Jesus has saved us; we have the Holy Spirit; Now What?

[GodsGrace]

There are difficulties in doctrines. Few, if any of them agree. Here for example we take a 'reasonable' approach with the Nicene Creed as a basic and essential understanding. I'm fine with those determinations and agree with them without any dispute. But, were we to get hypercritical, even a word or two here or there CAN bring trouble, such as defining what constitutes "apostolic." That will in fact vary dramatically from sect to sect and we can and will find non-agreement there. Even while "pretending" there is agreement. You see the dilemma, I hope?

Just to take the Nicene Creed, it was very badly worded as you must know. It was decided that the one from 325 was correct, but I don't like the wording of that one either. It makes it sound like Jesus came into being at some point in time. The word "hell" doesn't appear anywhere in the N.T. at least not in the way it's meant by us. Except for 2 James 2:4 but it was a place for fallen angels. So does this mean hell doesn't exist?
Then I see this "hot button issue" here on these threads. Who believes salvation could be lost and who doesn't. I believe it could be lost. Then I start getting reprimanded because I believe in "works." Eventually, I'll figure out what one has to do with the other.
Jesus preached works. Paul preached grace. With works. It could get confusing. We've picked the bible apart too much. Each sect has made it's own determination as to what each passage means. It's man putting his own ideas into God's words. We're not pure - so our understanding could not be pure. All I'll say is that God will be able to look past all this. I wish Jesus had been clearer on some matter, like the above for instance.

"Apostolic". Authority that was passed down from the apostles to the next generations of teachers, elders, bishops, etc. The Apostolic church - the original church. The universal church. We do have to be thankful for the early church. It kept the faith beliefs pure so that they would not be poisoned by heresies. It must not have been easy - no iPhones or email back then.

There are OTHER doctrines that are just as important if not more important than the Nicene Creed. For example, I take Romans 13:8-10 as the most critical doctrine, coupled with 1 Cor. 13 and other clearly dictated doctrines that are in direct line to these dictates. This particular doctrine has actually fallen far far away from ALL the churches. Following these doctrines vary, literally, almost down to each individual.

Smaller, if these two doctrines were followed, we would need no others - as Jesus Himself said.
Love your neighbor as yourself covers all the commandments. This can be taken wrongly too. If I love myself too much it turns to vanity or narcissism. Man can take anything, even God ideas, and get them mixed up with satan's ideas. It's in our nature not to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Believers during Paul's time were STILL laboring in studies, Word and in doctrine. 1 Tim. 5:17. We are to study to show "ourselves," individually, as "approved." And not just fall into taking the authority of some other man or sect. That I can not do unless I consider their deliberations legitimate to scriptural discourse "myself."

Yes. But they were to study what the Apostles taught and those after them. NOT what each of them thought individually. I must say, though, that some doctrine of some churches has come to make little sense to me theologically and from scripture. How can we know the truth? I do think we have to stay close to the bible. I do believe in solA scriptura. When we stray from that we create a web of problems.

Doctrines vary. And a lot of them are bad, and in some cases, sick and hypocritical. It IS the obligation of "each" believer to follow the dictates of their own conscience and to bear their own burdens, pay attentions to their own "works" and work out their "own" salvation.

I do think we must work out our own salvation. God will judge us on what we know and truly believe - not on other believers faith. But how about finding a church you could feel comfortable in? it's good to be with other believers.

PART I

 

[GodsGrace]

PART II

And not just "buy" into everything that comes down the doctrinal pipeline from innumerable sectarian sights. Even the Apostles disputed among themselves as to what was right. Paul called Peter out on hypocrisy for example in Galatians. Barnabus and Paul had issues. Believers abandoned Paul. Apostles had to deal with various forms of "legalism" and "false authority" and "false claims" among believers, even then. These things have NOT passed away from the arena of belief in Christ.

This is why I said what I did before. I wish Jesus had been more clear. A church (of a big denomination) near here is saying that Jesus is the closest to what God would want and then we get farther away with Paul and the letters and then farther with church documents. I'd say this is a good change and a necessary one.

There are some things that I take personally, very seriously from Jesus and from Paul that FEW, if any, can accept. So, what's a person to do? They follow what they, individually, think is RIGHT. It can be no other way. No one else is going to be answering to God for another person. We are all individually accountable for the life we have been given.

I believe I said your last sentence up there somewhere. I believe this very strongly. Can we say that there are two types of revelation. Revelation that is general and for the entire Church. It could be the written word, it could be a sermon based on the Word, Then there's personal revelation. God may have a special message for us only. He may wish to explain something in a way that only we can understand. He reveals something special to help us personally in our walk. This is personal however, and I wonder if it should even be shared since others may not even understand.

I'm quite a fan of solA scriptura myself. But, really, I still listen for Gods dictates in my own life, constantly, by Living Word. That takes faith, personally applied. We can derive a lot of things from retrospect, but our sights should always be forward and should have goals or at least 'a goal.' And this also, is missing in some or a lot of sects.

My goal of faith in Christ is for change. That means "I" must seek Him for that "change." That also means that currently, you, I and everyone else is technically WRONG in the present situation. And nobody likes to hear that now, do they?

You mean transformation. We're required to change. But some will label that works. Technically we're wrong in our present situation - that's why we need Jesus, Smaller. We're right in Him. How many have heard the following words. Many were affected by them, and many weren't. We're in a sad state of affairs.

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change
Man in the Mirror
Michael Jackson

Wondering

 

[for_his_glory]

God gave all power unto Jesus in heaven and in the earth. This means even today Jesus has power in heaven and in the earth to make disciples, of whom we are who are through the Spiritual rebirth, and God will call those who He chooses to become apostles (Pastors). The 11 were specially chosen by Jesus to follow Him as He would make them fishers of man as even today many are called to be fishers of man as they follow Jesus and receive power from God and the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

1. disciples are called to follow Jesus as He went about teaching the kingdom of God, Matthew 4:18-23
2. disciples are called to teach all nations, Matthew 28:16-20
3. disciples are called to wait in the upper room
4. disciples became apostles after they were called to the upper, received power and were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues so when they were sent out to the nations they could speak the language.

Read all of Acts chapters 1-2 as I am only using a few scriptures from these two chapters to show that all the gifts are for today as they were when the disciples became apostles. They were sent by God and went out to the nations establishing that of Gods true Church being the body of Christ. All generations from that time until the last day will have an anointed leader/Pastor called of God, empowered by God and filled with the Holy Spirit to speak all truth by the words the Holy Spirit speaks through them as they teach the congregation baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

 

[Jim Parker]

God will call those who He chooses to become apostles (Pastors).

An apostle is not a pastor. Apostles preach, teach, appoint elders and move on to the next project.
The senior elder is a pastor. He stays with the congregation and leads them.
Jesus gave the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. (Eph 4) Those are five separate ministries.

disciples are called to teach all nations, Matthew 28:16-20

Those 11 were apostles.

isciples became apostles after they were called to the upper, received power and were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues so when they were sent out to the nations they could speak the language.

Sorry, wrong again. See: Luke 6:12-16
You've got some confusion going on there.

 

[for_his_glory]

An apostle is not a pastor. Apostles preach, teach, appoint elders and move on to the next project. The senior elder is a pastor. He stays with the congregation and leads them. Jesus gave the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. (Eph 4) Those are five separate ministries. Those 11 were apostles. Sorry, wrong again. See: Luke 6:12-16 You've got some confusion going on there.

You are correct as apostles came to establish the Church and I knew that. I should have said apostles and Pastors in stead of putting Pastor in parenthesis.

Yes, the 11 were Apostles, but only after the upper room experience found in Acts Chapter 1 as in John 20:26-31 Jesus stilled call them disciples. If you take a closer look at Luke 6:13 you will read, whom also he named apostles referencing to Acts 1:2 as at that time Jesus spent forty days with them giving them commandments and teaching them things about the kingdom of God before they were sent out on their various mission trips as Apostles and no longer disciples.

As disciples they heard the teachings of Jesus as they accepted Him as a prophet teacher, but had no true understanding of what they were hearing or even who Jesus truly was. Peter denied knowing Jesus three times, Matthew 26:69-75, and Thomas even had doubt who Jesus was until proof was given him, John 20:25-31. After Jesus spent forty days teaching them and giving them signs that are not written in the book was Jesus taken up and the Holy Spirit brought down to them to make them Apostles, Acts Chapter 2.

 

[Jim Parker]

I do think we must work out our own salvation.

Phl 2:12 (RSV) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Paul was just kidding?

God will judge us on what we know and truly believe

:shock NO! NO! NO!

Jesus said: (John 5:28-29 NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said: (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

And read Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus specifically said He will judge according to what people did and did not do. HE doesn't mention anything about what people know or believe. <aside>(I sometimes wonder if the Devil invented theology so that believers would fight about it and the Kingdom of God would be divided against itself.)</aside>

But how about finding a church you could feel comfortable in? it's good to be with other believers.

How about a church that preaches the gospel so faithfully that you feel UN-comfortable about sin in your life so that you mourn for your sins and hunger and thirst after righteousness?

You will be veeeeery comfortable when you get to heaven.

In this life, "They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me." (Jhn 16:2-3 RSV)

Consider what devout Muslim fundamentalists are doing to Christians right now in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, etc. They're murdering and raping and enslaving Christians as a service to their pagan god, "Allah."

Consider the hatred for Christians expressed by the entertainment industry, academia, Planned Parenthood, and every other left wing person, political party, or organization.

No comfort yet. But, keep your eyes on the prize.
Phl 3:8-13 (RSV) Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
(OOOHrah!)

iakov the fool




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[GodsGrace]

Phl 2:12 (RSV) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Paul was just kidding?

Help me out Jim Parker
I can't find where I said the above. So I'm working in the dark, but I'll give it a shot.
I agree with Philippians 2:12 so I don't know why you're asking me if Paul was kidding. I don't think he was the kidding type.

:shock NO! NO! NO!

Jesus said: (John 5:28-29 NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said: (Ro 6:2-10 NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

And read Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus specifically said He will judge according to what people did and did not do. HE doesn't mention anything about what people know or believe. <aside>(I sometimes wonder if the Devil invented theology so that believers would fight about it and the Kingdom of God would be divided against itself.)</aside>

Well, what do you think? God will judge us on what other people believe? I could only know what I know. I can't know what I don't know. Or believe what I don't know. God will judge me on what I know. Was I speaking about my Catholic friends, I wonder. They know to do works. That's okay. That's what they know. If they love Jesus and have the doctrine wrong, you think they'll end up in hell? Jesus came to save. We depend on HIM, not on DOCTRINE. He'll get us to heaven not whether or not we believe in OSAS or purgatory or predestination, etc. In fact, I think God is pretty entertained - how we try to figure out and understand that which is not understandable. I think Jesus taught us all we need to know. Then man went and made everything difficult. All those early church fathers and Fathers of the desert thinking all the time about this and that. You could call it progressive revelation, I have no problem with it. But it does get kind of complicated. I like the Didache myself. Easy, straightforward and probably written by the Apostles before the end of the first century. Is it really necessary to believe all the additional concepts and doctrine and even dogma.

How about a church that preaches the gospel so faithfully that you feel UN-comfortable about sin in your life so that you mourn for your sins and hunger and thirst after righteousness?

You will be veeeeery comfortable when you get to heaven.

In this life, "They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me." (Jhn 16:2-3 RSV)

Consider what devout Muslim fundamentalists are doing to Christians right now in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, etc. They're murdering and raping and enslaving Christians as a service to their pagan god, "Allah."

Consider the hatred for Christians expressed by the entertainment industry, academia, Planned Parenthood, and every other left wing person, political party, or organization.

No comfort yet. But, keep your eyes on the prize.
Phl 3:8-13 (RSV) Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
(OOOHrah!)

Re being comfortable in a church. I know what you mean. How about stopping to understand what I mean?
If I believe I could lose my salvation, why would I want to be in a church that tries to convince me I can't? If I have pentecostal tendencies why would I be in a Catholic or Lutheran church? This is what I mean by being comfortable. NOT hearing some nice sermon that does not preach the cross of Christ and His teachings.
I was probably speaking to a solo scriptura person and trying to tell them they should go to a church and be led and not try to figure out the bible all on their own since it's not easy and there are different aspects to be considered, as you well know.

Regarding deeds. I'm living under grace and not under the Law. But the Law is not abolished and I'm required to keep it. Those against works on these threads get upset with me at times. I don't think you could call on the name of the Lord and then sit back and do nothing the rest of your life. The New Covenant comes in at this point. I accept the sacrifice of Jesus so I'm under the New Covenant. All it says is that He will give me the strength to follow the Law. Not only is it revealed, but it can't be lived. (well, most of the time).

I don't understand why you're posting Philippians 3:8-13. I agree with it and all of scripture. And I don't see my original statement so I'll let it go.

BUT, regarding what fundamentalist muslims are doing to Christians in the Middle East, is this just a coincidence or are you referring to my posts on
Why Do So Many Christians Support War and Killing and
I Hate To Tell You Donald

You should check them out if you're statements are just a coincidence. You would find it interesting.

Wondering










By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (Hiyah!)
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result. 2
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. (BYE!)[/QUOTE]

 

[Jim Parker]

Help me out Jim Parker
I can't find where I said the above. So I'm working in the dark, but I'll give it a shot.
I agree with Philippians 2:12 so I don't know why you're asking me if Paul was kidding. I don't think he was the kidding type.

MY BOOBOO!!!! I misread your comment.

Well, what do you think? God will judge us on what other people believe?

I was pointing out that Jesus said He would judge us on what we did or did not do and won't ask about what we believe.

Re being comfortable in a church. I know what you mean. How about stopping to understand what I mean?
If I believe I could lose my salvation, why would I want to be in a church that tries to convince me I can't? If I have pentecostal tendencies why would I be in a Catholic or Lutheran church? This is what I mean by being comfortable. NOT hearing some nice sermon that does not preach the cross of Christ and His teachings.

Ah SO des ka ne! (Japanese for, "OH!")Now I understand! That makes sense.
Although, I am also of Pentecostal persuasion and I find myself worshiping in a Russian Orthodox Church. (Am I an Orthocostal???)

I was probably speaking to a solo scriptura person and trying to tell them they should go to a church and be led and not try to figure out the bible all on their own since it's not easy and there are different aspects to be considered, as you well know.

Yes. I find it puzzling that believers, basing their beliefs on their inspired, inerrant, sola scriptura, have managed to generate some 45,000 denominations.

Regarding deeds. I'm living under grace and not under the Law. But the Law is not abolished and I'm required to keep it. Those against works on these threads get upset with me at times. I don't think you could call on the name of the Lord and then sit back and do nothing the rest of your life. The New Covenant comes in at this point. I accept the sacrifice of Jesus so I'm under the New Covenant. All it says is that He will give me the strength to follow the Law. Not only is it revealed, but it can't be lived. (well, most of the time).

Well put.
The law was never intended to save anyone. God told the Jews that if they kept His commands, they would prosper and live long in the land he would give them. There was no mention of eternal life, just, live long and prosper. (That's where Leonard Nemoy got it.) God has always forgiven the sins of a repentant person (like David's murder Uriah the Hittite and his adultery with Uriah's wife) but the wages of sin remain death. Jesus overcame death by His death and resurrection and invites all of mankind to be united to Him in His resurrected eternal life.

BUT, regarding what fundamentalist Muslims are doing to Christians in the Middle East, is this just a coincidence or are you referring to my posts on Why Do So Many Christians Support War and Killing and I Hate To Tell You Donald
You should check them out if you're statements are just a coincidence. You would find it interesting.

Yup. Co-inki-dink.

iakov the fool


By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (Hiyah!)
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result. 2
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. (BYE!)[/QUOTE]

 

[Hospes]

Wondering and JP, what do you think sola scriptura indicates?

 

[iLOVE]

It's the object of our faith that is so very important. Every believer talks about faith; however, most believers do not understand that for our faith to be recognized by God, its object must always be the finished work of Christ (Jesus Christ and Him crucified 1 Cor. 1:23). Faith in anything else is preaching "another Jesus," which the Lord, of course, cannot honor 2 Cor.11:4.

 

[Malachi]

Wondering and JP, what do you think sola scriptura indicates?

Sola Scriptura = Scripture as the sole and final authority. Connecting this back to the OP, the indwelling Holy Spirit uses the written Word of God for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction is righteousness (2 Tim 3:16,17). Indeed, the written Word and the Holy Spirit are inseparable (Heb 4:12,13).

