Jesus fulfilled the whole law, including the Sabbath

[Klee shay]

Luke 4:16 tells us that preaching in the synagogue on the Sabbath Day was customary for Jesus. In other words, it was 'a given'.

Thank you for your reply. I read the scripture quoted and a few passages afterwards, and I wondered if Luke 4:31 "And came down to Capernaum, a city of Gaililee, and taught them on the sabbath days," has more to do with the example Jesus set since Luke 4:16.

It was necessary for Jesus to read in the synagogue "as was his custom" that day, so then Luke 4:21 "And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears," was fulfilled.

Ever after Jesus Ministered on the Sabbath, "as was his custom" afterwards. While I accept Luke 4:16 as demonstrating that indeed Jesus had attended the synagogue on the Sabbath and observed the Law of Moses as a "given" at that time, it was never the same after he was thrown out of the synagogue. It then became a given that Jesus challenged all the Laws of Moses on the Sabbath or not.

I understand the point you are trying to make and it has some merit, only it cannot be made in the same folly the Pharises adopted. It may be a different time and a different set of customes as per our society, but the message of tradition "as was a custom" even by Jesus standards, sounds somewhat like an idol and possibly a stumbling block to our faith.

The Sabbath needn't become a stumbling block, so long as we see where and why the Sabbath changed AFTER the second convernant was made in the blood of Christ. I can understand why Heidi calls Jesus the "Lord of the Sabbath", because if we don't see why and where it originates it's merely an empty gesture - somewhat like the Pharises; and spiritually it doesn't bring us any closer to our Lord.

As I am learning in my walk however, some people really need the ritual of religion (tradition) to keep them founded in their faith. It's better to be striving to find the Lord rather than not caring at all. As is all our custom however, we tend to harden our hearts to what we don't understand and observe it with heresy markings. Just so long as when the Lord calls us to a deeper understanding, we can hear and obey. Better we harden our hearts to our own desires than to that of our Lord's.

 

[Imagican]

Heidi my friend,

Don't you know by now that all you can do is plant the seed?

I agree with your understanding of the Sabbath. When accosted by the religious order of the time, Christ explained that EVERY DAY is the Lord's day. I don't know how difficult this could possibly be to understand.

There will ALWAYS be those that refuse to SEE the truth and continue in their traditions. It was that way in the time of Christ and this will not change until the harvest.

I AM NOT A JEW. The ten commandments or the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other laws given to the jews DO NOT PERTAIN TO ME. I would NEVER choose to return to such loss of freedom. NO, not freedom to sin, but freedom to live for and love God REGARDLESS of my shortcomings.

We are to do GOOD EVERYDAY. Thank God continuously in our prayers for sending His Son to die for our sins. The temple was destroyed and never to be rebuilt again for the sake of sacrifice. Don't you get it? Christ was THE SACRIFICE!!!!!

If you continue to believe that Christ or God live in a temple, you negate the death of Christ and what it stands for. The temple IS CHRIST.

And Christ didn't destroy the law, nor did he destroy the Sabbath. He fulfilled the law and Sabbath in that all the prophecy of the past was fulfilled in His birth and death and resurrection. We are to glory in Christ EVERYDAY. Thank Him always for His sacrifice, and rejoice continuously through Him with the Lord.

There was NEVER a 'special' day for any other than those that owed this to God for all that He blessed them with, (His chosen people: Jews, Hebrews, whatever). Upon their delivery from bondage, they were joined with God as never before and because of this they were bound to follow His commandments.

The apostles were all Jews remember? Peter didn't even believe that the Gentiles were saved for a long time after the death of Christ. Old habits die hard and this is no different than the Sabbath.

If you believe in the Sabbath, you MUST believe in the ENTIRE SABBATH. That means that you can't just 'go to church' on the Sabbath and fulfill the laws of the Sabbath, but you must abide by ALL THE LAW OF THE SABBATH or you've done nothing. Read the laws of the Sabbath as given to the Hebrews by Moses and you will quickly see how little of it is even followed by those that claim we must continue this useless tradition.

I choose freedom. Freedom from the laws of the past and their ability to destroy or prevent my relationship with God through His Son. If I choose to believe that I must obey the law or die, then I am bound to obey ALL LAW. Funny, those that teach this rubbish DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE LAW, much less live it.

