Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Cleft Asunder said:
Cleft Asunder said:
Fath said:Gary said:How did you come to know our Lord and Saviour?
Christ has always been with me since I was a small child. I have always regarded him as the greatest teacher of all time. The words he spoke hold so much truth that they are inescapable.
I was baptised many many years ago. To me it is a symbolic gesture of my recognition of the truth, which is Christ.
Even as I walked towards Islam, I took Christ with me. I had grown so accustomed to his presense, his friendship, his love, and his guidance, that there was no one else could compare to him. I trusted nobody else.
Christ walked me through the Quran, and showed me that- although there are truths within that book- they are neatly tucked between the half-truths, the ignorance, and the out and out lies.
He walked me into the lions den, and although the lions were starving, they were not permitted to touch me. The Islamic Muslims tried everything they could to take me from Christ, but how can you tear apart the truth?
This resulted in much frustration on their part, as Christ would use their own Quran against them, and they'd end up contradicting their own statements constantly. Then Christ pointed out to me that the Quran was not divinely inspired, but was actually a cleverly disguised assortment of pagan, and pseudo Christian writings of such works as The Arabic Infancy Gospel, The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, and The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.
After some time, it was no longer me who was contending with the Muslims, it was Christ. But you know something? His compassion is greater than anything I could ever understand, for he said some of the most amazing things through me to them, and the result was me walking away from Islam with Christ, with 1 dozen Islamics won by Christ.
God guides us in mysterious ways huh?
Gary said:
Bilal said:
Gary said:Many of the people you list are NOT scholars... and many did not (at the time) have easy access to the Hadith (written and collected by Muhammad's followers). If they did, they would have seen who Muhammad really was.
- Were they aware that Muhammad allowed the rape of female slaves?
Were they aware that Muhammad allowed deceit so that his followers could murder those who opposed Muhammad?
Were they aware that Muhammad married and had sex with a 9 year-old child?
Did they know that Muhammad had a 120 year old man murdered (Abu Afak)?
Were they aware that Muhammad had Asma bint Marwan murdered?
Were they aware that Muhammad allowed deception so that his followers could murder Kab al-Ashraf?
Were they aware that Muhammad ordered the cruel torture and then murder of Kinana?
Were they aware that Muhammad prescribed camel urine and later (in revenge) ordered the death of the Uraynians?
The list goes on and on....
Yes, Muhammad's "fruit" was and is rotten. Immediately following his death, the rot continued. There was infighting and murder. Nothing has changed.
If God was to send a perfect example of a person to follow.... who do you think that person would be? Muhammad or Jesus Christ?Cleft Asunder said:
Gary said:Bilal said:
Rubbish. How would Muhammad (the deceiver) know if Jesus Christ was crucified or not?
Again, it is a nice little fairy-tale from Muhammad. He got so much history wrong. This is just another example.
Only one verse in the whole Qur’an deals with the subject of Jesus’ crucifixion. The event is strongly denied as a calumny of the Jews against him. Their intention to kill him is not discounted, but Allah is said to have honoured his prophet by saving him from their hands while a bystander, whose appearance Allah changed so that he might look like Jesus, was crucified instead. There is no mention of the relevance of the event to the Christian faith, a surprising oversight considering the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus laid down his life willingly for the salvation of all men and that this was the express purpose for the appearance of the Son of God in human form. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus there would have been no Christianity and the fact that it is central to our faith makes the omission of any reference to its Christian context in the Qur’an all the more remarkable. The verse is:
A Critical Analysis of the Theory
Not only is the Qur’anic teaching on what happened that day embarrassingly vague but the Muslim interpretation of it, the substitution theory, is extremely vulnerable on moral grounds and does not withstand the acid test of critical analysis. The following points can effectively be raised in discussion with Muslims on this subject:
1. Why Should God have Victimised an Innocent Bystander?
If it was God’s intention to save Jesus alive by raising him to heaven, why should anyone have been crucified at all? It makes no sense. The very act of misrepresenting one man as another is a form of impersonation and we cannot accept that the "holy God who shows himself holy in righteousness" (Isaiah 5.16) would ever have done such a thing. Some Muslims say it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified (to remove the charge that an innocent bystander was crucified) but there is no identification of the victim in the Qur’an. The fact is, whoever was crucified was innocent of whatever wrongdoing Jesus was supposed to have done to warrant his death. The choice of Judas is simply an expedient to justify what God is supposed to have done that day. The Bible, however, records very clearly what happened to Judas - when he saw that Jesus was going to be crucified, in great remorse he went out and hanged himself (Matthew 27.5. See also Acts 1.18).
2. Did God not Consider Jesus’ Family and Disciples?
The second obvious objection to the Muslim theory is the effect the crucifixion would have had on those who were gathered around the cross. His mother Mary, her sister Mary the wife of Clopas, and two of his closest disciples Mary Magdalene and John the son of Zebedee, were "standing by the cross of Jesus" (John 19.25). If the person crucified was made to look exactly like Jesus, surely they would all have presumed it really was him? Why did God put the people who were closest to Jesus through the agony of watching him die? Would God have allowed his mother, revered in Islam as Bibi Maryam and the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an (Surah 3.36, 19.16), to have endured such torment purely because of an illusion of his own making? It is useful, at this point, to add that Jesus actually addressed Mary and John from the cross:
When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" John 19.26-27
This is only one of seven sayings of Jesus from the cross and it clearly shows that the person crucified not only looked like Jesus but also talked as if it was him. Only Jesus himself could have shown such compassion for his mother. Anyone else would have spent his time crying from the cross that he had been crucified by mistake. To get to the truth Muslims only have to acknowledge one thing - that it was indeed Jesus himself who was crucified!
3. Was Christianity Founded on a Hoax of God’s Making?
The third objection to the Muslim theory is that, if the man crucified was made to look like Jesus, can you blame his disciples for actually thinking it was him? They went out and preached Christ crucified, being willing to lay down their lives for the Gospel message that Jesus died to save the world from its sinfulness. Did they found the whole Christian faith on a hoax, an illusion of which God himself was the deliberate author? The substitution theory makes God out to be the source of the greatest deception in religious history. The irony is that it is this theory which is perhaps the greatest of all historical delusions, one which has bound hundreds of millions of Muslims for fourteen centuries in unbelief. Under close analysis it is found to be riddled with improbabilities.
It is important in witness to Muslims to emphasise that the Bible emphatically teaches that Jesus was crucified, that he died on the cross, and that he was raised from the dead on the third day. These two declarations, proclaimed by an angel to some of Jesus’ female disciples the day of his resurrection and by the Apostle Peter to thousands of Jewish bystanders, set forth these great truths very concisely:
I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here for he has risen, as he said. Come see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead. Matthew 28.5-7
This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. But God raised him up, having loosed the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. Acts 2.23-24
God is glorified in the Christian Gospel. The crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, his only Son, is the greatest evidence of his love for us. It is the door to eternal life. It is the source of our complete forgiveness and ultimate redemption. The Muslim theory that someone else was crucified in Jesus’ place, on the contrary, is meaningless. The event served no apparent purpose other than to victimise an innocent man, traumatise the followers of Jesus, and result in the formation of a religion based on a fallacy - all of Allah’s own scheming and devising. Highly unlikely indeed!
Read more:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... chap4.html
Gary said:Top Signs You're a New Age Fundy
You are a New Age Fundy when .... you don't understand nor do you believe the Bible; you think Muhammad is someone to admire; you have trouble distinguishing between the actions of Muhammad (which are not questioned at all in the Quran) and the actions and consequences of some of the "heroes" in the OT.
Also, use your God-given brain. Did any of the OT prophets or characters tell you to follow them? Muhammad did. Muhammad claimed that his actions were something that you should copy.... that in his actions you have the perfect example.
Do you think Muhammad is the perfect example to follow? YES or NO?
:o :o
Soma-Sight said:
Gary said: