Jesus in the Quran

[Fath]

Hello everyone, I'm new here, and just to help you to understand my position on Jesus you should know that I am a former Muslim(non-Arabic) and am currently what you might describe as a "messianic muslim." To understand this, all it means is that I am one who submits to the authority of the Messiah, as opposed to the authority of Muhammed(not that I believe any longer he had any authority in the first place.)

With that being said, I come here to offer you an insight into Muslims, and how they think in regards to Jesus. If it offends no one, I will quote some English translations of some specific verses from the Quran, and show to you how many Muslims failed to understand their own Quran due to not knowing the Torah/Gospel/Bible.

Hopefully this will give you an ability to reason with Muslims a bit better if you ever happen to become available to witness to one or more of them. I feel that the message of the Messiah is far too important for Muslims to not understand, and thus, the only way to speak to them is on their own turf.

One of the biggest misconceptions in Islam is the Muslim belief that Jesus was not crucified. They base this entire belief around one single verse in the Quran which says:

[004:157] And for their saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, a Messenger of God." Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him.

Now to give you some insight into the verse above, it speaks of what the Jews claim to have done to Jesus. Muhammed was at war with the Jews around the city of Medina during those days, and he harbored great hatred of them. But let me explain to you how to view this verse.

If you look carefully at the words, you will notice one word consistently. It is the word "they." Now, the "they" speaks of the Jews, therefore, I will re-write the verse and replace the word "they" with "the Jews":

[004:157] And for the Jews saying, "Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, a Messenger of God." Yet the Jews slew him not, and the Jews crucified him not, but the Jews had only similitude of him. And those Jews who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had the Jews about him, but followed only an opinion, and the Jews did not really slay him.

As you can see, the verse disputes the claim of the Jews who boasted during Muhammad's time that their ancestors were responsible for crucifying Jesus. However, most Muslims completely fail to acknowledge that the verse is speaking about the Jews, as opposed to anything relative to whether or not Jesus was crucified at all. Because of this, most Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified at all, and was never on the cross.

I know what some of you are thinking; "The verse STILL says that the Jews didn't crucify Jesus, when our bible tells you it was! So this verse is still a lie no matter how you slice and dice it."

I understand this position, I trully do. And although I absolutely believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, I will show you something that might open your eyes in the Gospel.

Here is John 18:31

Joh 18:31 Then Pilate said to them, "You take him and judge him according to your Law." But the Jews replied, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death."

Many of you might think that the above statement by the Jews appears contradictory, since they have been known to stone people to death in those days. So what did they mean? Well, it was the Feast, and during the weeklong feast it was unlawful to put a man to death according to Jewish Law. Nonethesless, they wanted Jesus dead, so they forced Pilate to do the dirty deed. Now despite Pilate washing his hands of the entire situation, his last action was this:

Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him! Away with him! Crucify him! Pilate said to them, Shall I crucify your king? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
Joh 19:16 Then Pilate delivered Him up to them that He might be crucified. And they took Jesus and led Him away.

So now you have an insight into what the cunning Muhammed was saying in that verse. But there's more. You are probably wondering what the part in the verse means that says, "but the Jews had only similitude of him."

Muhammed was greatly influneced by the Infancy Gospels that were in circulation during those days, as well as a gnostic text known as "The Apocalypse of Peter." The Peter text speaks of how the Romans crucified Jesus, but also, how they only killed the flesh, and not the actual Messiah; Spirit of Christ.

But most Muslims have no idea what their Quran actually says, and although the Quran does have some interesting things within its pages, I'm afraid it completely fails to bear the truth as such was uttered from the mouth of Jesus.

Anyways, I hope this enlightens you a bit on what Muslims believe, and what they failed to understand. You should know, however, that not one single Muslim denies that Jesus was the Messiah, and they are 100% convinced that Jesus is coming back at the end of days and will have the final word.

Peace to all of you, in the name of the Messiah.

 

[Gary]

The problem is that Muslims have no idea what "The Messiah" means.

The title Messiah comes from the Hebrew ha Mashiah, meaning "the Anointed One." Mashiah is a common Hebrew word and, in the Hebrew Old Testament, is applied to the anointed high priest (Leviticus 4:3), the nation’s king (2 Samuel 1:14), the prophets of God (Psalm 105:15) and even the Persian king Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1). All of these were anointed by God for some specific ministry or purpose, yet, from the abundance of prophecies of a supreme deliverer to come, who is called mashiah in Daniel 9:25, the people of Israel determined that a supremely anointed figure would arise whom they named the Messiah.

Because the Qur’an acknowledges this title (al-Masih) and applies it exclusively to Jesus Christ eleven times, this subject is a valid and crucial one for Christian witness to Muslims. The Qur’an, as a rule, teaches that all the prophets of God were the same and that Jesus was no more than a prophet, yet here we have a title obviously derived from its Hebrew equivalent, which to the Israelite nation implied so much more. Prophets had come and gone yet one supreme ruler, who would overshadow them all, had been promised in their prophetic writings and they longed for his coming.