The Sabbath is just another commandment that I am incapable of following and to try is to say to Christ, "You didn't need to die for me. I don't need you because I can live the laws of God without the need for His Son to die for me." This is incomprehendible to me. I NEED Christ. I NEED His freedom that He offers. I NEED God's love and compassion and I THANK HIM that he loved me so, even when I was yet a sinner, that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN to die for me so that I wouldn't have to.

For me to even try to follow the LAW is a loosing proposition from the onset. I am not fooled by men that teach such tradition. Was David saved? How about Peter? And Paul who in the beginning was arresting and bringing Christians to be imprisoned or worse, but following the law the whole time?

Sin is NOT what the church teaches it to be. Sin is NOTHING more than man following HIS WILL INSTEAD OF THE FATHER'S. God loves us. He sent His Son for a purpose. That purpose was to fulfill the law, NOT BRING US BACK INTO IT.

If you truly believe in Christ and accept Him into your heart as your savior, you WILL begin to live for Him as Him. This will take away the individuals desire to work against Him and the Father. This also takes time.

People, don't even think of letting satan convince you of such lies that take away the 'good' things that have been offered you. All the law can do is show you that you need Christ in your life. Satan will try his best to convince you to try and follow the law so he can show you what a looser you truly are. Accept the fact that you are a looser and believe in Christ and the purpose for which He died for us and allow His healing grace make winners of you all.

 

[Imagican]

As I am learning in my walk however, some people really need the ritual of religion (tradition) to keep them founded in their faith. It's better to be striving to find the Lord rather than not caring at all. As is all our custom however, we tend to harden our hearts to what we don't understand and observe it with heresy markings. Just so long as when the Lord calls us to a deeper understanding, we can hear and obey. Better we harden our hearts to our own desires than to that of our Lord's.

Amen brother.

Klee shay,

Bravo, my friend. This is what I'm talkin' about!!! Understanding!! You have offered understanding deeper than ANY TRADITION and I commend you for it. You have no idea how refreshing it is to be filled with joy when seeing that there are those that understand the truth.

You have offered something that I have refused to acknowledge until now. I have continually been haunted with the realization that the churches are teaching a 'dead religion' and the people need to flee them. You have offered that which will allow me a bit more peace. Instead of holding animosity towards those that teach the useless traditions of the past and those that refuse to see and accept the truth, I now have a more open understanding of my obligation.

Before I could never see the concept which you offered. You are absolutely right. Struggling to find the truth is much more desirable than refusing to even heed to the idea that there is 'truth'. So, obviously I have been a bit harsh in my condemnation of the churches. I still maintain that they don't teach the 'truth', but perhaps following them instead of NOTHING BUT SELF could bring about truth to some.

Thanks for your post. A truly inspiring message.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Heidi my friend,

Don't you know by now that all you can do is plant the seed?

I agree with your understanding of the Sabbath. When accosted by the religious order of the time, Christ explained that EVERY DAY is the Lord's day. I don't know how difficult this could possibly be to understand.

There will ALWAYS be those that refuse to SEE the truth and continue in their traditions. It was that way in the time of Christ and this will not change until the harvest.

I AM NOT A JEW. The ten commandments or the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other laws given to the jews DO NOT PERTAIN TO ME. I would NEVER choose to return to such loss of freedom. NO, not freedom to sin, but freedom to live for and love God REGARDLESS of my shortcomings.

We are to do GOOD EVERYDAY. Thank God continuously in our prayers for sending His Son to die for our sins. The temple was destroyed and never to be rebuilt again for the sake of sacrifice. Don't you get it? Christ was THE SACRIFICE!!!!!

If you continue to believe that Christ or God live in a temple, you negate the death of Christ and what it stands for. The temple IS CHRIST.

And Christ didn't destroy the law, nor did he destroy the Sabbath. He fulfilled the law and Sabbath in that all the prophecy of the past was fulfilled in His birth and death and resurrection. We are to glory in Christ EVERYDAY. Thank Him always for His sacrifice, and rejoice continuously through Him with the Lord.

There was NEVER a 'special' day for any other than those that owed this to God for all that He blessed them with, (His chosen people: Jews, Hebrews, whatever). Upon their delivery from bondage, they were joined with God as never before and because of this they were bound to follow His commandments.

The apostles were all Jews remember? Peter didn't even believe that the Gentiles were saved for a long time after the death of Christ. Old habits die hard and this is no different than the Sabbath.

If you believe in the Sabbath, you MUST believe in the ENTIRE SABBATH. That means that you can't just 'go to church' on the Sabbath and fulfill the laws of the Sabbath, but you must abide by ALL THE LAW OF THE SABBATH or you've done nothing. Read the laws of the Sabbath as given to the Hebrews by Moses and you will quickly see how little of it is even followed by those that claim we must continue this useless tradition.

I choose freedom. Freedom from the laws of the past and their ability to destroy or prevent my relationship with God through His Son. If I choose to believe that I must obey the law or die, then I am bound to obey ALL LAW. Funny, those that teach this rubbish DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE LAW, much less live it.

The Sabbath is just another commandment that I am incapable of following and to try is to say to Christ, "You didn't need to die for me. I don't need you because I can live the laws of God without the need for His Son to die for me." This is incomprehendible to me. I NEED Christ. I NEED His freedom that He offers. I NEED God's love and compassion and I THANK HIM that he loved me so, even when I was yet a sinner, that He sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN to die for me so that I wouldn't have to.

For me to even try to follow the LAW is a loosing proposition from the onset. I am not fooled by men that teach such tradition. Was David saved? How about Peter? And Paul who in the beginning was arresting and bringing Christians to be imprisoned or worse, but following the law the whole time?

Sin is NOT what the church teaches it to be. Sin is NOTHING more than man following HIS WILL INSTEAD OF THE FATHER'S. God loves us. He sent His Son for a purpose. That purpose was to fulfill the law, NOT BRING US BACK INTO IT.

If you truly believe in Christ and accept Him into your heart as your savior, you WILL begin to live for Him as Him. This will take away the individuals desire to work against Him and the Father. This also takes time.

People, don't even think of letting satan convince you of such lies that take away the 'good' things that have been offered you. All the law can do is show you that you need Christ in your life. Satan will try his best to convince you to try and follow the law so he can show you what a looser you truly are. Accept the fact that you are a looser and believe in Christ and the purpose for which He died for us and allow His healing grace make winners of you all.

Whew ...quite a rant there Imagican. I won't even begin to address your entire post. I just need to point out one thing, however. The absolutely silly thing about this entire discussion is the fact that, for the most part, most or all of you Christians on this board believe in the Ten Commandments anyway. Hands up ...how many of you don't believe in them and teach others to disobey them? How many of you believe you're keeping the 4th-commandment by worshipping Sunday? Most of you, I'll bet ...or at least you probably were until you were enlightened by the Sabbatarian view.

The Christians of today seem to be feigning helplessness at the mere thought of keeping the first four commands that pertain to God, the final six that pertain to neighbor. I'm far from being a legalist but I see NONE of the Ten even remotely putting us under bondage. What is the problem with some of you people? Please ...read them again, one through ten. Mainstream Christianity is preaching a religion that requires no commitment from the individual ...just lip service it would seem. It seems to promote all blow and no go. We're told over and over and over again in the NT to keep God's commandments as an indication that we love Him. Since you hate the commandments so much, Imagican, please explain these texts before we throw them out too.

In conclusion, this 'I'm simply too lazy or helpless to actually DO anything actively to let my light shine to others' doctrine is a relatively recent phenomenon. While the Christian Church in the past may have never been aware of the Sabbath issue or they otherwise decided that it didn't matter, they at least knew there were guidelines to follow. Abolishing the reason for being a Christian is a modern trend. God help us!

 

[guibox]

Whew ...quite a rant there Imagican. I won't even begin to address your entire post. I just need to point out one thing, however. The absolutely silly thing about this entire discussion is the fact that, for the most part, most or all of you Christians on this board believe in the Ten Commandments anyway. Hands up ...how many of you don't believe in them and teach others to disobey them? How many of you believe you're keeping the 4th-commandment by worshipping Sunday?

Exactly, Sputnik. The whole issue is merely a futile exercise in semantics and redundancies because NC Christians will not kill, commit adultery, worship other gods or steal anymore than an OC would have.

The whole problem is the 4th commandment.