 

[Jim Parker]

Wondering and JP, what do you think sola scriptura indicates?

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone") is the Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice. Sola scriptura does not deny that other authorities govern Christian life and devotion, but sees them all as subordinate to and corrected by the written word of God. (WIkipedia)
That's a technical definition.
How it is applied by folk that I have encountered is as an excuse to reject anything they perceive as not being properly Protestant. So, a commentary on a passage by the 5th century preacher St. John Chrysostom might be rejected out of hand as being "the traditions of man" but a commentary by John MacArthur expounded on his "Grace to You" radio show would be really good teaching.
Also, what a given individual believes based on what he's heard in church and at Bible studies is exactly what the scriptures teach while the teaching of the Cappadocians (St. Gregory the Great, St Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Basil) along with St. Athanasius might all be found to be, again, just the "traditions of men."
SO, in a nutshell, while the technical definition defines a proper Christian attitude toward scripture, in practice, it often boils down to "what I think scripture says." (Usually in spite of a lack of any formal training in Biblical languages, exegesis, or logic.)
Hope that answers your question.

jim

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering and JP, what do you think sola scriptura indicates?

Good morning Hospes
We posters misunderstand each other at times. It's not easy.
I had said SOLO scriptura and JP understood SOLA scriptura.
Here's how I understand both:

SOLO. A person sits at home and reads the bible. He comes to his own conclusions as to what it all means. Not an easy task. The first time I read the bible I totally ignored the O.T. because it was too much to take in. When I read the N.T. I found it easier but many parts were mysterious to say the least. Jesus speaking to the woman at the well:
It's Not Right To Give The Children's Bread To The Dogs. Huh? (Mathew 15) Thank God I knew Jesus enough by then to know He couldn't mean it the way it sounded!

SOLA. Using only the bible for a church's doctrine. No Tradition. Only the written word. So at least now we have theologians, exegesis, hermeunetics, etc. Of course, as JP said, each and every nuance has its own church and I'm sure this is not what Jesus wanted - but we're only human and I'm praying He'll make an allowance for that!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

MY BOOBOO!!!! I misread your comment.

I was pointing out that Jesus said He would judge us on what we did or did not do and won't ask about what we believe.

Ah SO des ka ne! (Japanese for, "OH!")Now I understand! That makes sense.
Although, I am also of Pentecostal persuasion and I find myself worshiping in a Russian Orthodox Church. (Am I an Orthocostal???)

Yes. I find it puzzling that believers, basing their beliefs on their inspired, inerrant, sola scriptura, have managed to generate some 45,000 denominations.

Well put.
The law was never intended to save anyone. God told the Jews that if they kept His commands, they would prosper and live long in the land he would give them. There was no mention of eternal life, just, live long and prosper. (That's where Leonard Nemoy got it.) God has always forgiven the sins of a repentant person (like David's murder Uriah the Hittite and his adultery with Uriah's wife) but the wages of sin remain death. Jesus overcame death by His death and resurrection and invites all of mankind to be united to Him in His resurrected eternal life.

Yup. Co-inki-dink.

Hi JP
Your reply gave me some giggles.
Orthocostal? I'm in the same boat, actually.
Yeah. No eternal life in the O.T. Just hades, sheol, or Gehenna.
Thanks for the Spock lesson.
And you know Japanese too. :nod
I think we agree on most.

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone") is the Christian doctrine that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice. Sola scriptura does not deny that other authorities govern Christian life and devotion, but sees them all as subordinate to and corrected by the written word of God. (WIkipedia)
That's a technical definition.
How it is applied by folk that I have encountered is as an excuse to reject anything they perceive as not being properly Protestant. So, a commentary on a passage by the 5th century preacher St. John Chrysostom might be rejected out of hand as being "the traditions of man" but a commentary by John MacArthur expounded on his "Grace to You" radio show would be really good teaching.
Also, what a given individual believes based on what he's heard in church and at Bible studies is exactly what the scriptures teach while the teaching of the Cappadocians (St. Gregory the Great, St Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Basil) along with St. Athanasius might all be found to be, again, just the "traditions of men."
SO, in a nutshell, while the technical definition defines a proper Christian attitude toward scripture, in practice, it often boils down to "what I think scripture says." (Usually in spite of a lack of any formal training in Biblical languages, exegesis, or logic.)
Hope that answers your question.

jim

In a nutshell, you agree with the doctrine, but disagree with its misapplication. May I suggest that it may be a good to not use sola scriptura as a pejorative, but rather object to its misapplication. Otherwise, it seems to me you throw out the baby with the bathwater and may unintentionally cause others think there is no baby at all.

 

[Hospes]

Good morning Hospes
We posters misunderstand each other at times. It's not easy.
I had said SOLO scriptura and JP understood SOLA scriptura.
Here's how I understand both:

SOLO. A person sits at home and reads the bible. He comes to his own conclusions as to what it all means. Not an easy task. The first time I read the bible I totally ignored the O.T. because it was too much to take in. When I read the N.T. I found it easier but many parts were mysterious to say the least. Jesus speaking to the woman at the well:
It's Not Right To Give The Children's Bread To The Dogs. Huh? (Mathew 15) Thank God I knew Jesus enough by then to know He couldn't mean it the way it sounded!

SOLA. Using only the bible for a church's doctrine. No Tradition. Only the written word. So at least now we have theologians, exegesis, hermeunetics, etc. Of course, as JP said, each and every nuance has its own church and I'm sure this is not what Jesus wanted - but we're only human and I'm praying He'll make an allowance for that!

Wondering

W,

I understand what you mean using solo. I have my own phrase for it: just-me-and-Jesus Christianity. It's a dangerous place to be in that it can lead to some pretty wacko misunderstandings of God and his word. God never meant for us to fly solo; when we do, we have an enemy that finds us an easy target.

Sola scriptura properly understood and practiced is a great doctrine that safeguards many from making shipwreck of their faith. Though it seems most Christians have adopted a guilty-as-charged position to the accusation we are fractured as evidenced by all our various denominations, I think the canard falls apart under honest scrutiny. Here we all are on a forum arguing about what is correct belief, but the vast majority of us do so in a pretty confined set of boundaries. Our unity is at least on par with any other human institution striving toward significant goals.

Regarding your last sentence, my only hope is God making monstrous allowances!

 

[smaller]

You mean transformation. We're required to change. But some will label that works.

That "final change" can only come from Jesus. See Phil. 3:21. We, in and of ourselves are utterly incapable of that transformation. It is the essence of the Promise of the Gospel, that we will be Divinely Changed, transformed OUT of our vile body to His New Body. That was always the target and goal of God Himself. First the natural, then the Spirit, and both situations, of and by God Himself.

Technically we're wrong in our present situation - that's why we need Jesus, Smaller. We're right in Him.

That's a much deeper subject. Both bold sights are in fact TRUE, above. We are both right and wrong, good and evil. That's the dynamic of our current situation. We consider the work of Christ as being "right in him" because of faith, but that does not and can not logically extend to the vile flesh and all the matters we are laboriously subjected to in this present life in the natural.

How many have heard the following words. Many were affected by them, and many weren't. We're in a sad state of affairs.

I'm starting with the man in the mirror
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change
Man in the Mirror
Michael Jackson

Wondering

I had a "man in the mirror" experience many long years ago. I saw, in reality, a forthcoming pile of dust, and submitted to the Sovereignty of God as the only TRUE and Eternal. My position was adjusted with reality staring me back in the face. The man in the mirror will always have a hard time seeing himself as he really is presently, and will always think "his own work" has some value. That will not turn out to be the case for any man. The Eternal Things have always belonged only to God Himself, who has given us a "share" in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

W,

I understand what you mean using solo. I have my own phrase for it: just-me-and-Jesus Christianity. It's a dangerous place to be in that it can lead to some pretty wacko misunderstandings of God and his word. God never meant for us to fly solo; when we do, we have an enemy that finds us an easy target.

Sola scriptura properly understood and practiced is a great doctrine that safeguards many from making shipwreck of their faith. Though it seems most Christians have adopted a guilty-as-charged position to the accusation we are fractured as evidenced by all our various denominations, I think the canard falls apart under honest scrutiny. Here we all are on a forum arguing about what is correct belief, but the vast majority of us do so in a pretty confined set of boundaries. Our unity is at least on par with any other human institution striving toward significant goals.

Regarding your last sentence, my only hope is God making monstrous allowances!

Here's God at the Pearly Gate:
You were OSAS? Welcome.
You thought you could lose your salvation? Welcome.
You baptized babies? Welcome.
You thought you didn't have to do works? Welcome

etc
etc
etc

He's a big God Hospes.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

That "final change" can only come from Jesus. See Phil. 3:21. We, in and of ourselves are utterly incapable of that transformation. It is the essence of the Promise of the Gospel, that we will be Divinely Changed, transformed OUT of our vile body to His New Body. That was always the target and goal of God Himself. First the natural, then the Spirit, and both situations, of and by God Himself.

That's a much deeper subject. Both bold sights are in fact TRUE, above. We are both right and wrong, good and evil. That's the dynamic of our current situation. We consider the work of Christ as being "right in him" because of faith, but that does not and can not logically extend to the vile flesh and all the matters we are laboriously subjected to in this present life in the natural.

I had a "man in the mirror" experience many long years ago. I saw, in reality, a forthcoming pile of dust, and submitted to the Sovereignty of God as the only TRUE and Eternal. My position was adjusted with reality staring me back in the face. The man in the mirror will always have a hard time seeing himself as he really is presently, and will always think "his own work" has some value. That will not turn out to be the case for any man. The Eternal Things have always belonged only to God Himself, who has given us a "share" in Him.

You see Smaller,
I agree with you much more than you'll ever understand or accept.
Of course we are both right and wrong, good and evil. But we HAVE to be right in Him, because we cannot be right in ourselves for the reasons you state. Now you do speak a lot about the vile flesh and I'm still not sure if you mean the sin nature, or the flesh that makes that sin nature function. But, whatever you mean, we are, in the flesh, a wretched man in need of salvation and that salvation encompasses Jesus standing up for us when satan lurks near - which he always does. Satan is always a part of everything, the third party, as you say.
But:
"And in three days, He breathed again
And rose to stand in my defense."

The only comment I make to you all the time is that too much glory is given to satan by thinking about him all the time. We know he's there. We know he's not to be taken lightly. We know we shoulon't believe he's NOT there. And he's to be respected (feared?) - he does have power. Okay. Now stop and see Jesus and give Jesus the glory by making the enemy so mad because you're denying him the glory by not speaking about him all the time. Do you not see this concept at all?

W

 

[smaller]

You see Smaller,
I agree with you much more than you'll ever understand or accept.
Of course we are both right and wrong, good and evil. But we HAVE to be right in Him, because we cannot be right in ourselves for the reasons you state. Now you do speak a lot about the vile flesh and I'm still not sure if you mean the sin nature, or the flesh that makes that sin nature function.

There are more interesting matters to see under the flesh pile. We have to burrow down into the Word to see what's there and what's behind it. Few are allowed to go there, even though it's as plain as DAY.

But, whatever you mean, we are, in the flesh, a wretched man in need of salvation and that salvation encompasses Jesus standing up for us when satan lurks near - which he always does. Satan is always a part of everything, the third party, as you say.
But:
"And in three days, He breathed again
And rose to stand in my defense."

In reality Jesus is both FRIEND and FOE to all of us who believe. Few know Jesus as their FOE, Jesus AGAINST my flesh, against MY SIN. I love that side of the Word, and welcome my FOE, Jesus, with open arms, as He has shown me in His Words. You see I desire the defeat of my foe. Therefore Jesus is the FOE of my own flesh, because of the ADVERSARY. I accept His FOE aspect to my flesh, and more importantly, the workings of HIM against the adversary therein. Is He really then MY FOE, or the FOE of the Adversary? There is a Divine Block that is set there that most will not step into, because it contains a deep offense to the FLESH. But you are very close to seeing it, in the above.

The only comment I make to you all the time is that too much glory is given to satan by thinking about him all the time.

That is the entire point of the Gospel my dear. The DEFEAT of our FOE. That's what it's all about.

The flesh man won't look there because the FOE, we carry in our own hide. If we study the methods of the defeat of the FOE, we will always see the FOE RAISED prior to defeat. That sight the flesh man will run from. Just as any of you do when saying "too much credit" to the FOE or "don't pay attention" to the FOE or "Satan has been defeated" because that is NOT the case, yet.

But it will be, at the end.