The New Testament confirms that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and, while it generally uses the Greek title ho Christos ("the Christ") to describe him, it does on two occasions confirm that this is a translation of the word Messias, the Greek word for Messiah (John 1:41, 4:25). Once again, therefore, we find common ground with Muslims and you have a solid foundation from which to witness to the saving grace of our Saviour Jesus Christ and just what the title Messiah means. In the chapter on the prophecies of Isaiah I quoted a number of prophetic texts you can use in witness on this subject but a few others from other Old Testament prophets are useful as well. Here is one from the prophecy of Zechariah:

• Behold the man whose name is the Branch; for he shall grow up in his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord. It is he who shall build the temple of the Lord, and shall bear royal honour, and shall sit and rule upon his throne. Zechariah 6:12-13

It was texts like these that made the Jews expect a glorious king who would rule over the world from Jerusalem but, as we saw in the chapter on Isaiah, prophecies of his regal glory were interwoven with prophecies of suffering, obscurity and humiliation. The Jews failed to realise that he would come in humility the first time as a suffering servant to become exactly like us and, through his death on the cross, deliver us from our sins. Only at his second coming would he come as the divine ruler of the universe to establish his eternal kingdom and raise his followers to glory, to become as he is in his perfect righteousness. The Jews thought he would deliver the nation from the Romans. Jesus, God’s Messiah, came to deliver all of us from ourselves, as well as from the powers of the world, the flesh and the devil, who pull us down into a state of hostility with God.

It is important, in witnessing to Muslims on the title al-Masih, to show that all the promises made by the earlier prophets had this twofold emphasis, a suffering servant and a glorious king. The people of Israel seem to have conveniently overlooked the first, yet Muslims recognise that Jesus will have two lifetimes on earth, the first when he was God’s servant, born of Mary, and the second when he will return as a ruler of all the earth for forty years. Many Christians also hold the view that Jesus will return to reign over the earth, expecting him to govern it from Jerusalem for a period of a thousand years. In my view both the Muslims and Christians who hold this belief are making the same mistake the Jews made - expecting an earthly king who would rule from an earthly throne. The Bible makes it plain he will usher in an eternal kingdom and that he will rule directly from his Father’s throne in heaven (Revelation 3:21). You need to draw this contrast, otherwise the Messiah of God looks like nothing more than another King David.

In witnessing to Muslims on the identity of the Messiah, this point is crucial before you go into the greater work he was called to perform. He was not just another prophet in a long line of earthly messengers, he was the eternal Saviour, the anointed Messiah, who came down from heaven to reconcile men to God.

Read more:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... ssiah.html

Al-Masih: Jesus the Messiah

Jesus alone is called the Messiah in the Qur’an. No other prophet, patriarch or priest is given this title. In Arabic it is simply al-Masih. The Qur’an makes no attempt to define the title but it does award it to Jesus on no less than eleven occasions. Sometimes it is simply al-Masih, "the Messiah" (Surah 5:72), elsewhere it is al-Masihu Isa, "the Messiah Jesus" (Surah 4:157), while it also appears as al-Masihubnu Maryam, "the Messiah son of Mary" (Surah 5:17). It is a unique title, given to no one else, but applied to Jesus nearly a dozen times.

If you were to ask a Muslim what it means, he really could not tell you other than to say, "Jesus is the Messiah." The title actually has no meaning in Islam and is not derived from any Arabic word. It is an arabised form of ha-Mashiah, the Hebrew title which does have a meaning, namely "the Anointed One." The Jews had long awaited this coming figurehead, especially after his advent had been announced through all the prophets as we have seen. It was Daniel, however, who first gave the coming Son of David the express title Messiah (Daniel 9:25). Without an explanation in Islam one has to go to the Jewish and Christian scriptures to find its meaning.

More: http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... 12son.html

 

[Fath]

The problem is that Muslims have no idea what "The Messiah" means.

The title Messiah comes from the Hebrew ha Mashiah, meaning "the Anointed One." Mashiah is a common Hebrew word and, in the Hebrew Old Testament, is applied to the anointed high priest (Leviticus 4:3), the nation’s king (2 Samuel 1:14), the prophets of God (Psalm 105:15) and even the Persian king Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1). All of these were anointed by God for some specific ministry or purpose, yet, from the abundance of prophecies of a supreme deliverer to come, who is called mashiah in Daniel 9:25, the people of Israel determined that a supremely anointed figure would arise whom they named the Messiah.

Because the Qur’an acknowledges this title (al-Masih) and applies it exclusively to Jesus Christ eleven times, this subject is a valid and crucial one for Christian witness to Muslims. The Qur’an, as a rule, teaches that all the prophets of God were the same and that Jesus was no more than a prophet, yet here we have a title obviously derived from its Hebrew equivalent, which to the Israelite nation implied so much more. Prophets had come and gone yet one supreme ruler, who would overshadow them all, had been promised in their prophetic writings and they longed for his coming.

The New Testament confirms that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and, while it generally uses the Greek title ho Christos ("the Christ") to describe him, it does on two occasions confirm that this is a translation of the word Messias, the Greek word for Messiah (John 1:41, 4:25). Once again, therefore, we find common ground with Muslims and you have a solid foundation from which to witness to the saving grace of our Saviour Jesus Christ and just what the title Messiah means. In the chapter on the prophecies of Isaiah I quoted a number of prophetic texts you can use in witness on this subject but a few others from other Old Testament prophets are useful as well. Here is one from the prophecy of Zechariah:

• Behold the man whose name is the Branch; for he shall grow up in his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord. It is he who shall build the temple of the Lord, and shall bear royal honour, and shall sit and rule upon his throne. Zechariah 6:12-13

It was texts like these that made the Jews expect a glorious king who would rule over the world from Jerusalem but, as we saw in the chapter on Isaiah, prophecies of his regal glory were interwoven with prophecies of suffering, obscurity and humiliation. The Jews failed to realise that he would come in humility the first time as a suffering servant to become exactly like us and, through his death on the cross, deliver us from our sins. Only at his second coming would he come as the divine ruler of the universe to establish his eternal kingdom and raise his followers to glory, to become as he is in his perfect righteousness. The Jews thought he would deliver the nation from the Romans. Jesus, God’s Messiah, came to deliver all of us from ourselves, as well as from the powers of the world, the flesh and the devil, who pull us down into a state of hostility with God.

It is important, in witnessing to Muslims on the title al-Masih, to show that all the promises made by the earlier prophets had this twofold emphasis, a suffering servant and a glorious king. The people of Israel seem to have conveniently overlooked the first, yet Muslims recognise that Jesus will have two lifetimes on earth, the first when he was God’s servant, born of Mary, and the second when he will return as a ruler of all the earth for forty years. Many Christians also hold the view that Jesus will return to reign over the earth, expecting him to govern it from Jerusalem for a period of a thousand years. In my view both the Muslims and Christians who hold this belief are making the same mistake the Jews made - expecting an earthly king who would rule from an earthly throne. The Bible makes it plain he will usher in an eternal kingdom and that he will rule directly from his Father’s throne in heaven (Revelation 3:21). You need to draw this contrast, otherwise the Messiah of God looks like nothing more than another King David.

In witnessing to Muslims on the identity of the Messiah, this point is crucial before you go into the greater work he was called to perform. He was not just another prophet in a long line of earthly messengers, he was the eternal Saviour, the anointed Messiah, who came down from heaven to reconcile men to God.

Read more:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... ssiah.html

Al-Masih: Jesus the Messiah

Jesus alone is called the Messiah in the Qur’an. No other prophet, patriarch or priest is given this title. In Arabic it is simply al-Masih. The Qur’an makes no attempt to define the title but it does award it to Jesus on no less than eleven occasions. Sometimes it is simply al-Masih, "the Messiah" (Surah 5:72), elsewhere it is al-Masihu Isa, "the Messiah Jesus" (Surah 4:157), while it also appears as al-Masihubnu Maryam, "the Messiah son of Mary" (Surah 5:17). It is a unique title, given to no one else, but applied to Jesus nearly a dozen times.

If you were to ask a Muslim what it means, he really could not tell you other than to say, "Jesus is the Messiah." The title actually has no meaning in Islam and is not derived from any Arabic word. It is an arabised form of ha-Mashiah, the Hebrew title which does have a meaning, namely "the Anointed One." The Jews had long awaited this coming figurehead, especially after his advent had been announced through all the prophets as we have seen. It was Daniel, however, who first gave the coming Son of David the express title Messiah (Daniel 9:25). Without an explanation in Islam one has to go to the Jewish and Christian scriptures to find its meaning.

More: http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... 12son.html

Well done.

Muslims do not realized that the Messiah is one who was annointed by God. One of the annointments of the Messiah is that of one who offers salvation. Muslims view the Messiah as but another messenger of God, and one who has less authority than Muhammad.

I find this astounding because Muslims also admit that the Messiah will come back and set up God's kingdom on earth and will rule the entire earth from there.

The one thing that irks Muslims more than anything is that God raised Jesus to heaven, but Muhammad is still laying in his grave. They condemn Christians for worshipping a man in Jesus, and condemn the image of the cross, yet they build a shrine around their prophets grave and millions go there yearly to worship.

Imagine if Jesus had a grave-site? God was wise in doing what He did with Jesus, and raising him from the dead and then up to heaven. But even so, that part of Christ that he left behind, which exists in the heart of you, me and all the followers of truth, is what we worship every day, and we do not need to make a pilgrimage to any grave-site to pray and offer respects.

All we have to do is what Jesus said to do:

Joh 13:34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

And if we love one another in the spirit of Christ, it alone is worth more than all the gravesites, and all the churches, and places of worship on earth.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Imagine if Jesus had a grave-site? God was wise in doing what He did with Jesus, and raising him from the dead and then up to heaven. But even so, that part of Christ that he left behind, which exists in the heart of you, me and all the followers of truth, is what we worship every day, and we do not need to make a pilgrimage to any grave-site to pray and offer respects.

All we have to do is what Jesus said to do:

Joh 13:34 I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. As I have loved you, you should also love one another.

And if we love one another in the spirit of Christ, it alone is worth more than all the gravesites, and all the churches, and places of worship on earth.

Nicely Put!!

 

[Gary]

Thanks Fath... I agree with your last post as well.

It does point to how we should witness to Muslims. The key is Jesus.

How did you come to know our Lord and Saviour?

 

[Fath]

How did you come to know our Lord and Saviour?

Christ has always been with me since I was a small child. I have always regarded him as the greatest teacher of all time. The words he spoke hold so much truth that they are inescapable.

I was baptised many many years ago. To me it is a symbolic gesture of my recognition of the truth, which is Christ.

Even as I walked towards Islam, I took Christ with me. I had grown so accustomed to his presense, his friendship, his love, and his guidance, that there was no one else could compare to him. I trusted nobody else.

Christ walked me through the Quran, and showed me that- although there are truths within that book- they are neatly tucked between the half-truths, the ignorance, and the out and out lies.

He walked me into the lions den, and although the lions were starving, they were not permitted to touch me. The Islamic Muslims tried everything they could to take me from Christ, but how can you tear apart the truth?

This resulted in much frustration on their part, as Christ would use their own Quran against them, and they'd end up contradicting their own statements constantly. Then Christ pointed out to me that the Quran was not divinely inspired, but was actually a cleverly disguised assortment of pagan, and pseudo Christian writings of such works as The Arabic Infancy Gospel, The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

After some time, it was no longer me who was contending with the Muslims, it was Christ. But you know something? His compassion is greater than anything I could ever understand, for he said some of the most amazing things through me to them, and the result was me walking away from Islam with Christ, with 1 dozen Islamics won by Christ.

God guides us in mysterious ways huh?

 

[Bilal]

Guys, if u want to know WHY muslims have their perpective then read this:

its a long read, but interesting and will give u a better insight i hope...

here

 

[Gary]

IF Jesus was not crucified and IF we are to believe Muhammad (why would we believe him? He lied and misled..) THEN Allah (the god of Islam) spawned the world's largest religion, namely Christianity, by deception.

How ironic.

:D

 

[Bilal]

Deception? If anything you deceived yourselves. Humans have a God-given free will. You cannot say that if I commit murder, that is the Lord's fault because he allowed such a thing to happen.

Muslims wouldn't lie about Jesus, after all remember Jesus (Isa) may peace be upon him, was a prophet. Yet what was Muhammad to you? Nothing. So would you have any reason to not lie about him?

Anyway, thats not the point. The point here is Jesus (pbuh).

PS...And there is no such thing as 'God (big letter please) of Islam'. Muslims believe in one and ONLY one God. Therefore, Muslims cannot believe that they have a God, and so do Christians. If my maths isnt too rusty, thats acounts to 2 Gods, which isnt the case. Its one God.

 

[Gary]

Muhammad and Allah - the deceivers

Yes, deception. Firstly, we know Muhammad was deceptive.

Secondly, even Muhammad's god, allah, is deceptive.

Muhammad said:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not" (Q 4:157)

The Qur’an teaches (4:157) that when Jesus was about to be crucified, that Allah performed a miracle and made someone look like Jesus’ identical twin. (Simon who carried the cross is often suggested as the person who was made to look like Jesus.) This deception of Allah was so perfect that it in fact deceived even the 12 apostles into thinking Jesus was crucified on the cross, when it was really Simon "Made to look like Jesus" who was nailed to the cross.

Muslims have simply not comprehended the staggering implications of such a theology. It means that when the apostles preached Christ crucified, that they were reporting a truth, based upon the 5 senses of man! So for Muslims to claim that the New Testament story of the crucifixion of Christ is corrupted text, is wrong. It also means that Allah’s deception on the cross caused the birth of Christianity.

In other words, Muslims must admit that Allah is ultimately responsible for the creation and growth of the world’s largest religion.


:D :D

More: -here-

 

[Gary]

How did you come to know our Lord and Saviour?

Christ has always been with me since I was a small child. I have always regarded him as the greatest teacher of all time. The words he spoke hold so much truth that they are inescapable.

I was baptised many many years ago. To me it is a symbolic gesture of my recognition of the truth, which is Christ.

Even as I walked towards Islam, I took Christ with me. I had grown so accustomed to his presense, his friendship, his love, and his guidance, that there was no one else could compare to him. I trusted nobody else.

Christ walked me through the Quran, and showed me that- although there are truths within that book- they are neatly tucked between the half-truths, the ignorance, and the out and out lies.

He walked me into the lions den, and although the lions were starving, they were not permitted to touch me. The Islamic Muslims tried everything they could to take me from Christ, but how can you tear apart the truth?