However, I must clarify that all the 'law abrogators' on this forum seem to follow the Lutherian view of the Sabbath (all the law including a holy day was done away with) and not the Calvinistic view (Sunday is the new Sabbath and all characteristics of the 4th commandment apply to Sunday). The Calvinistic followers do believe the commandments are still binding, just that the Sabbath was done away with because it was Jewish and Christ's resurrection transferred the solemnity of the Sabbath to Sunday. This was PJP II's view on the matter as well.

The Christians of today seem to be feigning helplessness at the mere thought of keeping the first four commands that pertain to God, the final six that pertain to neighbor. I'm far from being a legalist but I see NONE of the Ten even remotely putting us under bondage.

Yes, this is the hypcritical conclusion one comes to by furthering this foolish view. Because I believe the ten commandments are important and binding and I choose not to kill, by the power of God in my life, I am a legalist, 'under the law' and 'under bondage'. But a 'law abrogator' doesn't kill because he 'loves his neighbor' and 'is under grace' it is not considered legalism.

:o??

How foolish it all is...

Again, it all comes back to having to observe that dreaded 4th commandment

Mainstream Christianity is preaching a religion that requires no commitment. It seems to promote all blow and no go.

Yes. The spirit doesn't work in a vacuum. If we are truly saved by grace and we love Christ, we will show it by obedience. The bible teaches this over and over again by Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John. Obedience is not legalism and 'faith without works is dead'.

We keep God's commands BECAUSE we are saved, not to BE saved.

Those of us who believe the 10 commandments are still binding obey out of love just like those who believe they are 'under grace' (another misunderstood concept).

 

[Klee shay]

I have continually been haunted with the realization that the churches are teaching a 'dead religion' and the people need to flee them. You have offered that which will allow me a bit more peace.

I know the feeling and it's only the Lord's truth which has brought me peace as well.

Jesus had no-one to fear while he lived and he has no-one to fear now he has been resurrected and on the right hand side of God. Satan cannot cast out Satan but the Lord has already won - the battle for a Christian is not to be deluded by the strength of the enemy.

Continuing in the Lord's walk of peace and freedom without contemplating what the enemy is actually achieving - is living the truth as Jesus saw it. Jesus only saw his father's will and the enemy was of no consequence.

It is the flesh we writhe in which deceives us. The flesh will lament, seek justice at any cost and will cast out good along with the bad, for the flesh cannot discern that which is spiritual and the Lord's. It's a difficult lesson to learn, but gradually the spirit discerns what is flesh writhing and what is the Lord's true righteousness.

No-one can argue with the Lord's will - not even the enemy. When we argue about what is God and his way, we argue in the flesh and not the spirit. If we were to discern in spirit then there would be no conflict - only unity. For as Satan cannot cast out Satan, God sees the true path of righteousness and it cannot be argued with in his spirit.

Peace in Him.

 

[cj]

Those of us who believe the 10 commandments are still binding obey out of love just like those who believe they are 'under grace' (another misunderstood concept).

This is a lie from the pit of hell, for the truth is none keep all ten commandments at the same time. God Himself has declared this in His word.

You are a liar if you say you have kept all ten commandments at the same time even for a second.

And if you haven't, and I say you haven't (for God has said it), then you have not kept the 4th commandment; for if you break one you have broken them all.


Men lie when they say they are keeping the 4th commandment by keeping the OT form of Saturday rest and worship.


In love,
cj

 

[guibox]

Those of us who believe the 10 commandments are still binding obey out of love just like those who believe they are 'under grace' (another misunderstood concept).

This is a lie from the pit of hell, for the truth is none keep all ten commandments at the same time. God Himself has declared this in His word.

A little dramatic aren't you, cj? :roll:
I take it you go out and kill and steal and commit adultery and worship false gods, then? No? I guess you're keeping the law, aren't you?

You make me laugh, cj. Obedience and love work hand in hand. "Faith without works is dead" "Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!". You think we aren't supposed to do anything?? Your problem is thinking that as soon as we try and obey some law we are working our way to heaven or something. Give me a break.

I guess you observe the law in your heart completely as an automaton without any conscious choice on your own?

"If YOU love me, KEEP my commandments."

There is a conscious choice to obey out of love. The spirit and grace don't work in a vacuum, cj.

You are a liar if you say you have kept all ten commandments at the same time even for a second.

No. I am a liar if I say I have no sin and that I'm righteous because I keep the commandments. Again I ask...do you steal sin and destroy or have you made a conscious effort through the spirit not to do these things?

