. :smt021

Sorry, but I only found out about this interpretation in an international bible study which I am attending. And when this scripture was presented to us, we had no idea how the bible study interpreted it to us until after we each came up with our own interpretation. So no, your comment that no scholar would come up with this is not only false, but based on ignorance as well.

Jesus says that we have one teacher and that is the Christ. Do you believe him? If so, then why do you even mention the word "scholars" as sources to which we should look up to as the truth? That's what the secular world does! That's the only way they decide what's right and wrong is by the majority because the secular world doesn't know the truth!

But we do, because as Paul said; "We have the mind of Christ." So there is no excuse for a Christian to refer people to any kind of scholar if one truly believes that "we have the mind of Christ."

Hebrews 4:1-9 is crystal clear that "For there remains then a Sabbath rest for the people fo God; for anyone who enters that rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." There is absolutely no reason for the author to use the word Sabbath when speaking about entering God's rest if the Sabbath doesn't meant coming to Jesus for rest.

So I suggest you look through all of scripture and see what the phrase "Entering God's rest" means because it is always used to mean the messiah. Hebrews 4:1-9 defines the Sabbath for us and I will not say it is a lie. Sorry.

 

[SputnikBoy]

the Bible simply implies Sabbath observance as 'a given'. We ARE told that keeping the Sabbath was 'customary' for Paul as well as Jesus.

If you could show the scriptures which say Jesus kept the Sabbath, and that Sabbath observance is a 'given', it would be appreciated.

Luke 4:16 tells us that preaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath Day was customary for Jesus. In other words, it was 'a given'.

 

[Heidi]

So how can Jesus speak in a temple when there's no one there? :o He obviously had to do it on the day the Jews were there which was what the Jews called the Sabbath. I got news for you, Sputnik, Jesus was not a slave to the law or the Sabbath which is why he was called; "Lord of the Sabbath." Under the new convenant he replaces the law and the Sabbth with his blood, which is now why paul said we are no longer under law but under grace. The law now only exists to convict us of sin.

 

[SputnikBoy]

So how can Jesus speak in a temple when there's no one there? :o He obviously had to do it on the day the Jews were there which was what the Jews called the Sabbath. I got news for you, Sputnik, Jesus was not a slave to the law or the Sabbath which is why he was called; "Lord of the Sabbath." Under the new convenant he replaces the law and the Sabbth with his blood, which is now why paul said we are no longer under law but under grace. The law now only exists to convict us of sin.

There were people in the synagogue because they were being obedient to a command of the Father of Jesus ...God. Or, we might say that it was Jesus HIMSELF who initiated the sabbath at Creation ...? Obedience, by the way, does not equate to 'slavery of the law'. And, Paul also preached to the Gentiles on the Sabbath ...and not always in the synagogue. Check out Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:42; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; and 18:4.

Do you keep the law of the land, Heidi? Do you run red lights? Yes? No? All sane people know the basic laws of the land and they DON'T need to consult the Law Book in order to keep or break them. The laws are written on their hearts, so to speak. Comparatively few go out of their way to break the law ...not because they're slaves to it but because being obedient to it is beneficial for everyone. I would even go out on a limb here and suggest that, even if the laws of the land were abolished tomorrow, all 'savvy' people would still keep them. So, it has little to do with 'the letter' of the Law, Heidi.

In the case of the Ten Commandments, commandments 5-10 are those that are beneficial for all humankind. They are written on the heart. Commandments 1-4 are those that separate the Christian from the nonChristian. This is perhaps why they are referred to as 'the greatest of the commandments'. They, too, are written on the heart. Do you agree or disagree with this, Heidi?

It makes no sense to me why a Christian would even WANT to abolish ANY of the commandments, let alone Christians forming a militant group on forums such as this to basically DEMAND their abolition. Even children desire some form of discipline and 'rules' in their lives. It denotes LOVE for them by their parents. And, obedience to the 'rules' makes for one happy family. One doesn't need to be Einstein to figure this out.

 

[Heidi]

I don't abolish any of the commandemtns. I keep the Sabbath holy because the Sabbath is Jesus Christ our Lord which iHewbrews 4:1-9 tells us and is precisely why he is called "Lord of the Sabbath." But if people want to honor a certain day of the week, then they are free to do so. But if they think that that will make them holy, they are sorely mistaken. The only thing that makes us holy is the blood of the lamb, period. Jesus was our permanent sacrifice once and for all. And if people disagree with that then they need to read Hebrews 6 and 7 and believe it. Our good deeds are now done to thank and love God for what he did for us, not to try to manipulate God into loving us. God gave his love to us freely even though we never did or never will merit it, which is why it's called God's grace. So I am done with this thread.

 

[SputnikBoy]

But if people want to honor a certain day of the week, then they are free to do so. But if they think that that will make them holy, they are sorely mistaken.

See, this is where you continue on a like a broken record, Heidi. You can't seem to reconcile in your own mind that one really CAN be obedient to God's commands without any selfish motives. It has nothing to do with one's being made 'holy'. Hoo-boy! :smt022

It's been nice debating this topic with you. But, if you choose to leave the thread, Bye! :smt006