This resulted in much frustration on their part, as Christ would use their own Quran against them, and they'd end up contradicting their own statements constantly. Then Christ pointed out to me that the Quran was not divinely inspired, but was actually a cleverly disguised assortment of pagan, and pseudo Christian writings of such works as The Arabic Infancy Gospel, The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

After some time, it was no longer me who was contending with the Muslims, it was Christ. But you know something? His compassion is greater than anything I could ever understand, for he said some of the most amazing things through me to them, and the result was me walking away from Islam with Christ, with 1 dozen Islamics won by Christ.

God guides us in mysterious ways huh?

Thanks Fath... that is a wonderful testimony!

Gary

 

[Fath]

Deception? If anything you deceived yourselves. Humans have a God-given free will. You cannot say that if I commit murder, that is the Lord's fault because he allowed such a thing to happen.

Muslims wouldn't lie about Jesus, after all remember Jesus (Isa) may peace be upon him, was a prophet. Yet what was Muhammad to you? Nothing. So would you have any reason to not lie about him?

Anyway, thats not the point. The point here is Jesus (pbuh).

PS...And there is no such thing as 'God (big letter please) of Islam'. Muslims believe in one and ONLY one God. Therefore, Muslims cannot believe that they have a God, and so do Christians. If my maths isnt too rusty, thats acounts to 2 Gods, which isnt the case. Its one God.

You argue from a position of religion, and I understand this and respect it.

But what is a religion without the recognition of humanity? Are we, as human beings, not accountable to our race for the things we do to each other in the name if our gods?

When the outside world looks at Islam, and how it plays out in this civilization- this modern society- we see a type of faith this is but a throw-back in history, outdated by time itself.

We see many different faces of Islam, but the face that comes forward more than any other is indeed the face of intolerance, hatred, and prejudism, and that face then contorts into a face of terror.

Is the face that Islam shows to the world ... is this the face of God? Does God hate us? Does he terrorize us? Would he lead us to use our children to blow themselves up? Does God hate the Jews in Israel so much that he calls for their total annihalation from off the face of the earth?

What god is this that you follow? Would a prophet of God give you this god?

Throughout history we see Islam waging war against the rest of mankind. We see a clash of civilizations with Islam from the past attacking the future of all of humanity.

In the 1970s we seen Muslims invade Beruit, killing the Christians for the sake of Arafat's desire to have a base in which to attack Israel. The tragedy of terror unleashed upon the middle east by Islam, and also unleashed upon the rest of the world, is not something the world will gain a tolerance for.

Sooner or later hundreds of millions of Muslims will die needlessly because the world wants peace, and the only way to achieve it will be to destroy the haters of peace.

I have witnessed much in my life, but nothing can compare to what I witness today in the world with Islam. I see a senseless religion; one without any other clear direction other than hating Jews and Christians.

Many people have their stories to tell of their experiences with Muslims, but one particular story that moved me is the story of Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebonese Christian who survived the fall of Beruit. If you want to understand how the world views Islam and Muslims, you will listen to this woman's story. On the link I provide below, you can scroll down her website, and on the left side of the page there is a link where you can watch Brigitte Gabriel's Interview.

Caution; you will be rivited and not be able to leave your computer until she is finished.

http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/index.html

Peace.

 

[Bilal]

Muhammad and Allah - the deceivers

Yes, deception. Firstly, we know Muhammad was deceptive.

Secondly, even Muhammad's god, allah, is deceptive.

Muhammad said:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not" (Q 4:157)

The Qur’an teaches (4:157) that when Jesus was about to be crucified, that Allah performed a miracle and made someone look like Jesus’ identical twin. (Simon who carried the cross is often suggested as the person who was made to look like Jesus.) This deception of Allah was so perfect that it in fact deceived even the 12 apostles into thinking Jesus was crucified on the cross, when it was really Simon "Made to look like Jesus" who was nailed to the cross.

Muslims have simply not comprehended the staggering implications of such a theology. It means that when the apostles preached Christ crucified, that they were reporting a truth, based upon the 5 senses of man! So for Muslims to claim that the New Testament story of the crucifixion of Christ is corrupted text, is wrong. It also means that Allah’s deception on the cross caused the birth of Christianity.

In other words, Muslims must admit that Allah is ultimately responsible for the creation and growth of the world’s largest religion.


:D :D

More: -here-

Gary, the discussion here is on Jesus(pbuh) not Muhammad.

But edgeways, equally could i say that God is a fabricator of confusion?

"...I make peace, and create EVIL.." [Isaiah 45:7]

"and for this cause God shall send them delusion, that they shall believe a LIE" [2 Thessalonians 2:11]

again thats not the point here...

on reply to yur 2nd part of the post, i strongly urge u to sit down and read the link i have provided, it will clarify...

Allah performed no mircale as such, it was just plain to see....

It was Judas, the betrayer who was crucified....agian if u read the link, ull see where Muslims are coming from....use logic to read through it and ull do well..

U repeatedly say that its the largest religion, bt what is the fastest growing religion in teh world? And you lot had a head start!!!

 

[Bilal]

Fath, u must realize firstly u have confused me as to what exactly ur post has to do with mine.

Next, i am faced with two contradicting sides here.

On the one hand, i was trying to explain to Gary, that God has given human a free will o do as they wish. He was suggesting that it was Allah who allowed such things to happen, so they must be right. I replied that if mass genocide happened, that too happened by the will of God, but it of course doesnt mean it was right.

Then i have u saying humans are responsbile for their actions. i dont see how that anwers me?

As fo rthe next part, it is clear to see that Muslims are the most oppressed and murdered people in the world. I could say al Christians are against jews and are mass murders to the tune of 6 million..(HITLER)

As we can see, the Americans (christians are slughtering Muslims in Iraq, and in Afghanistan) we see the Russians slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya, and we have seen the slaughtering of Muslims men and boys in Kosovo, and many more.

DO not say Muslims are the source of hate and murder....look at yourleves first, look at America and Britain....then ask yourslef the same question..

 

[Gary]

It was Judas, the betrayer who was crucified....agian if u read the link, ull see where Muslims are coming from....use logic to read through it and ull do well..

Rubbish. How would Muhammad (the deceiver) know if Jesus Christ was crucified or not?

Again, it is a nice little fairy-tale from Muhammad. He got so much history wrong. This is just another example.



Only one verse in the whole Qur’an deals with the subject of Jesus’ crucifixion. The event is strongly denied as a calumny of the Jews against him. Their intention to kill him is not discounted, but Allah is said to have honoured his prophet by saving him from their hands while a bystander, whose appearance Allah changed so that he might look like Jesus, was crucified instead. There is no mention of the relevance of the event to the Christian faith, a surprising oversight considering the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus laid down his life willingly for the salvation of all men and that this was the express purpose for the appearance of the Son of God in human form. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus there would have been no Christianity and the fact that it is central to our faith makes the omission of any reference to its Christian context in the Qur’an all the more remarkable. The verse is:

They said: "We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, messenger of Allah; but they did not kill him, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them. Those who dispute about this are full of doubts, they have no certain knowledge but follow only conjecture. Assuredly they killed him not, but Allah raised him to himself. And Allah is the Mighty, the Wise. Surah 4.157

A Critical Analysis of the Theory

Not only is the Qur’anic teaching on what happened that day embarrassingly vague but the Muslim interpretation of it, the substitution theory, is extremely vulnerable on moral grounds and does not withstand the acid test of critical analysis. The following points can effectively be raised in discussion with Muslims on this subject:


1. Why Should God have Victimised an Innocent Bystander?

If it was God’s intention to save Jesus alive by raising him to heaven, why should anyone have been crucified at all? It makes no sense. The very act of misrepresenting one man as another is a form of impersonation and we cannot accept that the "holy God who shows himself holy in righteousness" (Isaiah 5.16) would ever have done such a thing. Some Muslims say it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified (to remove the charge that an innocent bystander was crucified) but there is no identification of the victim in the Qur’an. The fact is, whoever was crucified was innocent of whatever wrongdoing Jesus was supposed to have done to warrant his death. The choice of Judas is simply an expedient to justify what God is supposed to have done that day. The Bible, however, records very clearly what happened to Judas - when he saw that Jesus was going to be crucified, in great remorse he went out and hanged himself (Matthew 27.5. See also Acts 1.18).


2. Did God not Consider Jesus’ Family and Disciples?

The second obvious objection to the Muslim theory is the effect the crucifixion would have had on those who were gathered around the cross. His mother Mary, her sister Mary the wife of Clopas, and two of his closest disciples Mary Magdalene and John the son of Zebedee, were "standing by the cross of Jesus" (John 19.25). If the person crucified was made to look exactly like Jesus, surely they would all have presumed it really was him? Why did God put the people who were closest to Jesus through the agony of watching him die? Would God have allowed his mother, revered in Islam as Bibi Maryam and the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an (Surah 3.36, 19.16), to have endured such torment purely because of an illusion of his own making? It is useful, at this point, to add that Jesus actually addressed Mary and John from the cross:

When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" John 19.26-27

This is only one of seven sayings of Jesus from the cross and it clearly shows that the person crucified not only looked like Jesus but also talked as if it was him. Only Jesus himself could have shown such compassion for his mother. Anyone else would have spent his time crying from the cross that he had been crucified by mistake. To get to the truth Muslims only have to acknowledge one thing - that it was indeed Jesus himself who was crucified!

3. Was Christianity Founded on a Hoax of God’s Making?

The third objection to the Muslim theory is that, if the man crucified was made to look like Jesus, can you blame his disciples for actually thinking it was him? They went out and preached Christ crucified, being willing to lay down their lives for the Gospel message that Jesus died to save the world from its sinfulness. Did they found the whole Christian faith on a hoax, an illusion of which God himself was the deliberate author? The substitution theory makes God out to be the source of the greatest deception in religious history. The irony is that it is this theory which is perhaps the greatest of all historical delusions, one which has bound hundreds of millions of Muslims for fourteen centuries in unbelief. Under close analysis it is found to be riddled with improbabilities.

It is important in witness to Muslims to emphasise that the Bible emphatically teaches that Jesus was crucified, that he died on the cross, and that he was raised from the dead on the third day. These two declarations, proclaimed by an angel to some of Jesus’ female disciples the day of his resurrection and by the Apostle Peter to thousands of Jewish bystanders, set forth these great truths very concisely:

I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here for he has risen, as he said. Come see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead. Matthew 28.5-7

This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. Acts 2.23-24

God is glorified in the Christian Gospel. The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his only Son, is the greatest evidence of his love for us. It is the door to eternal life. It is the source of our complete forgiveness and ultimate redemption. The Muslim theory that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place, on the contrary, is meaningless. The event served no apparent purpose other than to victimise an innocent man, traumatise the followers of Jesus, and result in the formation of a religion based on a fallacy - all of Allah’s own scheming and devising. Highly unlikely indeed!



Read more:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... chap4.html

 

[Fath]

On the one hand, i was trying to explain to Gary, that God has given human a free will o do as they wish.

But Gary is correct, you see? God has not given you anything; Muhammad did. You need to understand that I was also a Muslim, and I also know the Quran from back to front.

I tell you the truth; Muslims do not believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. Not by a long shot whatsoever.

He was suggesting that it was Allah who allowed such things to happen, so they must be right. I replied that if mass genocide happened, that too happened by the will of God, but it of course doesnt mean it was right. Then i have u saying humans are responsbile for their actions. i dont see how that anwers me?

How do you argue that humans are responsible if you believe, as a Muslim, that your journey in life is preordained? The justification for the atrocities of extremists is "I was preordained to do this," and then with that as their position, they kill the innocents and cry, "Allah Akbar!"

Do you think Christians and Jews have a God like THAT?

As fo rthe next part, it is clear to see that Muslims are the most oppressed and murdered people in the world. I could say al Christians are against jews and are mass murders to the tune of 6 million

Muslims oppress themselves. They are not permitted to think outside the box that is the Quran. Using Christianity as the scapegoat for the crimes of Hitler is ridiculous, since his theology was responsible for the deaths of millions of other Christians.

Islam teaches you this? God teaches you this? God does not teach you this; not the God of the Christians and Jews, and that's the truth.

As we can see, the Americans (christians are slughtering Muslims in Iraq, and in Afghanistan) we see the Russians slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya, and we have seen the slaughtering of Muslims men and boys in Kosovo, and many more.

You attempt to obfuscate the purpose of the war in an effort to display it in a Christian vrs Muslim light. You, like other Muslims, do not realize it isn't Christian vrs Muslims, but of Civilization vrs Barbarianism. It has nothing to do with religion

DO not say Muslims are the source of hate and murder....look at yourleves first, look at America and Britain....then ask yourslef the same question..

If the world does not act upon the barbarianism of Muslim extremists, you will continue to develop weapons of mass destruction for the sole purpose of kiling Christians and Jews. the world isn't stupid, Bilal, the evidence is clear. Yet, I look at photographs of those Muslims who protested the recent cartoons of Muhammad with violence, and one photograph that showed the position and intelligence of Muslims was one of a person holding a sign which read this:

"BEHEAD those who say that Islam is violent!"

Bilal there's much you do not know, even about your own Quran. You do not even know that Muhammad got his stories about the infancy and childhood of Jesus from three heretical works; The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Arabic Infancy Gospel, and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew.

You, like other Muslims, have absolutely no inclination to seek out information about Muhammad and the Quran from outside Islam.

Until you do, you shall remain blind.

 

[Bilal]

On the one hand, i was trying to explain to Gary, that God has given human a free will o do as they wish.

But Gary is correct, you see? God has not given you anything; Muhammad did. You need to understand that I was also a Muslim, and I also know the Quran from back to front.

I tell you the truth; Muslims do not believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. Not by a long shot whatsoever.

He was suggesting that it was Allah who allowed such things to happen, so they must be right. I replied that if mass genocide happened, that too happened by the will of God, but it of course doesnt mean it was right. Then i have u saying humans are responsbile for their actions. i dont see how that anwers me?

How do you argue that humans are responsible if you believe, as a Muslim, that your journey in life is preordained? The justification for the atrocities of extremists is "I was preordained to do this," and then with that as their position, they kill the innocents and cry, "Allah Akbar!"

Do you think Christians and Jews have a God like THAT?

As fo rthe next part, it is clear to see that Muslims are the most oppressed and murdered people in the world. I could say al Christians are against jews and are mass murders to the tune of 6 million

Muslims oppress themselves. They are not permitted to think outside the box that is the Quran. Using Christianity as the scapegoat for the crimes of Hitler is ridiculous, since his theology was responsible for the deaths of millions of other Christians.