Men lie when they say they are keeping the 4th commandment by keeping the OT form of Saturday rest and worship.,
cj

i guess both Christ and Paul were liars as well as they kept the Sabbath. Again, your's and Heidi's gross misunderstanding of the Sabbath lies in your neglect to understand its historical scope, meaning, place in our lives, and Messianic kingdom realization. YOU make God lie throughout the scriptures, cj, by your casual insistence that God's holy day established at creation, claimed and promoted by God for all and set apart is not important. God apparently thought He did by putting so many provisions outside man's experience on the Sabbath.

Your 'dumbing down' the Sabbath to merely some arbitrary OT law given by Moses is completely false and total lack of understanding of the nature of the Sabbath.

It is you who may be facing serious judgement by your cavalier trampling of God's law of love and standard. Your views are merely Pharisaic in another direction.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Those of us who believe the 10 commandments are still binding obey out of love just like those who believe they are 'under grace' (another misunderstood concept).

This is a lie from the pit of hell

That WAS 'righteous anger' with a mix of drama, wasn't it, cj ...?

In love,

Really ...? :smt052

cj

 

[Imagican]

Ok, ok.

CJ, you took some of my words right out of my mouth concerning those comments about ANYONE obeying the ten commandments. Someone even thinking that they can obey something that they obviously don't even understand is quite confused.

Christ told us that if we even think of these things that we've ALREADY committed them in our hearts. There is NOT ONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE. What does that mean guys? If we were capable of keeping the commandments then THERE WOULD BE SOME THAT WERE RIGHTEOUS, but there aren't ANY.

And I still would like to offer that the reply to my original comment, that it is possible to keep the fourth commandment, is obviously misunderstanding also.

I already tried to point out, (and those that have read the Bible already understand, I hope), in order to follow the fourth you MUST follow ALL of the fourth. That means that the many many individual laws that go along with the original commandment.

Have you forgotten WHO the commandments were given to in the first place? So, if the Hebrews were given the commandments in the first place and all the other law of Sabbath was given by the same man from the same God to the same people, then wouldn't you have to learn and obey ALL THE LAW OF THE SABBATH?

So, I think that it is really short-sighted for ANYONE to claims to obey the Sabbath. Even those that go to churches on Sunday are lost in this case. Saturday was the original Sabbath day from the beginning. Then, they not only choose to ignore this fact but jump in their cars and drive to the churches. Wake up folks.

Really no need for me to point out all that pertains to the laws of the Sabbath. Suffice is to say that I, (me personally), know Jews that try their best to remain orthodox and follow these laws and still fall short.

We are no longer bound by the ten commandments or ANY LAW. We are to be bound to Christ, and through His death, the ultimate sacrifice has been offered. Believe it not.

As our relationship grows, our desire for self will shrink, thus allowing us to obey God's will through a changing of Spirit, NOT simply to obey for fear of sinning. Anyone that thinks that they can 'MAKE' themselves a Christian by following ANYTHING other than Christ is simply fooling themselves.

 

[Vic C.]

... Saturday was the original Sabbath day from the beginning....

Just a minor point... There was no "Saturday" at or even near the beginning. Sabbath begins at sunset of the sixth day and ends sunset of the seventh day.

 

[cj]

That WAS 'righteous anger' with a mix of drama, wasn't it, cj ...?

Call it as You see it SB, the questions that the Lord will ask you are not the questions He will ask me.

That said,for me its simply a matter of speaking the truth.

But understand this, the truth will always inflict terror on the lie; light causes darkness to flee, and not just casually walk away.

Additionally, the inherent opposition between the truth and the lie by nature is always dramatic in confrontation. Therefore, I don't need to add/mix-in anything. Just speak the truth, and like it or not, the confrontation will unfold.

Really ...?

Yes, really.



In love,
cj

 

[guibox]

That said,for me its simply a matter of speaking the truth..Additionally, the inherent opposition between the truth and the lie by nature is always dramatic in confrontation. Therefore, I don't need to add/mix-in anything. Just speak the truth, and like it or not, the confrontation will unfold.

Yes. Obeying the commandments of God is straight "from the pits of hell" but cj, that locust-eating, fasting-in-the-wilderness, prophet can say that God can create man, knowing that he will sin and then choose for that person to be burned in that fire forever is simply...'okay'.