Islam teaches you this? God teaches you this? God does not teach you this; not the God of the Christians and Jews, and that's the truth.

As we can see, the Americans (christians are slughtering Muslims in Iraq, and in Afghanistan) we see the Russians slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya, and we have seen the slaughtering of Muslims men and boys in Kosovo, and many more.

You attempt to obfuscate the purpose of the war in an effort to display it in a Christian vrs Muslim light. You, like other Muslims, do not realize it isn't Christian vrs Muslims, but of Civilization vrs Barbarianism. It has nothing to do with religion

DO not say Muslims are the source of hate and murder....look at yourleves first, look at America and Britain....then ask yourslef the same question..

If the world does not act upon the barbarianism of Muslim extremists, you will continue to develop weapons of mass destruction for the sole purpose of kiling Christians and Jews. the world isn't stupid, Bilal, the evidence is clear. Yet, I look at photographs of those Muslims who protested the recent cartoons of Muhammad with violence, and one photograph that showed the position and intelligence of Muslims was one of a person holding a sign which read this:

"BEHEAD those who say that Islam is violent!"

Bilal there's much you do not know, even about your own Quran. You do not even know that Muhammad got his stories about the infancy and childhood of Jesus from three heretical works; The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Arabic Infancy Gospel, and the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew.

You, like other Muslims, have absolutely no inclination to seek out information about Muhammad and the Quran from outside Islam.

Until you do, you shall remain blind.

What did Muhammad give me? Ho do i know that you once were a Muslim- they're is no way of proving it to be frank, for all i know you could, and probably are, a hardcore Christian- bent on driving Muslims away ffrom Islam.

We are all accountable for our actions. When questioned, are you seriously going to answer, but u gave me the power to commit murder...?

It is amazing how you take a group that u yourself label as extremists, and place them in the seat of every single Muslim. Amazing.

What was the purpose of the war? WMDs? Hmmm, they found ton-loads of those. And to think, all the lies, with the intelligence, spy shots, satellite photos, "Dodgy Dossiers" (from a university student i seem to recall), all blatant lies- straight in ur face....

Or was it just that yh Saddam was best removed- Iraq is better now...uh huh...are you even aware of the situation of Iraq?

Here, take a look (strong discretion advised); http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html

Nice try at winning a convert...i commend you...

 

[lecoop]

But Gary is correct, you see? God has not given you anything; Muhammad did. You need to understand that I was also a Muslim, and I also know the Quran from back to front.

I tell you the truth; Muslims do not believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. Not by a long shot whatsoever.

Wow! You said the truth there! We serve a different God! There is no God like Jehovah!

......and one photograph that showed the position and intelligence of Muslims was one of a person holding a sign which read this:

"BEHEAD those who say that Islam is violent!"

Bold added for empahsis)

He he he! How stupid could one sign-holder be? "Here, hold my sign, while I take off this guy's head!"

 

[Bilal]

The one thing that irks Muslims more than anything is that God raised Jesus to heaven, but Muhammad is still laying in his grave. They condemn Christians for worshipping a man in Jesus, and condemn the image of the cross, yet they build a shrine around their prophets grave and millions go there yearly to worship.

PLEASE RECTIFY THAT.....PLEASE...

its utterly misleading to say the least and it goes agianst everything Islam stands for.

Its one thing for you to say that u were once a muslim, which i am doubting ever more you post about your knowledge of islam, and it is another that you state absolute tosh (with all due respect) about Islam. Do u see why i have doubts about r claim of once being a muslims?

yet they build a shrine around their prophets grave and millions go there yearly to worship

That is utterly nonsense. Already you have been misinformed about the site of the grave of Muhammad. It is not in Makkah, its Medinah. When u say millions go to worship it- i assume u mean the hajj, where the city they visit is Makkah, now if his grave isnt there, it means they dont go on hajj in their millions to worship his grave.

It is not a shrine- a shrine is a grave or tomb that is set up for worship towards.CAN I MAKE IT ANY MORE CLEARER THAT MUSLIMS IN ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WORSHIP MUHAMMAD (PBUH) BUT RATHER WE WORSHIP ALLAH AND ALLAH ALONE. DOING SUCH A THING WOULD CONSTITUTE A MAJOR SIN IN ISLAM- SHIRK.

With all due respect, why am i explaining your so-called previous religin to you? More to the point it isnt on a small matter, rather THE most important matter of the religion, THE very tenet that islam holds on- "There is NONE worthy of worship than Allah".

U see i fail to believe you were once a muslim if u are completely wrong on THE most basic tenet of the religion.

This can only mean of 2 things:

1) You were never Muslim
2) You couldnt have studied your religion very much if you hadnt even got the basic principle (that EVEN makes you a muslim) right!!

 

[Guest]

Nobody Can interpret the Holy Quran but Mohammad and his companions and we learn from them.