Yep...der's truth in dem der words.

But understand this, the truth will always inflict terror on the lie; light causes darkness to flee, and not just casually walk away.

Aaaah!!! Why are my feet all of a sudden feeling like they need to run? Help, I can't control them!!! Ahhh!! I'm feeling terror all of a sudden! :o

Forum, please forgive my sarcasm but does anybody else here hear the flames licking at cj's feet as he burns at the stake of martyrdom?

I have a hard time (and it angers me somewhat) that you have exalted yourself above me with your false doctrine and tell me that I speak lies when I say I follow the Lord's commandments.

Give me a break and quit being so 'holier then thou'. You should really be ashamed of yourself for your rhetoric

 

[Heidi]

Those of us who believe the 10 commandments are still binding obey out of love just like those who believe they are 'under grace' (another misunderstood concept).

This is a lie from the pit of hell, for the truth is none keep all ten commandments at the same time. God Himself has declared this in His word.

A little dramatic aren't you, cj? :roll:
I take it you go out and kill and steal and commit adultery and worship false gods, then? No? I guess you're keeping the law, aren't you?

You make me laugh, cj. Obedience and love work hand in hand. "Faith without works is dead" "Do we then make void the law through faith? Nay we establish the law!". You think we aren't supposed to do anything?? Your problem is thinking that as soon as we try and obey some law we are working our way to heaven or something. Give me a break.

I guess you observe the law in your heart completely as an automaton without any conscious choice on your own?

"If YOU love me, KEEP my commandments."

There is a conscious choice to obey out of love. The spirit and grace don't work in a vacuum, cj.

You are a liar if you say you have kept all ten commandments at the same time even for a second.

No. I am a liar if I say I have no sin and that I'm righteous because I keep the commandments. Again I ask...do you steal sin and destroy or have you made a conscious effort through the spirit not to do these things?

Men lie when they say they are keeping the 4th commandment by keeping the OT form of Saturday rest and worship.,
cj

i guess both Christ and Paul were liars as well as they kept the Sabbath. Again, your's and Heidi's gross misunderstanding of the Sabbath lies in your neglect to understand its historical scope, meaning, place in our lives, and Messianic kingdom realization. YOU make God lie throughout the scriptures, cj, by your casual insistence that God's holy day established at creation, claimed and promoted by God for all and set apart is not important. God apparently thought He did by putting so many provisions outside man's experience on the Sabbath.

Your 'dumbing down' the Sabbath to merely some arbitrary OT law given by Moses is completely false and total lack of understanding of the nature of the Sabbath.

It is you who may be facing serious judgement by your cavalier trampling of God's law of love and standard. Your views are merely Pharisaic in another direction.

What you forget, guibox, is that Jesus tells us that if we are even angry with our brother in our hearts, we are subject to judgment. Again, you are doing what the Pharisees do, trying to clean your cup from the outside instead of having Jesus clean it from the inside. If you even knew your insides, then you would not say that you never break the Ten Commandments! Sorry, but you are no better than anyone else. So you're not fooling us, and you certainly aren't fooling God! You are showing that all of youre beliefs are pharisiacal which is why you think you're still under Sabbath law just like the Pharisees do.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What you forget, guibox, is that Jesus tells us that if we are even angry with our brother in our hearts, we are subject to judgment.

But, Heidi ...have you not been telling us forever that we're not subject to judgment since we're no longer under the Law?

Now I'm REALLY confused! Evidently you are NOT under the Law but guibox IS! And, forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's on account of the fact that guibox isn't filled with the Holy Spirit like YOU are ...correct? Do you make up your own convenient commandments as you go, Heidi?

 

[guibox]

Again, you are doing what the Pharisees do, trying to clean your cup from the outside instead of having Jesus clean it from the inside. If you even knew your insides, then you would not say that you never break the Ten Commandments! Sorry, but you are no better than anyone else. So you're not fooling us, and you certainly aren't fooling God! You are showing that all of youre beliefs are pharisiacal which is why you think you're still under Sabbath law just like the Pharisees do.

Who so anything about not breaking them?? This is where you people are so one tracked. You miss half the stuff discussed about this. I never said I never break them, I said I obey them (or try to). Why? Because I love God and I keep what He says out of love. I fall and I am sinful, but obedience and a heart given to be changed is all that He asks. Thank God we have an Advocate with the Father.

What don't you people get about all this??

 

[cj]

That said,for me its simply a matter of speaking the truth..Additionally, the inherent opposition between the truth and the lie by nature is always dramatic in confrontation. Therefore, I don't need to add/mix-in anything. Just speak the truth, and like it or not, the confrontation will unfold.

Yes. Obeying the commandments of God is straight "from the pits of hell"

But you're not "obeying the commandments of God Guibox.

And in this, your convincing yourself that you in some way are obeying the commandments of God, we can see the influence of hell; for hell sends the deception.

but cj, that locust-eating, fasting-in-the-wilderness, prophet can say that God can create man, knowing that he will sin and then choose for that person to be burned in that fire forever is simply...'okay'.

CJ didn't say it, the bible, which is God's speaking,... said it.

Yep...der's truth in dem der words.

Mock God and His words all you want, ain't me going be smelling of smoke. At least not from your errors that is.

I have a hard time (and it angers me somewhat) that you have exalted yourself above me with your false doctrine and tell me that I speak lies when I say I follow the Lord's commandments.

And that anger is of what..... God?

No, I think not. Your offended feelings are your own, and they come from the same place where you find your false belief that you are "keeping" God's commandments.

I haven't exalted myself above you or anyone else, I'm simply saying what the bible says.

Show me where I'm in error,.... by using the bible.

Give me a break and quit being so 'holier then thou'. You should really be ashamed of yourself for your rhetoric

Again, show me where I'm speaking something that is out of line with what the bible says.

Sticks and stones hurt, but silly words mean nothing.

In love,
cj

 

[SputnikBoy]

Well, I don't know about anyone else on this thread, but I haven't got a clue what either you or Heidi are talking about any more, cj. That's assuming that I knew what you were talking about to begin with. You're both so cryptic that articulating with you guys in plain English just doesn't seem to do it any more.

Heidi claims to keep the commandments out of love for God. Great! On the other hand, however, she claims that ANYONE ELSE who keeps the commandments do so not out of love for God but for devious reasons. :smt037

And, it's anybody's guess what YOU do with the commandments, cj, since you regard them as coming from the pits of hell.:smt074

Assuming we had sanity to begin with, is there any chance we can return to it on this thread? :smt102

 

[Heidi]

I'm saying that love is how we keep the commandments, Sputnik. Therefore if we covet, instead of trying to stop coveting which is impossible like Paul says in Romans 7:7, that the law 'do not covet' actually breeds covetous desires in us, we simply ask for forgiveness for it and that forgiveness we then give to our neighbor which will lead us not to hate him or covet anything he has.

That is what it means to be under grace, not under law. We cannot obey the law by our own will because as Paul says, it actually backfires and we sin even more! Trying not to sin on our own is like trying not to think of an elephant once someone has told us not to. It's impossible. Therefore we are no longer slaves to the law but it now exists only to convict us of sin. Once we are convicted, we simply ask for forgiveness and God's forgiveness replaces our previous sin.

I would suggest that you read the whole bible and make sure that your interpretations don't contradict the bible instead of asking us to give you ours. The truth can only be found in the bible. We all break the commandments at times but all we have to do is ask God for forgiveness and he replaces our sins with love and forgiveness until one day, all we have is love and forgiveness inside. That day will be when our flesh dies and we enter heaven. Spritual growth is a process of Christ litlle by little, replacing our sins with love and forgiveness.

 

[guibox]

That is what it means to be under grace, not under law. We cannot obey the law by our own will because as Paul says, it actually backfires and we sin even more! Trying not to sin on our own is like trying not to think of an elephant once someone has told us not to. It's impossible. Therefore we are no longer slaves to the law but it now exists only to convict us of sin. Once we are convicted, we simply ask for forgiveness and God's forgiveness replaces our previous sin.

Thank you, Heidi. You've just summed up the Adventist/Sabbatarian doctrine quite nicely.

What are we arguing for?

Perhaps you and cj can't seem to wrap your minds around how we view the law. Your legalistic mindset seems to be tainting your perspective.

and cj...I won't even waste my breath answering you. If you can't see the ignorance and eltism of your post but would rather blame it on the bible speaking, I can't help you.